1993 Chevrolet P30 Food Truck Build

Just got the information from tech support regarding the inverter and battery bank setup.
 
I will need (6) "T-105" 6 Volt 225 Amp Hour Deep Cycle Golf Cart Batteries.
Putting my amp hours at 1350 allowing me to be able to pull the full 8000 watts at 666 amp hours.
 
In order to achieve the 12V necessary to operate the  8000 Watt inverter I will need to hook up the battery's series parallel meaning running 3 sets of 2.
 
Meaning I will need to connect the 3 sets of batteries somehow such as a terminal block or similar so that they are all as one.  From that terminal block you can run 4 200 amp fuses to each input to the inverter using 4awg wire (inverter has 4 separate inputs).
 
Basically the 3 set of battery banks need to be connected 3 into 1 and then the 4 inputs to the inverter need to be fused.
 
Charger:
The charger I will need is a smart charger and the Amp out will be determined on how long it will be on to replenish the battery for what you have taken out of it but not to exceed the 25% back into it.
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Based on the above, I need to only fuse the positive to the inverter correct?

I can't answer your question but I assume your going to do this correct? If so, your going to be the mad scientist that answers a BOAT LOAD of questions for a lot of people. And that's very cool. 

Dr of BBQ


I can't answer your question but I assume your going to do this correct? If so, your going to be the mad scientist that answers a BOAT LOAD of questions for a lot of people. And that's very cool. 

 
Yup, no turning back, I already ordered the $700 inverter. Trying to find a local place to buy the batteries so I can avoid the shipping charge.
 

Good for you and good luck.
 
In some areas Sam's Club carries golf cart batteries but I'm not sure of the brand/quality.

Hello Reese I work next to and have done lots of business with Swiftindustrialpower.com check their locations. I can only vouche for the one in Louisville, as I said they are my work neighbors, I know a LOT of houseboat owners  in the area and we turn them on to SWIP, I have seen MANY industrial batteries come and go, they are heavy suckers. Good luck.

Ok so how long can you run pulling a constant 8000 volts before having to recharge? And how are you going to recharge the batteries should you run out during an event?

Sorry for my lack of electrical knowledge. I'm learning as I go.

OurCoffeeTruck


Ok so how long can you run pulling a constant 8000 volts before having to recharge? And how are you going to recharge the batteries should you run out during an event?

 
I will not be pulling the full 8000 Watts. My system will use about 4K Watts max and that is if everything is on and AC which is the biggest draw will be off unless really hot outside. I over sized the inverter and battery bank so I would always only use 50% max. I will buy a big enough smart charger to charge overnight.

Uncle Groucho


Hello Reese I work next to and have done lots of business with Swiftindustrialpower.com check their locations. I can only vouche for the one in Louisville, as I said they are my work neighbors, I know a LOT of houseboat owners  in the area and we turn them on to SWIP, I have seen MANY industrial batteries come and go, they are heavy suckers. Good luck.

 
I will look them up, thanks.

reese77
I will not be pulling the full 8000 Watts. My system will use about 4K Watts max and that is if everything is on and AC which is the biggest draw will be off unless really hot outside. I over sized the inverter and battery bank so I would always only use 50% max. I will buy a big enough smart charger to charge overnight.

 

reese77


Just got the information from tech support regarding the inverter and battery bank setup.

I will need (6) "T-105" 6 Volt 225 Amp Hour Deep Cycle Golf Cart Batteries.
Putting my amp hours at 1350 allowing me to be able to pull the full 8000 watts at 666 amp hours.
  ...

 
amp-hour = 1 amp for 1 hour  ... 6 batteries @225 AHr =1350 AHr
Inverter: 8000 watt @ 120 volt (output)= 800 watt @ 12 volt (input) = 66.67 amps
 
service time: 1350 AHr / 66.67 amps = 20.25 hr
Efficiencies of the system was neglected, so I think your actual operating time will be about 12 to 15 hours (at full load), 60% to 75% efficiency.

