Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law

Page: < 123 > Showing page 2 of 3
Author
RC51Mike
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 446
  • Joined: 2003/03/10 13:00:00
  • Location: Wilmington, DE
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/06/25 09:12:02 (permalink)
The false umbrella advertising annoys me. I got a hot dog on my way out of a Home Depot recently that had a Dietz and Watson umbrella but this was no D&W hot dog. A mushy, tasteless Oscar Meyerish abomination. I was already gone by the time I discovered the shameless bait and switch. Next time, I shall boldly confront the purveyor ala John Fox... or dig through their trash.

I just love John's obsession, dedication and contribution to the art and science of hot doggery. He is the superhero of hot dogs. He should be crowned "Super Dawg" or "Super Duper Weiner" if it didn't involve tradename infringement.
#31
guspas
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 197
  • Joined: 2003/06/01 02:47:00
  • Location: Evanston, IL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/02 16:24:49 (permalink)
I have spoken to a few manufacturers of hot dogs and yes they will specially make a dog for you. Now, there is a minimum quantity that must be ordered. Unless you sell alot or have the freezer space, this won't work. I know Superdawg in IL has theirs made unless the rep was lying to me.
#32
John Fox
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 2336
  • Joined: 2000/12/03 14:29:00
  • Location: Union, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/02 18:40:36 (permalink)
The rep was lying to you. Superdawg uses a Sinai 48 brand frank made by Best Kosher out of Chicago, not to be confused with Best Provisions out of Newark.

Just recently I went to a place that I've been wanting to visit for a few years. Maui's in Wildwood, N.J. The owner claimed that the dogs were made by them (Maui's). When I was there, I saw no sausage making equipment, so I inquired further and was told that the dogs were not made on premise, but in a nearby pork store by a family member according to the grandfather's secret recipe. I didn't know whether to believe it or not. I tasted the dog and remarked that it was very similar to Hofmann's of Syracuse. This dog is available in my area at Wegmans Supermarkets only. I noticed in an article posted at Maui's that his family was from Syracuse. Coincidence? Curiosity got the better of me (it usually does when it comes to hot dogs) and I contacted someone from Hofmann's. They heard of Maui's and admitted that they have sold them dogs.

Let me be blunt. Most people who claim that they either make their own dogs, or have them made specially for them are lying. They do this to have people think that they are selling something unique that you can only get at their place. But I did say most, not all. The Galloping Hill Inn is one example of a place that has a dog (made by Grote & Weigel of Conn.) made to a different recipe. There are others. But for the most part, hot dog manufacturers, even big ones like Sabrett, make only one or 2 recipes. Sometimes 3. They may make dogs in different sizes, but it is too labor intensive to make a different recipe for each client. The person in charge of private label at Sabrett told me this. If you look at some past posts, I have gone into more detail . Katz's, Papaya King, and Gray's Papaya use the standard recipe Sabrett frank, although Katz's is slightly larger in size. But Katz's and Papaya King both falsely claim that the franks are made specially for them. Katz's sometimes even says that they make the dogs themselves on premise.
#33
jinjo76
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 204
  • Joined: 2002/08/01 13:45:00
  • Location: Oakland Park, FL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/02 19:09:57 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by ScreenBear

Fellow RoadFooders,
Do you frequent a hot dog place that either, A.---Won't divulge the brand of frank they sell? or, B.---Persists in declaring their dogs are made especially for them from a secret recipe?

If not, which brand does your favorite hot dog haunt serve?
The Bear


Vienna Beef were I go.

http://www.hollyeats.com/HotDogHeaven.htm

Jonathan
#34
HankNBugsy
Hamburger
  • Total Posts : 79
  • Joined: 2006/06/03 11:19:00
  • Location: La Vernia, TX
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/03 15:40:14 (permalink)
Does anyone know if Fuddruckers makes their own dogs or uses a particular brand?
#35
ScreenBear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 1505
  • Joined: 2005/09/18 09:58:00
  • Location: Westfield, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/03 17:04:51 (permalink)
While I'm not certain about other Fuddruckers, the one on Route #22 West, Bridgewater, New Jersey, prepares a 1/4 lb., all-beef, grilled Kahn's frank, served on a buttered, toasted, New England bun, large enough to accommodate the dog.
The Bear
#36
HankNBugsy
Hamburger
  • Total Posts : 79
  • Joined: 2006/06/03 11:19:00
  • Location: La Vernia, TX
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/03 18:27:03 (permalink)
thanks Screenbear! With the exception of Nathan's, most of our locally available grocery store brands are pretty disgusting.
#37
HankNBugsy
Hamburger
  • Total Posts : 79
  • Joined: 2006/06/03 11:19:00
  • Location: La Vernia, TX
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/03 19:10:46 (permalink)
Not many people know that at the same time Fuddruckers was born there was a similar concept restaurant also opened here in San Antonio called Ackumpuckys, and actually their food was the better of the two. However, Fudd's wanted to grow and franchise and Ackumpuckys was content to be a local hangout. Fudd's sued Ackumpuckys and won, driving Ackumpuckys out of business.
#38
big g in joisey
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 214
  • Joined: 2003/08/13 02:35:00
  • Location: Kearny, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/03 22:31:35 (permalink)
Maybe it's in the way some people are asked,if the person asking is confrontational or pushy,this usually turns most people off,and more than likely you can forget about any info,but,just maybe if you politely ask the vendor/owner after eating something and pay the person a compliment on their product they would be a little more at ease and less suspect to someones questions.
#39
UncleVic
Sirloin
  • Total Posts : 6025
  • Joined: 2003/10/14 14:56:00
  • Location: West Palm Beach, FL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/04 00:03:02 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by John Fox

