...And they put up a parking lot la la la

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redtressed
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2005/06/24 10:02:47 (permalink)

...And they put up a parking lot la la la

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0506240151jun24,1,7688365.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed


This bothers me greatly and I don't even OWN any property.(yet)
#1

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    tiki
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 11:44:33 (permalink)
    Me too!!! The whole ruling is disgusting!!!Isnt the siezre of propety one of the reasons we fought our revolution about!!!
    #2
    tamandmik
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 12:21:48 (permalink)
    This doesn't even belong in the "Lighter Fare" category, there should be a subcategory titled "Total Bull$h!t". That's just awful. We fled King George III of England because of this crap, and now we've come full circle.
    #3
    EdSails
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 12:37:38 (permalink)
    When they expanded LAX in the mid 60's my family lived in Westchester. In 1966, they made my parents "an offer you can't refuse" for their house. Ultimately, my elementary school and several blocks of houses were cleared. To this day, you can still see the streets-------the homes were cleared as a buffer zone with a few landing lights. Later on, I found out that not only were they offered next to nothing for the house, but the eminent domain included the mineral rights under the house-----oil rights that my parents had worked hard to obtain. And now the governments have more power?
    #4
    rbpalmer
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 13:22:07 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by EdSails

    When they expanded LAX in the mid 60's my family lived in Westchester. In 1966, they made my parents "an offer you can't refuse" for their house.


    At least they took the property for something that was clearly a public use (although this was probably of little consolation to your parents). Under this decision, if the city or county decides that a shopping center, corporate headquarters, factory or any other PRIVATELY OWNED facility should go where your house currently is, you're just SOL (Surely -- or something like that -- Out of Luck). It apparently doesn't matter that the primary beneficiaries will be the owners of the private venture involved (who will, by the sheerest coincidence, probably be heavy contributors to the political campaigns of the decision makers or their bosses). And what's worse, because it is a ruling of federal constitutional law, it can only be undone by another Supreme Court ruling, a constitutional amendment, or, on a case by case basis, by state courts who interpret their own constitutions to provide greater protections for small land owners than the federal constitution.
    #5
    redtressed
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 14:08:01 (permalink)
    The unconstitutionality of this decision, notwithstanding, my concerns are with the rampant wreckage of our history for one. Here in my town of about 55,000 that swells to about 80,000 plus when the University is in session, the "economic upgrading" has now raped Indian burial grounds, settlements from the 1700's and many bona fide historical sites. We can boast of 42 stadium style theaters now, but we can no longer point out sites of some of our greatest heritage. Farms on our rolling hills, where beautiful, stately, farmhouses from the 1800's once stood are now trashed up with treeless, muddy grounds and assembly line cracker box condominiums.

    The other thing I don't quite "GET", is the reasoning that a lot of minimum wage paying retail jobs will boost a city's economic status, thus make way for Wal- Mart et al, and dump people out of their homesteads. What kind of boneheaded economist would recommend the rampant progression of low paying employment, over the acquiring of skills and talents used in more specific industries, and the elevation of the pay scale in the retail jobs already in place? Retail can be very taxing hard work, I've done it myself.(yes , yes it was to get a nice hefty discount at a local "fine" department store and to pay off my uhmmmmm credit card purchases at said store)But erecting more and more retail outlets in a town of 55,000 just slits the throats of all the present workers.

    I would also think, that in the long run, this decision would adversely affect the real estate industry. Who wants to buy property then be ordered to give it away at a substantial loss, because Walgreens wants to nestle in your bosom of land?

    As far as this decision's relation to the karma of Roadfood...........my guess is we will be seeing a lot of our beloved Mom and Pop places being flushed down the industrial sewer, not because of lack of their own revenue and success, but because the Darden Corporation wants to pretty up the area with a bright , shiny Red Lobster.
    #6
    SouthHillbilly
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 14:23:32 (permalink)
    Corporate give-aways.
    More to come. Get used to it.
    #7
    berndog
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 15:19:33 (permalink)
    Saw the news yesterday, and felt totally betrayed by our Supreme Court. I am glad for the minority, but I can't believe the majority decision which allowed this.

