Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick"

Author
RedGreene
Junior Burger
  • Total Posts : 37
  • Joined: 2005/01/04 16:39:00
  • Location: Redgreene Town, OH
  • Status: offline
2005/07/14 17:33:46 (permalink)

Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick"

The hatless trick is at it again. Now she is telling some of our 14 year old employees that they are protected under child labor laws, and that they don't have to close at night(we close at 10 m-th & 11 fri. & sat.) because they can only work from 4pm to 7pm.

Well, she's half right. They are protected under child labor regulations and we shouldn't have them closing at night. However, they can work any time between 7am to 9pm during the summer...as long as they don't work over 40 hours.

I have two questions:

1) I know I should fire her but what kind of problems will she try to create if I do? Yes, we have 14 year olds closing on rare occasions(never two together) so "legally" we have been in the wrong.

2) Am I interpreting the law correctly? I know it doesn't make it right but other businesses in the area(ice cream, pizza joints etc...) have 14 year olds working late hours as well. In fact, most of them pay the younger kids under minimum wage. We start all of our kids at minimum wage except for those with experience.

Sorry for the long post but any advise will be greatly appreciated.

Red

#1

23 Replies Related Threads

    Mosca
    Filet Mignon
    • Total Posts : 2980
    • Joined: 2004/05/26 23:44:00
    • Location: Mountain Top, PA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 17:40:50 (permalink)
    I'm not a restaurant owner, but I have a good solution.

    Thank her for bringing it to your attention that the younger workers shouldn't have to close, tell her that you looked into it and they can work until 9. Then stop making them work after 9.

    I mean, she's right. If you fire her or do anything vindictive toward her, you'd be even more wrong than you are right now. You were worried about hair nets, but IMO this is far worse. You say "never two together", but so what? It's a lot more wrong to take advantage of child workers (that's what they are) than it is to not wear a hair net.


    Tom
    #2
    mr chips
    Filet Mignon
    • Total Posts : 4727
    • Joined: 2003/02/19 00:15:00
    • Location: portland, OR
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 17:50:07 (permalink)
    Stop having 14 year olds close. You are playing with fire.
    #3
    6star
    Filet Mignon
    • Total Posts : 4388
    • Joined: 2004/01/28 02:03:00
    • Location: West Peoria, IL
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 18:20:19 (permalink)
    I do agree with Mosca's solution. Since she is concerned about the welfare of the 14-year-olds, perhaps she would be interested in being scheduled to come in every night at 9 pm and work until the time you close in order to do the closing (if she is capable of it).

    My reason for suggesting this is that if she was concerned about the 14-year-olds and was trying to prevent you from getting into trouble, she would have come to you first and mentioned it, not to them.
    #4
    mayor al
    Fire Safety Admin
    • Total Posts : 15279
    • Joined: 2002/08/20 22:32:00
    • Location: Louisville area, Southern Indiana
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 18:25:26 (permalink)

    I agree with the recommendations to cut back on the violations of the Law...but also , this employee is playing with you. She found your weak spot when she was allowed to continue after you asked her to get a hat...She will test you in every way possible now and in the future. Readjust your work schedule to cover any violations you may have and as soon as an opportunity presents itself...probably a hat violation will be my guess, fire her and get her out of your operation. If not plan on having a problem arise everytime you cough !
    #5
    CCJPO
    Double Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 530
    • Joined: 2003/04/20 01:09:00
    • Location: Fallon, NV
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 18:54:19 (permalink)
    I wish I had seen this topic before, oh well.

    First I want to put out a disclaimer, as I have seen "legallady' and others do before. This is not legal advice. These will only be suggestions.

    If I were you the first thing I would do is contact your states labor commission and ascertain exactly what the rules are for 14 year old workers. In some states there are special rules for kids who work in restaurants. You can either do it on line, or better yet contact them by phone, email or by letter. Whom ever you correspond with get their name and department for your records and for any follow up communications, and your protection. Try to get everything in writing.