Correction,   connecting 2 batteries in series to increase voltage does not increase AHr.   Therefore, two 6 volt batteries @ 225 AHr connected for 12 volts is still 225 AHR.    .... 6 batteries wired for 12 volt results in equivalent three 12 volt batteries @ 225 AHr.
 
redoing the calcs:
3 batteries @225 AHr =675 AHr
Inverter: 8000 watt @ 120 volt (output)= 800 watt @ 12 volt (input) = 66.67 amps   ... (Is 8000 watts the calculated load? Has efficiency losses been included?)
 
service time: 675 AHr / 66.67 amps = 10.12 hr
Efficiencies of the system was neglected, so I think your actual operating time will be about 6 to 7 1/2 hours (at full load), 60% to 75% efficiency of inverter, wiring, & motors.
 
Note efficiency of the battery is accounted for in its AHr rating. Which is 20 hours  of 100% loading or approx. 80% of battery capacity.     ... The above system will be depleted at 10.12 hours (80% discharge), At which time the batteries needs recharging.
 
*** my 2 cents and exercise for myself to understand.

edwmax


Correction,   connecting 2 batteries in series to increase voltage does not increase AHr.   Therefore, two 6 volt batteries @ 225 AHr connected for 12 volts is still 225 AHR.    .... 6 batteries wired for 12 volt results in equivalent three 12 volt batteries @ 225 AHr.

redoing the calcs:
3 batteries @225 AHr =675 AHr
Inverter: 8000 watt @ 120 volt (output)= 800 watt @ 12 volt (input) = 66.67 amps   ... (Is 8000 watts the calculated load? Has efficiency losses been included?)

service time: 675 AHr / 66.67 amps = 10.12 hr
Efficiencies of the system was neglected, so I think your actual operating time will be about 6 to 7 1/2 hours (at full load), 60% to 75% efficiency of inverter, wiring, & motors.

Note efficiency of the battery is accounted for in its AHr rating. Which is 20 hours  of 100% loading or approx. 80% of battery capacity.     ... The above system will be depleted at 10.12 hours (80% discharge), At which time the batteries needs recharging.

*** my 2 cents and exercise for myself to understand.

 
The batteries will be run in series parallel. Check out this tool.

Here is the on-board battery bank smart auto charger I will be using.

 

reese77

edwmax


Correction,   connecting 2 batteries in series to increase voltage does not increase AHr.   Therefore, two 6 volt batteries @ 225 AHr connected for 12 volts is still 225 AHR.    .... 6 batteries wired for 12 volt results in equivalent three 12 volt batteries @ 225 AHr.

redoing the calcs:
3 batteries @225 AHr =675 AHr
Inverter: 8000 watt @ 120 volt (output)= 800 watt @ 12 volt (input) = 66.67 amps   ... (Is 8000 watts the calculated load? Has efficiency losses been included?)

service time: 675 AHr / 66.67 amps = 10.12 hr
Efficiencies of the system was neglected, so I think your actual operating time will be about 6 to 7 1/2 hours (at full load), 60% to 75% efficiency of inverter, wiring, & motors.

Note efficiency of the battery is accounted for in its AHr rating. Which is 20 hours  of 100% loading or approx. 80% of battery capacity.     ... The above system will be depleted at 10.12 hours (80% discharge), At which time the batteries needs recharging.

*** my 2 cents and exercise for myself to understand.

The batteries will be run in series parallel. Check out this tool.

2 (6 v) batteries are wire in series for 12 volt output.  Then the 3 sets (pairs) are wired parallel to the inverter as shown by the charging diagram.   .... I know that ...

The Gen3 charger is rated at 30 amp.   Power in (charging) = power out (used)
 
From calcs above  and power usages stated the battery bank would be depleted at 10.12 hrs.
 675 AHr/ 30amp = 22 1/2 hours charging time.
 
