Discussion of what belongs in Cincti Thread vs what belongs in Dayton thread

There appears to be a continuing desire to discuss what does or does not belong in the Cincinnati thread and the Dayton thread in the "Where Should I Eat" section of these forums.

I've opened this thread for the purpose of this meta-topic discussion.

I ask that all meta-topic discussion along those lines be relocated here, so that those who wish to discuss this meta-topic can do so seperate from discussion of actual eats and eateries in those areas

I think I know what the problem is. People want to congregate discussion where the most action (postings) occur. Here is a parallel example I have observed. Over in RV.net there are forums based on RV types. The Class B campervan forum is for van conversions into motorhomes and vans are generally small and less than 22 ft. in length. There are what are called Class C motorhomes that are built on cutaway truck chassis but some of them are small and short like the campervans. Those small Class C RV owners prefer to post in the Class B forum and not the Class C forum because they think they have more in common with Class Bs rather than those 30+ foot Class Cs with slideouts, etc. So they keep insisting on posting in the Class B forum. The problem is it is confusing and the RV.net powers in charge decided their postings were not appropriate in the Class B forum. Consequently, every once in a while there is an eruption of postings and the subsequent deletions and arguments about them.

My observation is the same thing is occuring in the Cinci thread. The periphery people have an affinity for both Cinci and Dayton and they probably desire to post in the Cinci thread because they feel more metropolitan about it and they know they are going to get more reads, reaction and comments. Every new person that joins in that lives in that outer ring gray area is going to assume the same desire. It is human nature, community desire and different viewpoints and interpretation as to what is appropriate for discussion.  Just an observation.

Voluntary compliance will never work. In my RV.net comparison the moderators are the ones that enforce the discipline. So, if there is a solution, it would be up to Roadfood.com to moderate it. That means, I think, the issue is with Roadfood.com and whether they will support you. I do know from experience and observation that enforcement invites rebellion with and resentment of the enforcers. You will always get antagonistic eruptions from time to time and over discipline sucks the life blood out of the participants. It's a fine line maybe better handled with diplomacy.

I will reiterate my situation and expand on it.

I live in Brown County which is 60 miles or so from downtown Cinci and 80 or so miles from greater Dayton.

I have been getting errors on the Dayton thread each time I try to post there - ever since they upgraded this board - despite several requests to managment here to get this hangup fixed I am still locked out of the Dayton thread - for some months now.

I go to lunch weekly in the Cinci/Dayton/Brown County/N KY/ Eastgate areas on a rotating basis - with friends who live in the greater Cinci and Dayton area.

I look at where we eat and these two threads in discussion and sometimes wonder why anyone would get upset about mention of restaurants in any of these areas on either of these threads.

Given the controversy I have chosen not to post for the time being even though I could provide good input - but I do not post on the net to get aggravated over trivialities such as this.

I have even considered starting a thread for our lunchbunch group's jaunts in these 3 areas but given the attitude I find on the Cinci thread I think why bother?  I do not like to argue about such things - discussion so far shows no progress.

I just had some fine BBQ chicken for lunch at the Home Place (owned and operated by Mennonites) in Georgetown OH and am going tonight for some Caribbean goat curry in the same area and I have photos and good things to say about the Home Place but I don't want to rock the boat on the Cinci thread further - even though I have posted there about Brown County restaurants before with no reaction - but give the flareup over Dayton mentions on the Cinci thread - who knows what a current post there about Brown County might provoke,

To Davydd: well, being as how I am not a moderator, I can only do what any member can do - reply to threads, and open new ones.  So I am doing what I can.  I don't disagree with you - it may well take moderator intervention to resolve - but for the meantime, I will do what I can as a member same as anyone else, and ask for the thread to remain on topic.  I decided today to create this additional thread in the hope that a few posts might end up here rather than in the Cincinnati or Dayton threads.  Every post that does end up here is one less that ends up there, and I will happily take these small victories.  NYPN has already posted here, so there's one.  

To NYPN: I understand.  Open a new Dayton thread for your input on Dayton.  Open a new thread about Brown County for your Brown County information - my parents live in Brown County and would love to read your input.   

Two Dayton threads doesn't seem to make sense to me frankly - I would prefer the management solve the hangup.

A Brown County thread does not seem like such a good idea since so few members here live in this area. 