    Next, and I hate to do this to you, but as a small business owner, and as a department head I have found this invaluable. You might want to consider deveolping a policy and procedure statement. This would/or could include all the rules and regulations and expectations of the business and of your employees. If you want to be real touchy feely do it with your employees input. Essentially you would want to put out all the terms and conditions of employment, and the positive and negative consequences of following, or not, as the case may be of following the terms and conditions of the policy and procedures statement. This may go a longway in helping you establish the parameters of who and who is not the boss.

    With that done, you now have a written document of what the rules are.

    With that in place it makes it easier to identify who is not on board with the rules and regulations.

    Then you have staff meeting, go over all the elements of the policy and procedures manual, have everyone that they understand the policies and procedures, keep the originals for your business, and give each employee a copy.

    Now it is essential that you document in writting when employess do not the p and p manual. Again you keep the original and they get a copy. You have a sh** stirrer in your midst, who may or may not know their employee rights. But if you document legitimate violations, and mete out appropriate discipline, and give them appropriate ways to improve or correct their behavior, remeber do it all in writting, with copies to all involved, then you will have a much better handle on the situation, and perhaps a better case in a wrongful dismissal case.

    Sorry this was so long.

    OOps forgot, any meetings you have with staff, that are not within the normal working hours makesure you pay them for it. I would suggest that all meetings be held in non-working hours. This is another PC concern which I hate, but it gives the employees a sense of "ownership" to the process.
    #6
    Sundancer7
    Fire Safety Admin
    • Total Posts : 13503
    • Joined: 2001/07/18 14:10:00
    • Location: Knoxville, TN,
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 19:59:32 (permalink)
    CCJPO: Very good advice and well thought out. Documentation is the key. A handbook regarding your expectations, rules of employment and benefits creates safety for the employer and a much better understand for those who are employed.

    It sounds a little difficult to do but most large office and business supply places have software available that you can customize for your use. Most are written to comploy with state and federal laws.

    Paul E. Smith
    Knoxville, TN
    #7
    CCJPO
    Double Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 530
    • Joined: 2003/04/20 01:09:00
    • Location: Fallon, NV
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 20:25:13 (permalink)
    jesus christo,

    I just re-read my post. I am sorry about the grammer and spelling and puctuation erors.

    It was very hot today, 105 degrees, and like a dumb ass, I forgot my hat this morning. Stupid mistake. Probably not the first mistake i will ever make, and probably not the last.

    Anyway I hope the message got across. Document, document and document, put everything in writing.

    I am going back to the irrigation ditch and do more swimming
    #8
    Caramel Copper
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 66
    • Joined: 2005/06/21 13:38:00
    • Location: Hogansville, GA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 21:10:40 (permalink)
    Stop hiring 14-year-olds or else deal with the consequences.

    Copper
    #9
    CCJPO
    Double Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 530
    • Joined: 2003/04/20 01:09:00
    • Location: Fallon, NV
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 21:51:42 (permalink)
    Copper,

    I hope you aren't serious.

    From what I have been able to infer from this site, is that many of the folks here started working for wages at 14 or younger. Maybe we are just older than you are old.

    Aslong as the laws are followed there is nothing wrong with hiring kids.

    Employment allows kids to learn how to interact with people, teaches them to follow directions in situations other then school and home, allows them the opportunity to deal with people they may not know or like, lets them learn how to get along. Allows them to learn and take responsibility, allows them to learn the value of a buck, allows them to learn how many hours they will have to work in order to buy the cd they want, or the movie they want to see, thus helping them to figure out how to prioritize their wants and desires, taking in to consideration their disposable income. There is also a need, in some cases, of young people who have to work in order to help their family make ends meet.

    As long as the labor laws are followed, and we are not allowing the kids to work under sweat shop conditions, then I am all for kids being allowed to work,

    Ithink I'll start a new topic. WHAT WERE YOU FIRST JOBS, DID THEY HELP OR HURT YOU?

    #10
    RedGreene
    Junior Burger
    • Total Posts : 37
    • Joined: 2005/01/04 16:39:00
    • Location: Redgreene Town, OH
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 21:57:59 (permalink)
    I love this site. Thanks for all of the great advise as I'm still pretty new to this business and can use all the help I can get.