I think you need 2 or 3 chargers or a bigger one.  2 chargers same size as shown = 11 1/4 hrs; 3 chargers = 7 1/2 hrs;  to charge 675 AHr
 
Granted I realize not all the equipment will not run at the same  and power usage is not always at the max 66.7 amps, but I think if your were working during the day and charging the battery bank at night, then the recharge  needs to be less than 10 hours. 

http://www.batteriesplus.com/ ( right in your town )  This is where I am getting my batteries ( $155 a piece ) 255ah 6vs  
 
You're going to need a better charger, You want the most bang for your charge, the bigger the amp charge the less time you waste charging.  Unless you go solar.  Talk to the battery plus ppl, that is what they do best, they design these types of systems

THE WILD DOG


http://www.batteriesplus.com/ ( right in your town )  This is where I am getting my batteries ( $155 a piece ) 255ah 6vs  

You're going to need a better charger, You want the most bang for your charge, the bigger the amp charge the less time you waste charging.  Unless you go solar.  Talk to the battery plus ppl, that is what they do best, they design these types of systems

 
Yes, I spoke with the guy at Batteries Plus and I need to search for a bigger charger.

Purchased batteries, $81.99 +30 core fee so $111.99ea @ Batteries Plus. (6) 6V 225Ah

These bastards are heavy as crap! 

 

Hey there, just a quick question for you, I was sent to this site by a friend of mine who's building a food truck up here in Victoria regarding the battery bank your building, she wanted to do something similar to power up her truck and was hoping to be self contained and seemed to think your setup was conducive to what she wanted. After reviewing your calculations, though, I have some concerns about your design. Basic electrical calculations says power in equals power out in a n equal but inverse relationship - ie as volts go down amps go up, power remains constant. According to your numbers, 8000 watts at 120 volt requires 66.7 amps. This would mean at 12 volts, you would require 667 amps, not the 66.7 shown in the calculations, resulting in a battery life of 1.2 hours at 8000 watts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you might need to revisit your calculations

@ DT nope your calcs are wrong. 675amp hours x your amp requirements (66.X)= your total run time till discharge, now you don't want to discharge if you can help it as it will kill your batteries.  Which would be 10.x hours. not 1 hours. 

@ reese, you will want to look into the car battery chargers that come on their own dolly's  these are 300-500 amp chargers and they run about 500$+

four stacked in a square 21" x 21" 

oh and use O gauge wires for all your wiring or you can blow your equipment and batteries. The less the gauge the better voltage you will get.

downtowne


Hey there, just a quick question for you, I was sent to this site by a friend of mine who's building a food truck up here in Victoria regarding the battery bank your building, she wanted to do something similar to power up her truck and was hoping to be self contained and seemed to think your setup was conducive to what she wanted. After reviewing your calculations, though, I have some concerns about your design. Basic electrical calculations says power in equals power out in a n equal but inverse relationship - ie as volts go down amps go up, power remains constant. According to your numbers, 8000 watts at 120 volt requires 66.7 amps. This would mean at 12 volts, you would require 667 amps, not the 66.7 shown in the calculations, resulting in a battery life of 1.2 hours at 8000 watts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you might need to revisit your calculations

 
Downtowne,
 
I'm no electrical expert as you can tell, I am just going to the advice/suggested setup provided by the tech support company that manufactures the 8000Watt inverter that I purchased. I am still learning.
Below is their reply. The total watts for all my electrical equipment is 3426.
 
"If you are pulling the full 8000 watts you will be pulling 666 amp hours. You don’t want to pull more than 50% of what a battery can put out and don’t want to put more than 25% back into it. That being said you will need 6 of those battery's putting your amp hours at 1350 allowing you to be able to pull the full 8000 watts at 666 amp hours.   In order to achieve the 12V necessary to operate that inverter you will need to hook up the battery's series parallel meaning running 3 sets of 2."
 
I need to go over the numbers further.