Cinci folks and Dayton folks come here (if they knew how nice Lake Waynoka is they might come more) and I wonder why no one objected before to my posts on Brown County in the Cinci or Dayton threads (when I was able to post in the latter thread).

If we can post about  Ky and IN  restaurants and Eastgate in the Cinci thread what is wrong with Brown or Adams county places being mentioned there?    

NYPIzzaNut

Two Dayton threads doesn't seem to make sense to me frankly - I would prefer the management solve the hangup.

Why not?  There is no reason why you could not start another Dayton thread.  Or for that matter - another Cincinnati thread.  Be my guest.  People could read either or both or neither as they choose, just as they do with any thread on these fora.  Go do a search on Charlotte, for example - there are many threads on Charlotte.

NYPIzzaNut

A Brown County thread does not seem like such a good idea since so few members here live in this area.

If it makes no sense for you to post Brown County info in a Brown County thread, why in God's name does it make sense to post about Brown County in the Cincinnati thread?   

NYPIzzaNut

If we can post about  Ky and IN  restaurants and Eastgate in the Cinci thread what is wrong with Brown or Adams county places being mentioned there?    

I don't dictate what is right or wrong here.  I am not a mod.  If the mods think it is OK for a post to be there, they will allow it to remain.  All I can do is ask that the thread remain topical.

Davydd: "I think I know what the problem is. People want to congregate discussion where the most action (postings) occur."

I think this is the most accurate description of the "problem" that I have seen. I started a similar niche thread named "Dining in the Virginia Military District" and it died out very quickly.

TJ, I don't intend to give advice, but, what the hell, since I also "tripped up" a few months ago on this "Cincinnati ONLY" meta-rule for this thread and I heard about it:

This is an issue specifically because you have made it an issue, plain and simple. If I were you I would be very happy that a thread that I started was so successful and I would be more than happy to allow slop-over from outlying areas.

IMO, it should have been labeled a "SW Ohio Dining" thread. Cincinnati is geographically vast - it can be 1 hr or more to cross the diameter of I-275. This whole area more or less has the population density of Southern NJ, and is really one large metropolitan area (FWIW - I saw "Cin-Day" on road signs in college in the 1970s. It's not a new thing.) And the northern Warren and Butler areas consider themselves part of both Cinci and Dayton metros.

And I think it sucks that some people are discouraged from posting because they believe that they will be netcopped. I really enjoy NYPizzaNut's commentary, for instance.

My $0.02.

I'm sorry you disagree, but _am_ glad you are discussing the matter here rather than in the actual Cincinnati NKy eats thread, which (not you specifically, but in general) becoming part of the problem

The fact that there is a road named Cincinnati-Dayton road does not make Cincinnati and Dayton one vast metroplex.  It's a road.  It covers the distance between the two metro areas.  I emphasize the word "between".  As in the tons of space between the two (emphasis on two) metro areas that is mostly as rural as any out there.

It was not titled "SW Ohio Dining" because that was not the topic I wanted to discuss when I started it.  Anyone can start a very limited topic (Lutefisk in Louisville) or a very broad one (What are the best things to eat in the entire world) as they desire.  Or anything in-between, within the forum rules.  If you think there should be a "SW Ohio Dining" thread that would encompass all things Cincinnati, Dayton, Midletown, Brown County, and etc etc, please do so.  Be my guest.  I will happily contribute, and I am certain others will do so as well.  This is in essence what I encouraged Russ Jackson to do some time back - http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Where-to-eat-in-Dayton-Ohio-North-of-Middletown-m379488.aspx -and encourage you, NYP, and others to do so now.

I do not and cannot stop folks from posting whatever they want - crop reports, ufo sightings, women's pro bowling league results - in the Cinti (or any) thread.  I am not a moderator.  However, I personally find it useful if I open a thread about - for example - sauerkraut, that the thread does indeed concern itself with sauerkraut and not sushi.  Similarly, I generally expect a movie billed as a comedy to contain comedy, and a book about  to football be about football -at least, one of the two kinds of football, that is.  I do not see this as an unreasonable expectation.

I am all for discussion of any legally-permitted topic.  The forums permit it a wide variety of discussion amongst thousands of registered users on (probably) tens of thousands of topics, each with one more more threads.  Its all good. 