    I guess we will have to be more vocal on the local politics front, as there has to be acceptance by the town/city board for this to happen. I wonder if the landowners will give up, or if the homes will be surrounded by protesters keeping the bulldozers away for enough months that the developer decides to give up. Maybe someone can tear down the homes of the developers and the politicians who voted to allow this and see how they feel.
    #8
    BakersBoy
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:10:35 (permalink)
    The folks who didn't want Judge Bork, got Judge Souter instead. You see what has happened. If the city council in Annapolis wants to "take " my house and turn it into a Seven-11 they can. You see the "Seven-11" will have to pay more taxes on the property and thus more income for Annapolis.

    I am not a political person and this might not be the right forum, but when you vote think of everything that you are voting for.
    #9
    TJ Jackson
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:11:42 (permalink)
    Submitted a short "letter" to my governor via the ohio gov website immediately after I heard the ruling. I was and am still outraged. This ruling is going to get abused as rich people plow poor people under in search of more riches.

    It's disgusting, flat out.

    I can understand when it is a public work that absolutely has to be located at the location for whatever reason. I understand to an extent if the property is **clearly** blighted (although locally very nice homes were rated as "blighted" when it was clearly not the case, greed was clearly in play). But if it can be built elsewhere, or it is not a public work, and the property is not blighted, then I feel the government should have no say whatsoever, no right to invoke eminent domain.

    I might feel a little bit better about this if owners were paid at the bare minimum the greater of a) the value of the home or b) the price to purchase an equivalent or better home in an equivalent or better area....but the owners are often paid pennies on the dollar and its legal.

    DISGUSTING

    In the case of blight, the owner should have the right to trial....to demonstrate to the 'reasonable man" standard that the home is not blighted.
    #10
    The Travelin Man
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:28:41 (permalink)
    I never thought I would see the day when I agreed with Justice Scalia.
    #11
    rbpalmer
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:35:45 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by stevekoe

    I never thought I would see the day when I agreed with Justice Scalia.


    Ditto (or with Rehnquist or Thomas, for that matter).
    #12
    tiki
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:40:09 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by stevekoe

    I never thought I would see the day when I agreed with Justice Scalia.


    Really!!!!!
    #13
    Caramel Copper
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 16:53:49 (permalink)
    An Aside to Moderators:
    You need a Political forum, NOW.

    Copper
    #14
    tamandmik
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 17:07:01 (permalink)
    As a follow up thought to this, while we are on the subject of Supreme Court judges, I would like to fire a salvo at Justice Kennedy for going over to the dark side. His was the crossover vote. What a scumbag!" />
    #15
    redtressed
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 17:30:29 (permalink)




    quote:
    Caramel Copper Posted - 06/24/2005 : 16:53:49
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    An Aside to Moderators:
    You need a Political forum, NOW.

    Copper


    Mmmmmmm........I actually don't view this as a political topic, per ce, and I'd hate to see it pigeon -holed as such and turned into political party rants. I view it more as a human values/basic freedoms type of discussion that really does not involve politics in it's traditional sense. Of course politics enter into it, as it does everything(even where one works or decides to eat), but I think it's a much broader scope of the "BIG PICTURE". I don't think this one can be tied to party lines of thought exclusively. For example, the bulk of the justices voting against it were what are considered the conservative
    end of the judicial spectrum, thusly, whether it be a correct assumption or not, usually conservatives are classified as buddies of the big corporations etc. Ironically, those justices which are usually lumped into the human rights proponents against big business etc., have voted conversely to the usual spin on things.

    As I see it as a topic related to roadfood itself, hopefully I'm being Chicken Little, but I has a dread that this will hurt the small, private restaraunter in many ways, that smaller non corporations will suffer under the guise of newer and bigger is better.

    Members of this board that have been here a while know I'm pretty rabid on staying apolitical on traditional political topics. And, btw I am a moderator of this board.
    #16
    tiki
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:02:05 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Caramel Copper

    An Aside to Moderators:
    You need a Political forum, NOW.