The important thing to remember here is that the change in voltage will result in a change of amperage, the 66.7 amps is the draw on the 120 volt side of the inverter, on the 12 volt side ( the battery side) the amp draw is 667. The technical support guy has said as much in his thread, but he has not outlined how long they will operate the inverter for, just that they will. Also remember when you put a battery in series, you are only doubling the voltage, not the amperage, if the batteries go in parallel then you double the amperage. So if you put your 6 batteries in a series- parallel output (2 batteries each in series, those 3 sets in parallel) the total output of those batteries will now be 12 volts, 675 Amp- hours, not the 1350 he said.

Hello Reese, nice batteries. When I build Battery trays and boxes I coat them with Herculiner truck bed coatings, Or its equal. Batteries give of gases that will quickly corrode any kind of metal, especially black iron. If you have the means to, it is best to hot solder and shrink wrap the ends of your 0 or 00 batt cables, which you can buy at any good welding supply store, dont skimp on this step, those batteries have the power to blow a HOLE through your truck. Its also a good idea to look into a QUICK-RELEASE GROUND CABLE to kill the source of the juice , You now have the POWER, use it WISELY and SAFELY.

Just a couple observations
go over your power numbers again
Make sure you have adequate ventilation especially during charging
Make sure you have easy access to check acid levels and specific gravity
Before you make frames and get all this installed, I would assemble all the components and test for life and charge times.  Like a bench test.  This could save you a lot of work in case something major needs to be changed.
In case you have not seen this here's link that may help:
http://marine-electronics.../battery_faq/b_faq.htm
Good luck take your time test as you go don't get in a rush to get everything in its final packed up state till you've worked out all the bugs.  

I agree totally with Rods post Build your battery tray too last, gussets and bracing are essential , they are Heavy as you know and will want to Rock & Roll.Use a Never Seize or a good Marine grade grease on the Batt terminals.

Wow there sure is a lot of good info being posted. And wish I had something more useful to add to this discussion. Lol. You guys are much smarter than I.

downtowne


  ... Basic electrical calculations says power in equals power out in a n equal but inverse relationship - ie as volts go down amps go up, power remains constant. According to your numbers, 8000 watts at 120 volt requires 66.7 amps. This would mean at 12 volts, you would require 667 amps, not the 66.7 shown in the calculations, resulting in a battery life of 1.2 hours at 8000 watts. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you might need to revisit your calculations

 
You are correct Dt,  ... I drop a 0 on the 12 volt side of the equation.    It should have been 8000 w instead of the 800.    .... 8000w / 12 v= 666.7 amp      ... The battery group as described will last a little more than an hour.
 
Noting the 3426 watts Reese now gives for total watts usage, he might get 3 to 4 hrs out of the 6 batteries.   ... Also, he will 100% deplete the usable AHr rating of the batteries which his tech support states should not be done.   ....    For info, 'deep cycle' batteries are rated for 80% depletion and the AHr rating that can be supplied for 20 hr.   After this point heavy use will damage the battery.

I speak from years of experience in the sheet metal trade, But I still have too buy a good cup of COFFEE.......
 

After doing a little more research, I think this battery setup at the loading stated may be dangerous.    ... The problem is at the prolong high amperage output, the batteries will overheat.     ... I think the manufacture's recommended steady discharge rate is 225/20 = 11.25 amp per battery or 3 X 11.25 = 34.5 amps for this group.   This is calc from the AHr rating.   ... Some battery manufactures indicate this in their FAQ.   For short periods of high amp discharge, over heating is not normally a problem.
 
A question to Powertron: What is the max. steady safe amp. output of the battery?
 
Another question for Powertron:  At high discharge rate, how will this effect the AHr rating of the battery?     ... At high discharge rate & higher operating temp, the AHr capacity will be less.

there is nothing wrong with the set up he is going with. I spoke with a company that is all they do, build battery banks. I spent 45 mins on the phone with a guy who designed my system while I was on the phone, his AH to run time is MORE than 4 hours. it's more like 22.  I use a battery system on my food trailer and it's a cheap marine battery and a 1200 watt inverter that runs for 30 days running a cash register, a neon sign and a refrigerator.