If one wishes to open a discussion on a topic not already covered, or covered only in part by an existing thread, one has the right to open a new thread.  This is what should be happening, but there seems to be an unwillingness to do so.  I remain unsure why, despite NYPN's disclosure that it "doesn't make sense" to do so.  Its a set of discussion fora.  Threads are opened, topics are discussed. 

What doesn't make sense to NYPN is actually then the only thing that does make sense....one wants to discuss a new topic, one opens a new thread

  A couple of points from a non-resident's point of view...

1. The only posts to have been deleted so far have been those of personal attacks and other NON APPROPRIATE off topic content. Those will continue to be taken out as best we can.

2. I don't have a clue as to why NYP can't post on a particular thread...but it is not due to any punitive action on the part of the site.

3. The geographic definition of what is or isn't acceptable on the "Big Thread" seems to be the source of the differing opinions. I tend towards accepting the generic 'overall area' definition and would advise using that to keep the topic on the food-sites. I do agtree that many posts get side-tracked into related topics that don't belong on the "Big Thread"  (what I had for dinner before washing my car etc etc ) or (All pizza sucks....). Keep the thread as a LIST of locations and evaluations of those locations and it will continue to grow.

These are my OPINIONS not the ultimatums of the panel of Moderators.
AL

Al - thanks for the input

Would you be supportive of someone opening a SW Ohio thread? 

Or a "SW Ohio other than Cinti/Dayton" thread, so it is differentiated from the other two threads?

For what it's worth, I'd be happy with either, or even both

I see NYPN can now post on the Dayton thread again

It is amazing!  It must be a sign!

Here are county and county/city  maps of SW Ohio:






Your demarcation for what is now to be considered Cinci vs Dayton is a line horizontally thru Middletown, which is in northern Butler and Warren County - no one has really established how far east the Dayton or Cinti threads should venture.  Common sense, at this point, to my way of thinking, is that Cinti should include all counties bordering Hamilton, Clermont, Brown, and Adams to their North, which would include Butler, Warren, Clinton and Highland. Dayton should include Preble, Montgomery, Greene, Fayette, and bordering counties to their North.  Problem solved and there should be no need for a SW OH thread, and the other two threads now existing, so no one has to guess where to post and there should be no or minimal overlapping of the territory for each metro area.

We get Cincinnati radio and TV stations here in Brown County, as well as direct home delivery of the Cincinatti Enquirer - we consider ourselves part of the metroplex area of Cincinatti as do the folks in the immediate surrounding counties.

And if someone wants to compare a restaurant in the Dayton area to one in the Cinti area there should no complaints about topicality - members eat  in both areas and it is silly to surpress pertinent comments about restaurants.

How does this sound?

Uhm, TJ, excuse me, it is one not-so-vast metroplex. Springdale bleeds into Fairfield which bleeds into Hamilton which bleeds into Middletown/Monroe which bleed into Franklin which bleeds into the southern Dayton suburbs.

I think the idea I am trying to express is the idea of the "market area": where someone in the region is likely to spend their money.

And when you say women's bowling league scores, etc you're truly being over the top and off the point of what others are saying and you probably know it. We are assuming that the discussion is restaurant related and that the only "infraction" is that the topic being posted is outside your definition of what you consider a tightly defined thread.

Mayor Al said: "I tend towards accepting the generic 'overall area' definition..." That's exactly what I am recommending. NYPizzaNut appears to be advocating the same idea of a market area.

I run a message board myself. I have found that if I dictate exact criteria that messages must fall under, participation falls way off. So I don't do that. I want to be able to post something about a place in Lebanon or Mason or Monroe, all Cincinnati area suburbs, and not get hassled.

I'll say this: your thread title "cincinnati and northern KY" can be taken two ways: cincinnati city limits and northern KY suburbs (highly specific); or, the Cincinnati market area (as indicated by including N KY in the title.)

If you REALLY meant "Hamilton county, Ohio only" you should have said so.

Lastly, you're not a moderator, and this is a public commons subject to broad overall rules. Your rules are tending toward obnoxious.

what a great thread

Speaking as a non-resident, I never really figured out who considered themselves part of Dayton and who considered themselves part of Cincinnati. Here in the NY-NJ-CT Tri State area, it is not unusual to compare two restaurants 40 miles apart, which is about the air mileage from Dayton to Cincinnati.