    Copper



    NO!!!!! We DONT---trust me!!!
    #17
    Sundancer7
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:05:12 (permalink)
    Roadfood has a off topic and lighter fare location. This serves its purpose very well. It allows all to post on subject matter that is not relevant to Roadfood's objective which is to discuss roadfood places and its components.

    Most of the time it works very well but sometimes it gets a bit testy. When it gets too far out, one of the moderators will step in to insure that the post stay in line.

    Roadfood is not a political discussion board. There are probably thousands out there where these issues can be discussed. Obviously, there are issues that we are interested in and as long as they are appropiately discussed, they are allowed to remain.

    Redtressed, The Mayor and myself constantly review all threads and quite frankly, they are interesting.

    Enjoy, have fun and let it rip within reason.

    Paul E. Smith
    Knoxville, TN
    #18
    Bushie
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:15:39 (permalink)
    The crux of the problem is judicial activism, i.e., when justices ignore the Constitution and make rulings based on their own beliefs about "what will make society better". This ruling is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and their talk of this being a "states rights" issue is completely hypocritical.

    This is precisely why people should stop focusing on whether a potential judge is "conservative" or "liberal". What matters is how they have ruled in the past. Did they use the Constitution as a base for their rulings, or did they use the bench to advance their own agenda?

    Scalia is one who believes that our government should operate according to the limits of the Constitution (and, the main purpose of the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights, was to LIMIT government). Those of you who say that you "never agree with Scalia" are no doubt people who would say you "agree with Ginsburg". Well, she voted to take away your property rights.

    THINK, people.
    #19
    michaelgemmell
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:26:43 (permalink)
    Janeen, I've been having an argument with my friend Anne in St. Louis about this since the announcement. I hope you have read other articles than the Chicago Tribume article you posted, which, in an attempt to be touchy-feely for its locals became sentimental and lacked factual reporting. The SF Chronicle carried a Washington Post article today that's more informative.

    The US Supreme Court did not approve of the eminent domain condemnation of private property. The majority did not say it's "good," they said that under the Constitution there is no prohibition for this action: "...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Of course corrupt local governments will use this ruling to justify NOT providing just compensation.

    The majority on the Court DID warn us that we need additional protection. Now it's up to US to contact our members of Congress. They could easily give all Americans appropriate protections with a simple law--no Amendment needed, but it appears the majority of members of Congress are more interested in limiting our freedoms with the two proposed constitutional amendments than protecting us. We will have an opportunity to tell all our members of Congress and one third of the Senate just how important our homes are to us the first Tuesday of November next year. Of course, we as a nation have the power to choose to hurt others rather than protect ourselves, like we did last year.

    Up until now, most of the injustices flourished in secret. Five Supreme Court Justices told us of an inadequacy in our laws. The secrecy is over, folks, but now it's up to us to do something about it, and while I think this is the right forum for us to discuss it, be sure to tell your representatives how you feel. This current situation won't last long if we take action.

    Please understand I am not criticising anyone for posting their feelings here.
    #20
    michaelgemmell
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:33:06 (permalink)
    Bushie, you posted while I was writing mine, and I thought the full text of the Fifth Amendment would be helpful:

    Amendment V - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

    --from http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Article5

    Whether you like it or not, there is a massive body of legal precedent for eminent domain condemnation of private property for the purpose of economic development. There is no judicial activism here, the judges just said, "Sorry, folks in Connecticut, we can't change the law [ratified in 1791] even though it hurts you." Like I said, whine if you wish, but write your member of Congress.
    #21
    Bushie
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 18:48:01 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by michaelgemmell


    Whether you like it or not, there is a massive body of legal precedent for eminent domain condemnation of private property for the purpose of economic development. There is no judicial activism here, the judges just said, "Sorry, folks in Connecticut, we can't change the law [ratified in 1791] even though it hurts you." Like I said, whine if you wish, but write your member of Congress.

    Yes, there is a massive body of un-Constitutional legal precedent. Doesn't make it right. And, as they have perverted the concept of "interstate commerce", they are also perverting what "public use" means.