Still good questions for the manufacture to verify the batteries are operating within safe design range.

Starting to regret my decision. I will ask Powertron about potential overheating. Once the inverter arrives today, I will wire up the batteries, fuses, etc. on my work table and plug my garage refrigerator and separate deep freezer into it and monitor the amps/volts/watts.
 
Can I use 4 gauge wire for all connections? I cannot find zero gauge as suggested?

i wouldn't, auto parts stores have 0 gauge
the smaller the gauge the better supply you will get

or 2 gauge

THE WILD DOG


i wouldn't, auto parts stores have 0 gauge
the smaller the gauge the better supply you will get

 
OK. I found some 0 gauge at a auto stereo store (expensive).

How much was it a foot? It shouldnt be more than 2.50 a foot, I pay much less when I buy it in bulk.

Uncle Groucho


How much was it a foot? It shouldnt be more than 2.50 a foot, I pay much less when I buy it in bulk.

 
I overpaid, it is fancy transparent/colored cable for show cars, 7.50ft. I ran out on lunch break and was rushing. Called them and I can't take it back. I found that Home Depot has black 0 gauge much cheaper. I had tried 2 auto zones and Walmart auto section early in the morning before work and neither had zero gauge.

Wow thats high check out weldingsupply.com just for a comparison. Also, add a couple inches for the cable length, not all batteries are the same dimensions and if you have to switch one out you wont have to make another cable.
 
Oh by the way, just FYI , when you buy battery cables, feel the coating on the cable, if it feels like rubber, that is the correct type to get, if it feels like plastic, it will get brittle and crack and you will have a possible short in your system.
 

Uncle Groucho


Wow thats high check out weldingsupply.com just for a comparison. Also, add a couple inches for the cable length, not all batteries are the same dimensions and if you have to switch one out you wont have to make another cable.

Oh by the way, just FYI , when you buy battery cables, feel the coating on the cable, if it feels like rubber, that is the correct type to get, if it feels like plastic, it will get brittle and crack and you will have a possible short in your system.

 
OK, Will do. Thanks.

Reese,
Don't get discouraged just go slow and find the best experts you can find. And if you get what you think is great advice from someone, call another expert and ask the same questions all over again to double check everything you just learned. We are pulling for you and want this thing to work perfectly.
jack

anxiously waiting for your next post !    I know you'll be found. Our generator ran out of gas as our day ended today & had to put everything in the freezer for the drive home     (15 mins tops ) and man was it quiet. lol   Post pics too & make sure your batts are charged 100% before testing.

This inverter is huge.
 

 

 

reese77

THE WILD DOG


i wouldn't, auto parts stores have 0 gauge
the smaller the gauge the better supply you will get

OK. I found some 0 gauge at a auto stereo store (expensive).

Slow down, your costing yourself money.   ... Hardware stores have 0 ga wire, as you have already found at Home Depot.   This is a stock item for them.  Much of your off-shelf supplies should be from a hardware stores.
 
I think the frig & freezer test will be just fine.   These appear to be within operational limits of the batteries at about 20 amp or less per battery.  (Golf carts limit the current draw on these batteries to 5 -8 amps; these will go 2 or 4 days without recharging)
 
...   I did a little search for overheating of batteries.  I found several RV'ers have attempted similar projects as yours and simply shorted out the battery plates and melted the cases.     ... This is why I suggested contacting the battery manufacture. From the above calcs and wattage  you gave (3426 w or 8000 w) the batteries will be operating at 10 or 20 Xs more than the 225 AHr rating of 11.25 amp.  ... i hate for you to lose these batts, when all it takes is a call or email to the manufacture to be sure
 

edwmax,
 
I sent them an email at powertronbattery@sbcglobal.net, I tried to call and got sales but could not get to a tech. I will let you know what they say.

