Aggravating Chocolate

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bobwatts
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2012/07/24 10:03:55 (permalink)

Aggravating Chocolate

I have a 5 gal ice cream maker that I use for making and selling at events. I am very pleased with my recipes, but I have a question about my chocolate. It takes forever to freeze and ultimately, it doesn't really freeze, it builds volume and I take it out. For the chocolate, I use 1/2 cup coco powder and 1 cup of chocolate syrup and the flavor is what I want. Is it possible that the additional fat from the chocolate is keeping it from freezing like my other flavors do?
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 10:31:13 (permalink)
    Is your maker the ice & salt type?   Assuming it is,  increase amount of salt used and add more ice as needed. Then after the mix has thickened, allow it to sit in the ice longer to ripen & harden.
     
    I suspect the chocolate syrup is making the mix be softer. It's not freezing and/or lowering the freezing temp of the entire mix.  You might want to try making the chocolate without the syrup to see if this make the difference.   ... I understand the recipe makes the flavor profile that you want, so increasing the salt and allowing the mix to ripen & harden longer may be your only option.
     
    ... for what its worth, my experience is with the 1 gal size ice cream maker.  ...
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    bobwatts
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 12:16:38 (permalink)
    Correct, I am using a salt and ice machine. It is similar to your 1 gal in every way except size and power. I have attempted to increase the salt, but that really didn't seem to do anything. In fact, I always make the chocolate after I make vanilla, then use the same ice/salt mixture. So it will have the original salt PLUS any new salt I add. When I do a second batch of vanilla, I'm amazed at the speed to completion. I'm continuing to work on this issue and appreciate the great feed back.
     
    I too have considered that it might be the chocolate syrup. I may try decreasing the syrup and increasing the coco powder.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 17:16:41 (permalink)
    I sure most here understands how salt & ices works, but it surprise me at how many people just thinks salt make ice colder.   .... wrong .... Salt makes ice melt faster and ice melts at 32 deg F.   The heat to melt the ice come from the ice cream (& outside air if not wrapped with a towel), thus it freezes.  The salt water & ice will not be any colder than 32 deg F.    So if you are reusing the same salt & ice, make sure as much fresh ice & salt is added that can be; and add as the ice melts.
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    bobwatts
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 17:37:00 (permalink)
    I am not sure I would completely agree with that. I have one of the point and shoot thermometers and have tested the salt/ice temps many times. I have never seen it return as 32 degrees. Normally it reads in the single digits. It would likely take forever for ice cream to freeze if the temperature never got below 32. Yes, ultimately, it would get there....I suppose.
     
    HOWEVER, that is not the purpose of this thread. My question specifically is to the question of why my chocolate freezes differently than my other flavors.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 20:47:04 (permalink)
    More likely you are reading the temp of the can and not the temp of the ice water mixture.    So if the can is show single digit temps, you should be good.
     
    What is the ingredient of the syrup?   is there any sugar or salt?
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    RodBangkok
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 21:02:13 (permalink)
    edwmax

    I sure most here understands how salt & ices works, but it surprise me at how many people just thinks salt make ice colder.   .... wrong .... Salt makes ice melt faster and ice melts at 32 deg F.   The heat to melt the ice come from the ice cream (& outside air if not wrapped with a towel), thus it freezes.  The salt water & ice will not be any colder than 32 deg F.    So if you are reusing the same salt & ice, make sure as much fresh ice & salt is added that can be; and add as the ice melts.

    fyi:
    http://www.worsleyschool....dfreezing/ofwater.html
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    RodBangkok
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/24 21:31:02 (permalink)
    bobwatts

    I have a 5 gal ice cream maker that I use for making and selling at events. I am very pleased with my recipes, but I have a question about my chocolate. It takes forever to freeze and ultimately, it doesn't really freeze, it builds volume and I take it out. For the chocolate, I use 1/2 cup coco powder and 1 cup of chocolate syrup and the flavor is what I want. Is it possible that the additional fat from the chocolate is keeping it from freezing like my other flavors do?

    The choc syrup is mostly HFCS, which has a lower freeze point typically than your other ingredients, and will control the freeze point of the ice cream, depending on its percentage in the formula.  Suggest you switch to a different choc flavoring that contains less or no HFCS.
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    bobwatts
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/25 08:39:06 (permalink)
    Thank you all for you kind and thoughtful comments. I'm making vanilla this week, but will be back on chocolate next week. I am going to try a different chocolate and hope that does the trick.
     
    You are correct about the HFCS being present in the syrup....in fact it is the first ingredient listed. I had not considered that and my gut tells me you are dead on correct.
     