    However, I do agree with you (" /> can you believe it???) that the way to fight this is for people to start paying attention to and caring about what their local governments are doing. Taking some kind of action, no matter how small, can make a difference.
    #22
    redtressed
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 19:00:26 (permalink)
    No, Michael , no offense taken. The reason I posted the Chicago Tribune article is because it was one of the VERY few that did not require a subscription(albeit free or not) for people to view. My actual sources are lesser known publications, that I consider have a broader scope of both sides of most issues since they are not fueled by corporate interest and so on, so to speak. More of a voice of the people than the voice of the professionals.(no slams to our wonderful professional journalists on this board)

    More importantly, however, my views come from being related to one of the "BAD GUYS". This person is the one who arrives at your door, tells you a road is going through it, and offers you what the state will pay you for your property and home. I know first hand of the shenanigans employed to force these people to sell. Thus the unconstitutionality of the procees, just compensation is not given in the name of the state. I've heard him brag how he's screwed a family out of the worth of the property. I personally believe that if you deal with real estate in the commercial realm, that you would be foolish not to expect them to try to get the advantage, it's business pure and simple. However, I don't feel that "public" servants and the state should run shady practices and threats against the property owners, as we directly pay taxes as well as elect the officials who hire the staff that does this.
    You are correct that the acquisition of properties has been around forever, however I feel that this latest ruling clouds the issue even more, thus opens it to even greater misuse of power, and my friend, that's unconstitutional.

    Also, I would back up both you and Bushie on this: Pay attention to what you are voting for, and let your elected officials truly know your feelings. I have a distinct feeling that very few people of power are happy to open their emails or letters this day.

    As well, let the corporations know you're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.(Gotta love Peter Finch for that battle cry) Be an informed consumer as well as vocal. A good case of writers' cramps as well as not frequenting places that tend to use bully tactics, makes a big impact.(Yeah ok.......actions speak louder than words.......I do visit KMART once in awhile, but hey they do have the best beef and chicken in town)
    #23
    UncleVic
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 19:23:25 (permalink)
    We need working class folk in office. Not the arse wipes that can afford to buy the vote. I try my part by voting them out. Rest is up to you... And ya, it sucks whats going on....
    #24
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/24 22:24:51 (permalink)
    I really hate to have to be the one to bring this to the attention of some folks here, but the fact is the court's majority seems to have determined that the word public, in this case, means private. So, anyone with a piece of property that some developer covets can look forward to a local government taking it to sell or give to some pal.
    #25
    Extreme Glow
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/06/25 09:46:29 (permalink)
    In America, they first came for the small businesses, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a business owner.

    Then they came for the homes across town, and I didn't speak up because I didn’t live there.

    Then they came for the homes down the street, and I didn't speak up because I thought it would be more convenient shopping.

    Then they came for my neighbors, and I didn't speak up because I thought it would increase my property value.

    Then they came for me — and by that time no one was left to speak up.

    - Apologies to Paster Martin Niemöller
    #26
    leslie1787
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/07/01 01:51:02 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    I really hate to have to be the one to bring this to the attention of some folks here, but the fact is the court's majority seems to have determined that the word public, in this case, means private. So, anyone with a piece of property that some developer covets can look forward to a local government taking it to sell or give to some pal.

    Exactly, and that is what is so freaking frightening! So, I've started making myself heard ,to any and all who work for my vote.
    #27
    ScreamingChicken
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/07/01 11:24:24 (permalink)
    Didn't take long for some interesting fallout:
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/29/souter.property.ap/index.html
    Brad
    #28
    Willly
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/07/01 11:48:06 (permalink)
    "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." --John Adams
    #29
    tmiles
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    RE: ...And they put up a parking lot la la la 2005/07/01 15:09:50 (permalink)
    Congress hears the outcry. We can agree (or not) on the slimeyness of congress, but I can't think of a single stupid member. They can all read the polls. This issue crosses party lines, so I think that cities that try to pull this off will see federal aid drift away. I don't like the decision, but maybe it will wake people up.
    #30
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