What exactly do you mean by "huge?" lol. What are the dimensions? And Do you have a rough price for what you think your system will cost you after all said and done?
For our truck being self contained, running the generator we will need for our power will cost more than ten thousand dollArs in fuel per year.. If we cAn swing a battery system that will keep us from running that thing, it will pay for itself very quickly.

Also, did you pull building permits for your stuff or do you not have to have them? I'm afraid to ask my local office because they're such pain in the butts. I've. Been dealing with an inspector the past few months who has a power tripping vendetta against the GC and is making every sub do the most ridiculous things. So I REALLY don't want to have to deal with the morons.

Anyways just wondering what your experience was before i put my foot in my mouth with them.

Reese,
i agree with the Dr. take it slow and steady. i know an electical enginer i will show him what you are doing.
i do not know if he can help can't hurt to ask right?

marco226


Reese,
i agree with the Dr. take it slow and steady. i know an electical enginer i will show him what you are doing.
i do not know if he can help can't hurt to ask right?

Hey marco. I'm next up to bat when it comes to electrical, inverters and batteries. Whats this guys number.
 

marco226


Reese,
i agree with the Dr. take it slow and steady. i know an electical enginer i will show him what you are doing.
i do not know if he can help can't hurt to ask right?

 
Cool, thanks.

OurCoffeeTruck


What exactly do you mean by "huge?" lol. What are the dimensions? And Do you have a rough price for what you think your system will cost you after all said and done?
For our truck being self contained, running the generator we will need for our power will cost more than ten thousand dollArs in fuel per year.. If we cAn swing a battery system that will keep us from running that thing, it will pay for itself very quickly.

 
Product size (L x W x H): 22.44” X 11” X 8.5”
 
Batteries - $700
Inverter - $730
Cables, distribution blocks, fuses, terminal connectors, shunt, battery cut off/isolation switch, etc - $250
 
I already have a Trimetric TM 2025-RV battery bank monitor that I purchased awhile ago for my solar panels, I will use this. I also had to purchase more square tubing and angle iron to build the battery bay.
 
I will try to wire up the bank as soon as I can find some 0 gauge terminal crimp style connectors before I go out of town for  business on Wednesday.
 

Hello Reese
That seems to be a reasonable investment, Good for you, I cant wait for the results.
Use a good Hammer Crimp Tool google it or look on youtube there are videos.
The hammer crimp tool should be around 20 bucks and the cable ends like Tweco brand should be around 2.50 each.

Uncle Groucho


Hello Reese
That seems to be a reasonable investment, Good for you, I cant wait for the results.
Use a good Hammer Crimp Tool google it or look on youtube there are videos.
The hammer crimp tool should be around 20 bucks and the cable ends like Tweco brand should be around 2.50 each.

 
Got it, thanks. Where can I find 0 gauge cable ends locally? I see 2 and 4 gauge but no zero. I tried Northern Tool, Home Depot and Auto Parts Stores. I will try Lowes today, they usually have way more items then HD.

Look in the PhoneBook for Welding Supplies there should be a few, when you tell them the size say ought instead of 0, it will make you sound cool,
ought = 0
1/0 is bigger
2/0 is bigger yet and so on and so forth.
Let your Fingers Do The Walking. If you are still unsure PM me your zip code and I will take a look for you.
 
PS dont just smash the cable and ends with a hammer on the curb.

Lowes usually carry welding supplies and cable ends & terminals.

0 gauge is pretty big. Good luck. If they do have them, "If they look and feel like junk, they are." Thats a lot of current to use an inferior piece.

Reese what happen to the idea of using the 2 honda eu inverter generators?...... at the cost you are spending on this battery bank plus having to recharge and then having to possibly replace the batteries after so long it seems that the honda's would have been a better go..... I'm not an expert at all but those batteries can be recharged so many times then won't they go kaput then you need to replace batteries????? not to mention the wear and tear on the inverter after so long