NYPizzaNut did not carry over to this thread what he revealed in the Cincinnati thread - the fact that, using the old software package, he subscrbed to the Dayton thread. When they loaded the new software here on RF, a software bug kept anyone from posting to existing threads they subscribed to using the old software package. I have visions of NYPizzaNut doing like the guy in that famous video caught by a surveillance camera of a man having a problem with a computer and becoming so frustrated he trashed the whole setup.

Maybe now that NYPizzaNut can again post on the Dayton thread, some of the 'load' will be alleviated.

Also, the title (God willing the software allows it) of the Cincinnati thread could be changed with the words "Not Dayton" slugged in somehow. Hopefully, people will figure out there is a Dayton thread as well.
 
Addendum: I found a few more of those kinds of videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqkGfinCFs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt_n6w8Rwcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mhyvwyCrPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqkxrmqhpZc&NR=1
 

I agree that Cincinnati and Dayton is arguably one big metroplex, but for the sake of more accessible organization, I like having two separate threads for each region.  (Otherwise, the Dayton posts would probably be lost among all the Cincy posts.) 

I have no problem posting to either one when applicable, but I try to keep Dayton stuff in the Dayton thread, because it's the polite and sensible thing to do.  It also makes it easier to find the relevant reviews/discussion later on if they're where they're supposed to be. 

NYPIzzaNut


A Brown County thread does not seem like such a good idea since so few members here live in this area. 

But... you won't know how much interest there'll be in it unless you try, right?  And all it costs is a minute of your time.  Roadfood doesn't penalize users for low-traffic posts.  ;P

I'm sure TJ didn't realize how long his Cincy thread would run or how much attention it would attract when he started it.  But let's face it, this is not a high risk gamble here.  Just start your own thread, and then you won't have to deal with other peoples' complaints that you're making off-topic posts, people will be able to find your posts, and each thread will benefit from far better organization.

Very easy solution here, guys.  And it's much more reasonable than insisting that anyone should be able to post whatever they want, wherever they want.  That doesn't strike me as being particularly logical or considerate.

NYPIzzaNut

If we can post about  Ky and IN  restaurants and Eastgate in the Cinci thread what is wrong with Brown or Adams county places being mentioned there?    

Because it makes the thread more disorganized, and it makes information about Brown county more difficult to find for the people who might be interested?  Seriously.  If I'm looking for information on sushi, I'm not going to automatically look in a thread about BBQ.  And if I was reading a thread about BBQ and stumbled upon a bunch of sushi posts, I'd be annoyed.

You stand a far better chance of generating interest in Brown county roadfood if you put it in a separate thread and keep it organized so people can actually find it rather than scrolling through god-knows-how-many Cincy posts for it.

Again, despite the fact that I disagree with much of what is being said here, I very much appreciate that you have all chosen to confine the non-topical discussion here, rather than place it in the Cincinnati Eats thread, which has been a problem of late

now, onto the points made

Re: you're [TJ] not a moderator
duh

Re: "my rules"
I don't make any rules.  I am not a moderator, admin, or the board owner.  I am just a member of the boards, same as anyone else.  Anyone talking about "my rules" is badly misinformed about how these boards operate.

Re: changing the thread title
I wold hope that the moderators would not do so, knowing that if someone wished to discuss a slightly broader topic, say "SW Ohio Eateries" (which is what all of you seem to want but are not willing to do so) that the person wishing to do so need only open a thread with that title and proceed to discuss. 

re: Middletown borderline
I only suggested that as a working line of demarcation when the question arose when the Dayton thread was started where the one started and the other ended.  Middletown was one suggestion of several, as I recall, and is no better and no worse than any other.  It simply is a reasonable point on the map to us for this purpose.  There is no "rule" in place enforcing this.  I consider it like unto a "gentleman's agreement" and suspect most others do as well.  It helps maintain the topicality of both threads.

re: Dayton and Cincinnati being one city
This is simply wrong.  I can using the same logic (if one could call it that, and clearly, some members here think they can) connect any two cities in the county, albeit I need a longer sentence (a bleeds into b bleeds into c bleeds into d etc etc).  Perhaps in the coastal east, cities are more closely blended because of high speed public transportation between them.  We dont have that here.