    I knew that hiring 14 year olds was not in the best interest of my business, but the business that I'm posting about is in a small town of 1000. My wife was born and raised in this town and I've lived here for 10 years, so we know everyone. Two of the 14 year olds we hired were as a favor to the kids parents. No, that doesn't make it right, but in no way are we trying to take advantage of these kids.

    That being said, I will take the advise that CCJPO and others have so generously given me and make some changes.

    Thanks, Red
    #11
    jeepguy
    Double Chili Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 1555
    • Joined: 2004/03/29 04:29:00
    • Location: chicago, IL
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 22:37:35 (permalink)
    I started working at 16 uncrating and setting up new Bultacos, Nortons, Moto Guzzis, and Jawa CZ's at Geneva Cycle shop, Geneva IL. Fourteen seems a little young imo. After they aquire a driver's license, they're somewhat free to roam and work where they choose. My stepson is 13 and he's still a kid.
    #12
    fastfood
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 82
    • Joined: 2005/07/12 01:22:00
    • Location: S, MO
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/14 23:38:51 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by RedGreene

    The hatless trick is at it again. Now she is telling some of our 14 year old employees that they are protected under child labor laws, and that they don't have to close at night(we close at 10 m-th & 11 fri. & sat.) because they can only work from 4pm to 7pm.

    Well, she's half right. They are protected under child labor regulations and we shouldn't have them closing at night. However, they can work any time between 7am to 9pm during the summer...as long as they don't work over 40 hours.

    I have two questions:

    1) I know I should fire her but what kind of problems will she try to create if I do? Yes, we have 14 year olds closing on rare occasions(never two together) so "legally" we have been in the wrong.

    2) Am I interpreting the law correctly? I know it doesn't make it right but other businesses in the area(ice cream, pizza joints etc...) have 14 year olds working late hours as well. In fact, most of them pay the younger kids under minimum wage. We start all of our kids at minimum wage except for those with experience.

    Sorry for the long post but any advise will be greatly appreciated.

    Red




    Ok you are lying now,it is clearly illegal to pay any hourly employee less then minimum wage.The business would be heavily fined and it would surely be known by the division of labor if this were going on.
    #13
    Raine
    Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 196
    • Joined: 2005/03/07 10:27:00
    • Location: Charlotte, NC
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 08:23:55 (permalink)
    Yep, I would suggest that HER HOURS be changed to work until closing. Let the 14 year olds go home when they should.

    Employees like that you have to beat at their own game.

    Just like here at the office, their is this lazy girl, and she went to the dr(she's pregnant)and lied about her job duties. Got the dr to write a letter stating she couldn't work more than 40 hours a week(she keys on a PC all day). Thinking she would get to leave early on Fridays (if she got 40 hours earlier in the week). So, her bosses can have her work 9, 10, 12 hours a day. Then to let her go in 40, they adjust her hours on Friday. Instead of leaving early, she comes in late and leaves at her regular time.

    She screwed up by not getting the dr to write, she can't work more than 8 hours a day.
    #14
    Caramel Copper
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 66
    • Joined: 2005/06/21 13:38:00
    • Location: Hogansville, GA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 08:54:13 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by CCJPO

    Copper,

    I hope you aren't serious.

    Having raised four through their teenage years I admire ANYONE who can deal with these monsters. I am in favor of having their lips sewn shut from the ages of 12-25. The only thing that prevented me from pnching off their heads (especially at 14 & 15) was the fact that I loved them more than life itself.

    Copper
    #15
    mayor al
    Fire Safety Admin
    • Total Posts : 15279
    • Joined: 2002/08/20 22:32:00
    • Location: Louisville area, Southern Indiana
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 10:23:09 (permalink)

    Copper,
    With a total of 10 kids between Jan and I (previous marriages for both of us) and Grandkid #22 due in a couple of months I wholeheartedly support your evaluation of "The Value of Children".
    Duct Tape is God's way of allowing a parent to have a few minutes respite in what is a "normal" days activity.

    #16
    Michael Hoffman
    Double-chop Porterhouse
    • Total Posts : 18458
    • Joined: 2000/07/01 08:52:00
    • Location: Gahanna, OH
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 10:32:51 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by fastfood
    [br


    Ok you are lying now,it is clearly illegal to pay any hourly employee less then minimum wage.The business would be heavily fined and it would surely be known by the division of labor if this were going on.