    I'll report back next week after I have the opportunity to try another chocolate product or at least change the amount of syrup that I use.
     
    Thanks again all.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/25 12:32:59 (permalink)
    RodBangkok

    edwmax

    I sure most here understands how salt & ices works, but it surprise me at how many people just thinks salt make ice colder.   .... wrong .... Salt makes ice melt faster and ice melts at 32 deg F.   The heat to melt the ice come from the ice cream (& outside air if not wrapped with a towel), thus it freezes.  The salt water & ice will not be any colder than 32 deg F.    So if you are reusing the same salt & ice, make sure as much fresh ice & salt is added that can be; and add as the ice melts.

    fyi:
    http://www.worsleyschool....dfreezing/ofwater.html

    That is the molecular explanation of what happens when ice, water and salt is held at the same temperature at equilibrium (0 deg C; 32 deg F).  ie: no heat added & no heat extracted. .... But that is not the situation while making ice cream.  The temperature of the ice cream mixture must be lowered by extracting the heat (btu).  This is done by melting the ice; heat out (from ice cream mix) = heat in (melting of ice)  .... (yes, we are neglecting the heat from the air)    Salt lowers the freezing point of water; it upsets the equilibrium state of water & ice at 0 dec C (32 deg F) and cause ice to melt faster at 32 deg and/or if more (hard) ice is added the temp of the solution could be lowered and the ice still melt. Here the ice, water & salt is not at equilibrium.
     
    The rapid removal of heat from the ice cream mix is the freezing of the mix.   .... (heat out; to lower mix to freezing) = (quantity of ice needed to melt; heat in)
     
    ... OH ... there are many web sites attempting to explain what happens with ice, water and salt while making ice cream to are wrong.   I read one wrote by a Phd (of what I don't know) that stated ice got colder when the ice absorbed the heat from the mix.  ... (BS)..   This a basic Chemistry 101 lab problem that every one who had to take the class had to do.
     
    post edited by edwmax - 2012/07/25 12:50:54
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/25 12:42:54 (permalink)
    bobwatts

    Thank you all for you kind and thoughtful comments. I'm making vanilla this week, but will be back on chocolate next week. I am going to try a different chocolate and hope that does the trick.

    You are correct about the HFCS being present in the syrup....in fact it is the first ingredient listed. I had not considered that and my gut tells me you are dead on correct.

    I'll report back next week after I have the opportunity to try another chocolate product or at least change the amount of syrup that I use.

    Thanks again all.

     
    HFCS is sugar (corn syrup). There my also be some salt in the syrup (???).   this was why I asked above.   With the sugar called for in the mix and the additional sugar from the choc syrup, I suspect the freezing temp of the mix is below 0 deg F.     You might be able to compensate for the sugar in the syrup by deleting some or all of the sugar (granulated) called for in the recipe.   ... depends on how much choc syrup your are using.     It's probably better to use all powered chocolate with no sugar (or salt).
    #11
    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/28 07:56:18 (permalink)
    I made some vanilla ice cream last night.   The temp of my ice water was at 18 deg F and 2 hours later while the ice cream was ripening, the temp was 18.2 deg F.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/07/28 08:03:04 (permalink)
    I made some vanilla ice cream last night.   The temp of my ice water was at 18 deg F and 2 hours later while the ice cream was ripening, the temp was 18.2 deg F.
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    bobwatts
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/08/02 17:48:48 (permalink)
    Follow up:
    Attn: Rodbangkok - you said:

     
    "The choc syrup is mostly HFCS, which has a lower freeze point typically than your other ingredients, and will control the freeze point of the ice cream, depending on its percentage in the formula.  Suggest you switch to a different choc flavoring that contains less or no HFCS."
     
    I am happy to report that I do in fact believe you were dead on with the HFCS. I changed my recipe, decreased the syrup by half and doubled the powder and it was and entirely different ice cream making experience! It froze and bulked up like a champ. Thank you so much for your wisdom!
     
    I made a video of my little machine working:

    I used a inferred thermometer to measure the temperature of the ice. I was ranging from 7 degrees down to -2. Very "cool" experiment.
    #14
    edwmax
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    Re:Aggravating Chocolate 2012/08/02 19:41:31 (permalink)
    Is your ice from a commercial supplier?   The best that I find hard ice from local conveyances stores is at 22 deg F.  Most are about 26 to 30 deg.
    If I put the ice in my freezer for abt 24 hr, I can get it down to abt 2 deg F
    #15
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