re: ridiculous example.
The womens bowling example was chosen to be over the top enough to illustrate my point.  We have a post now in the Cincinnati thread where someone talks about eating at a Quaker Steak and Lube in Michigan.  Earlier, certain members wanted to talk on and on about Troni's, which is most certainly in Dayton, not in Cincinnati.  The over the top example served to illustrate my point of the value of topicality

Re: so whats topical?
Ultimately, the moderators determine whether a given post strays sufficiently from topicality for an action to be taken.  That said, I think (almost) everyone can agree when the issue is clear cut - for example, Troni's is clearly not in Cincinnati. The fact that the mods have not acted to move or remove a questionable post does not constitute their acceptance of the topicality of a given post, because frankly, I dont think they have the time to review each and every single post made on this huge messageboard.  No fault of theirs, but they are a small volunteer force and there are thousands of folks posting.

That said, It is my understanding that a mod will simply make a judgement call based on the title of the thread as to whether a given post is topical.  Since the original poster sets the thread title, this original intent is of some value - ie the thread opener opens a thread with the intent to discuss the stated subject.

so......what was my intent?

Pretty much the area within the I-275 loop and then for some distance beyond, with the area being progressively less and less related to the topic the further away it is from I-275.  Did I have in mind a magical line of demarcation, with one side good to go and the other side verboten? Heck no - and I still dont.  But I can say that while discussing Richards in Hamilton is in my opinion topical, it is less topical than discussing Noce's or Adriaticos.  There are topics that are a good fit, those that somewhat fit, and those that do not fit at all.  Tronis (for example) does not fit at all.  I dont think Brown County is a good fit, and since there seems to be some eagerness to talk about it a lot, I suggested the opening of a new topic.

re: the market area
It is my counter-contention that the vast majority of those living in Cincinnati an Northern Ky do not regularly drive to Dayton to eat.  Period.  If you live in Monroe, I can see one driving to either far more easily.  I consider myself a dedicated Roadfooder and yet have driven to Dayton exactly once myself on a roadfood mission - to eat at Troni's.  I fully intend to make another trip to get to Crabill's and perhaps another to Pine Club.  But when the average resident of Cincinnati decides to go out to eat, and starts thinking about where they are going to go, do you really honesty believe that anything in Dayton is even in consideration?   Quite honestly, I don't even consider Middletown or Monroe, despite the fairly quick access via I-75

re: preferring the management solve the hangup
Not a good idea.  The mod staff numbers under a half dozen, all volunteer, and without fixed hours.  There are thousands of posters.  They are overwhelmed as it is, and frankly, they also are roadfooders who prefer to spend their time on here same as we all do - reading and talking about trips, eats, and other roadfood-type topics.  When they do put their "mod" hats on, they are primarily concerned with the really bad stuff like hate speech, spam, obscenity, and the like.  If tasked with resolving this particular issue, I would not be surprised at all if the solution they would decide upon was to ban all posters who have been involved in the conflict........after all, no posters in conflict = problem gone.  You and I might not personally consider that fair, but in the larger scheme of things, our individual presences (or absences) here are a small thing.   It is a privilege rather than a right to be here.  No, it is better by far that we do what we can to police ourselves - following the rules, and trying to get along with each other as best we can, even when we disagree.

T.J. you seem to be the poster with the most rigid definition of what defines the Cincinnati area.  Al (who is a moderator) gave his opinion and it seems to be more toward the broad definition. I'm going to use his opinion as my guideline.

this really is the funniest thread in a long time.

TJ
   If we stuck to the suggestion you make, we could not include any comments about Jungle Jim's in an evaluation of Cincinnati !!!  That doesn't work for me.
As I said before, to a visitor the geography is somewhat less definitive than it might be for a neighborhood dweller in one of the suburbs.  I live about 100 miles from Cincinnati and I certainly consider the "new" riverboat casino complex in Lawernceburg Indiana to part of the Cincinnati environs... I would not extend that ring to the S W Indiana small-town "Hot Chicken" locations described so well by my friend Cajun King. King's Island and that area out I-71 would be part of the city as would the Northern Kentucky suburbs, even thos outside the 275 Highway .

This is not a judgement by the Powers of the website...only an opinion from a semi-closeby resident who has to erase the nasty comments when they get posted.

Relax, and keep the list growing.