    You know, fastfood, I'm amazed at your immaturity and lack of knowledge about the world. Then again, I suppose that's to be expected from someone who's been working at an Arby's for more than ten years and still hasn't made it past shift manager. You call someone on this board a liar on the basis of absolutely nothing other than your having heard that it is illegal to pay less than minimum wage. Well, fastfood, it is illegal to pay hourly workers who receive no tips less than the federal minimum wage of $5.15 per hour. But the fact is, people do it. Yes, fastfood, there are actually people in this world who break laws.

    Why, I understand there are even some people in this world who claim that the roast beef served at Arby's isn't processed meat.
    #17
    Caramel Copper
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 66
    • Joined: 2005/06/21 13:38:00
    • Location: Hogansville, GA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 11:07:24 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    quote:
    Originally posted by fastfood
    [br


    Ok you are lying now,it is clearly illegal to pay any hourly employee less then minimum wage.The business would be heavily fined and it would surely be known by the division of labor if this were going on.

    You know, fastfood, I'm amazed at your immaturity and lack of knowledge about the world. Then again, I suppose that's to be expected from someone who's been working at an Arby's for more than ten years and still hasn't made it past shift manager. You call someone on this board a liar on the basis of absolutely nothing other than your having heard that it is illegal to pay less than minimum wage. Well, fastfood, it is illegal to pay hourly workers who receive no tips less than the federal minimum wage of $5.15 per hour. But the fact is, people do it. Yes, fastfood, there are actually people in this world who break laws.

    Why, I understand there are even some people in this world who claim that the roast beef served at Arby's isn't processed meat.



    Bwa-Hahahahahhahahahhahahaha (gasp) (cough) snicker......
    I remember this one job I had at a Morrison's Cafeteria, glorified "busboyz". Called us waitresses, but since folks got their food off the line we just brought sauces and refilled drinks. And BUSSED THE TABLES. I was arguing with a wise apple Asst Manager about how heavy those bussing trays got (no buspans allowed on the floor), threw it on their big scale and it was 42 lbs. And that was indicative of every trip to the window!

    The Dish Pit would always flood on Sundays (Gawd, I felt sorry for those guys, and hit the Vodka bottle with them out back when I got the chance) and we would be ankle deap in slimey water in the bussing window.....the tiled floors would sweat in the summer when the air condition was running and the floor was like glass........on holidays we didnt get time and a half. Even convenience stores have to pay that.

    I've run the Buffet at a Hotel Restaurant and stood on mountains of cardboard boxes because the two huge fryers for the chicken always overflowed and you were wading in hot grease if you didnt find boxes.

    The Point Is: I've worked on construction sites doing framing, layed brick and block, commercial cleaning....blah, blah, blah. And by far the hardest and most dangerous time I ever put in was in a restaurant. By far.

    Copper
    #18
    Caramel Copper
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 66
    • Joined: 2005/06/21 13:38:00
    • Location: Hogansville, GA
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 11:08:51 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Al-The Mayor-Bowen


    Copper,
    With a total of 10 kids between Jan and I (previous marriages for both of us) and Grandkid #22 due in a couple of months I wholeheartedly support your evaluation of "The Value of Children".
    Duct Tape is God's way of allowing a parent to have a few minutes respite in what is a "normal" days activity.




    Duct Tape! Eureka!!!!!!!
    #19
    dreamzpainter
    Double Chili Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 1609
    • Joined: 2005/02/06 12:44:00
    • Location: jacksonville, FL
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 14:12:44 (permalink)
    go michael, go michael!! my jaw literally dropped when I read the liar post!! Not only do younger teens often get paid below minimum, they also operate machinery that is in direct violation of child labor laws. Both of these are the employers fault and sometimes out of ignorance but I also blame parents for not watching close enough. Perhaps fastfood can change his name to sandflea as he/she seems to be here mearly as an irritant
    #20
    RedGreene
    Junior Burger
    • Total Posts : 37
    • Joined: 2005/01/04 16:39:00
    • Location: Redgreene Town, OH
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/15 14:36:20 (permalink)
    Actually, fastfood, one of the places that I'm referring to is a little ice cream parlor. They leave a tip jar on the front counter and pay the kids $3.35/hour. The owner's wife runs the place and her husband is a CPA. How do I know this? We recently hired one of their disgruntled employees.

    Michael...I think fastfood is upset with me because I said his roast beef sandwich is a cheap imitation of what a real roast beef sandwich should be.

    Ten years and still hasn't made it past shift manager? LMAO
    #21
    CNW
    Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 187
    • Joined: 2004/06/27 06:08:00
    • Location: Overland Park, KS
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/19 00:37:57 (permalink)
    I have been in situations similar to this on both sides. The first was little over ten years ago when I worked for a franchaisee of a major Pizza Chain who hired 14 year olds. Someone, we didn't know who called the DOL about the time card issue just before I started there. An audit team showed up at our Corporate Offices with a warrant. The company that I worked for had about 30 locations. By the time the audit team had finished with just the previous calender year, I was told that they had found over 2,000 timecard violations. At the end of everything, the company paid a $25,000 fine and we were no longer hiring 14 year olds. Almost all of the violations were the kids clocking out at 7:05 or 7:10 when they had school the next day.

    The second was when I was a differnt Pizza company and this had to do with our payday. The company used a payroll processing company to print our paychecks. When they printed them, they put the date printed as the date on the check and then mailed them out to the restaurants where they sat in the safe for 2 to 3 days until the Friday payday. The story goes that one of the employees found out that it is a matter of law that the check becomes the property of who it is made out to on the date of the check and called the DOL when he wanted his check. I am not sure if the story is true, but less then a month after I heard this through the company grapevine, the checks were being printed with the actual paydays date. And the payday before that my manager gave out the checks as soon as he received them.

    I thought that that the government was being a little overbearing in these two cases until I had to look at the situation from the other side. After a work injury where I had to get out of the restaurant business, I went to work at a call center. We had to be there at least 15 minutes before our shift was scheduled to start in order to bring up all of our systems so that we could take our first call at our shift start time. Needless to say, this was a sore spot between the employees and management. After several years of this practice, the DOL called my employer on it. In the end every effected employee received back pay for this time. It averaged $500.00 for each year with the company. The company had to pay out around $20 million. I certainly enjoyed the extra $1500 dollars.

    A couple of other thoughts that I would share with you, remember that your tipped employees have to make minimum wage each shift with declared tips. If it has been a very slow night for some reason and they don't have it, you have to pay the difference. The other thing is that the IRS is now holding restaurant management responsible if employees underreport their tip income.
    #22
    Xfireguy
    Cheeseburger
    • Total Posts : 105
    • Joined: 2005/02/26 18:35:00
    • Location: Hartford, CT
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/20 18:08:56 (permalink)
    In the state of Connecticut it is illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to work in a restaurant or dining facility. I'll post the general statute number if ya want. Check with your state and see if it has such a law. I know for a fact underage kids work in fast food places in CT but it is against the law. I work with a 15 year old and yes the owner does allow him to use the equipment that it is illegal for him to use. Grill, fryolators,etc etc. I'm not going to be responsible for him when he gets hurt(I'm not his supervisor) He also pays him below minimum wage. Most kids want to work so alot of greedy owners looking for cheap labor hire them...and then they complain about the poor help they get from kids....I don't get it.
    #23
    fastfood
    Hamburger
    • Total Posts : 82
    • Joined: 2005/07/12 01:22:00
    • Location: S, MO
    • Status: offline
    RE: Child Labor Laws & the "hatless trick" 2005/07/21 00:06:42 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by RedGreene



    Ten years and still hasn't made it past shift manager? LMAO


    Whatever I have done nothing but excel since I started.I made it as far as store manager but like I said the store closed down.Shift manager is the next position below store manager.Unfortunately there isn't a store for every manager it doesn't work that way.Every single person at Arby's cannot run their very own store there just isn't enough.With in the next few years the 100 new stores we have will be done. And I will certainly have a store then.
    #24
    Jump to:
    © 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1