Mr Mayor: With my apologies, Al - I think you misread what I wrote

Within I-275, yes, absolutely, but also -- "and then for some distance beyond"

So absolutely Lawrenceburg would be in there - heck, I-275 exits there - and Kings Island is a mere two exits up I-71 from I-275, so it too falls well within my general description.  Jungle Jim's is just a few miles up the road from I-275, and has always been considered a key foodie (not just roadfoodie) attraction in Cincinnati.

All that said, I do think that (in general) the wider the area one considers to be "Greater Cincinnati", the more diffuse the topic becomes, and therefore less useful as a resource to travellers passing through this area as well.

Delilah: I am happy to see that having denigrated my own opinions as 'rigid', you have chosen to be entirely open and flexible in your own stance.

Bill Voss:  I don't know how we could even have this discussion without your considerate and insightful contributions to this thread.  Thank God for you.

Very funny thread. Sort of. Alot of us travel between the cities. My problem is that when a specific food style or type of restaurant  is discussed in the forum you cannot recommend or compare a place north of the city. Thats why I started the: Where to eat in Dayton Ohio North of  Middletown thread because I crossed the imaginary line way back when in the Cincy thread and was requested not to do that. I love TJ's Cincy thread and it is one of the most valueable threads on this site. He polices it and keeps it from straying off topic. For that I commend him. It irks me sometimes but  he is right. He will also regularily post other threads within his thread to help others. By doing so it has kept his thread current and active as the place to go when concerning Cincinnatti. It is a great thread and if it gets HiJacked too much it will no longer be relivent and on topic. We are a tough group (myself included) and should respect the rules of the thread. Dont take it personal. I dont. There are over 2200 posts in that thread with a ton of information over the past 6 years and it would be a shame to taint it. Possibly the most informative, on topic, and current thread on this site. TJ deserves credit for keeping it that way. It was done by being RIGID which is good. He is also very respectful in his requests. TJ has paid his dues and should be allowed to monitor that thread and cull out the off topic stuff...Russ

Russ Jackson


Very funny thread. Sort of. Alot of us travel between the cities. My problem is that when a specific food style or type of restaurant  is discussed in the forum you cannot recommend or compare a place north of the city. Thats why I started the: Where to eat in Dayton Ohio North of  Middletown thread because I crossed the imaginary line way back when in the Cincy thread and was requested not to do that. I love TJ's Cincy thread and it is one of the most valueable threads on this site. He polices it and keeps it from straying off topic. For that I commend him. It irks me sometimes but  he is right. He will also regularily post other threads within his thread to help others. By doing so it has kept his thread current and active as the place to go when concerning Cincinnatti. It is a great thread and if it gets HiJacked too much it will no longer be relivent and on topic. We are a tough group (myself included) and should respect the rules of the thread. Dont take it personal. I dont. There are over 2200 posts in that thread with a ton of information over the past 6 years and it would be a shame to taint it. Possibly the most informative, on topic, and current thread on this site. TJ deserves credit for keeping it that way. It was done by being RIGID which is good. He is also very respectful in his requests. TJ has paid his dues and should be allowed to monitor that thread and cull out the off topic stuff...Russ

I have begun a new thread which will cover SW Ohio in total including bordering nearby counties of contiguous states.

It may be found here:
http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tm.aspx?m=523987&high=

I lunch with a group who lives all over the area each week so we hit places that many members may not find covered on the greater Cinci or greater Dayton threads.

We of course do eat in the Cinci and Dayton areas a  lot also - it is an open chat thread format not confined to just my comments or those of our lunch group members - one of who started me posting on this site but for now has been quiet a while due to initial confusion about navigating this newly reconfigured message board.

Please feel to join in the fun there or continue to post with us on the other two threads that have been around a while.

I still know people that do the commute each day in both direstions.  With the central hub of freeways we have its a 45 min trip from Blue Ash to Fairborn.  I still say there will always be some reason for overlap.  Now Columbus/Cincinnati would be a no-brainer!

This could be the best thread ever in the history of the universe.

And the previous post might be the least useful in the history of these forums

I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

Luckily we never had this sort of debate about territorial borders in SoCal.  San Bernardino is roughly 80 miles from the Santa Monica Beach,  and Simi Valley is well over 100 miles from the SE L A/Orange Cty communities. If the SoCal folks ever tried to subdivide they would form a group of 'City-States' that would make 19th century Germany look like an empty map !!