The rep was lying to you. Superdawg uses a Sinai 48 brand frank made by Best Kosher out of Chicago, not to be confused with Best Provisions out of Newark.

Just recently I went to a place that I've been wanting to visit for a few years. Maui's in Wildwood, N.J. The owner claimed that the dogs were made by them (Maui's). When I was there, I saw no sausage making equipment, so I inquired further and was told that the dogs were not made on premise, but in a nearby pork store by a family member according to the grandfather's secret recipe. I didn't know whether to believe it or not. I tasted the dog and remarked that it was very similar to Hofmann's of Syracuse. This dog is available in my area at Wegmans Supermarkets only. I noticed in an article posted at Maui's that his family was from Syracuse. Coincidence? Curiosity got the better of me (it usually does when it comes to hot dogs) and I contacted someone from Hofmann's. They heard of Maui's and admitted that they have sold them dogs.

Let me be blunt. Most people who claim that they either make their own dogs, or have them made specially for them are lying. They do this to have people think that they are selling something unique that you can only get at their place. But I did say most, not all. The Galloping Hill Inn is one example of a place that has a dog (made by Grote & Weigel of Conn.) made to a different recipe. There are others. But for the most part, hot dog manufacturers, even big ones like Sabrett, make only one or 2 recipes. Sometimes 3. They may make dogs in different sizes, but it is too labor intensive to make a different recipe for each client. The person in charge of private label at Sabrett told me this. If you look at some past posts, I have gone into more detail . Katz's, Papaya King, and Gray's Papaya use the standard recipe Sabrett frank, although Katz's is slightly larger in size. But Katz's and Papaya King both falsely claim that the franks are made specially for them. Katz's sometimes even says that they make the dogs themselves on premise.


Mr Fox... Thanks for the info... Though well known to some of us, your info is priceless to others! Marketing ploys, and lies bite the big one.. Good eye on noting places missing the sausage stuffing equipment... Think about it, how many people look? Darn good info there..


#40
John Fox
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 2336
  • Joined: 2000/12/03 14:29:00
  • Location: Union, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/04 09:10:17 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by big g in joisey

Maybe it's in the way some people are asked,if the person asking is confrontational or pushy,this usually turns most people off,and more than likely you can forget about any info,but,just maybe if you politely ask the vendor/owner after eating something and pay the person a compliment on their product they would be a little more at ease and less suspect to someones questions.


This is true to some extent. When I approach someone for information, I am never confrontational. And I fully understand their reasons for "not divulging the dog". Some freely share information, some can be gently persuaded, while others will not tell you anything regardless of how complimentary you are. Even a bribe will get you nowhere. Not that I've tried this. But sometimes you can get information if you seem like you know what you're talking about. For example, there is a hot dog chili that is sold by food distributors and warehouses cqalled Castleberry. A good tasting, tomatoey chili that is used by many hot dog joints that prefer not to make their own. I've had this chili and can recognize when it's served to me. If you were to ask an owner a general question about his chili, he would almost definitely say that it was homemade. Or at the most say that it was "specially made for him". But if you say something in a kind way, such as "Boy this chili is good! I'm glad I found someone who uses Castleberry!" the owner will be more likely to admit it. The first time I thought a chili might be store bought (at the time I had only had Castleberry once or twice) I said something like this, not truly knowing. And the owner told me it was. Admittedly such info is not important to most people. But for some of us, who like certain dogs and want to be able to have the same thing at home, it's good to be able to find out a dog's identity. Or if a chili sauce is available.
#41
HankNBugsy
Hamburger
  • Total Posts : 79
  • Joined: 2006/06/03 11:19:00
  • Location: La Vernia, TX
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/07/04 11:32:31 (permalink)
okay, ya'll have done me in. I'm craving hot dogs so badly now that I'm about to drive the 30 miles to town to the grocery store!
#42
ScreenBear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 1505
  • Joined: 2005/09/18 09:58:00
  • Location: Westfield, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/09/24 10:14:15 (permalink)
In light of continuing and ever-increasing challenges to our food supply, are there any here who, though previously non-committal, now agree that hot dog vendors should be forthcoming about which brand of hot dog they use?

The Bear
#43
genewj
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 370
  • Joined: 2006/09/02 17:01:00
  • Location: Bradenton, FL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/09/24 21:57:52 (permalink)
I post Sabratt,Best Kosher and Ball Park, will be adding Vienna and all its goodies..
Being in a Snow Bird area we have lots of out of towners
Sarasota and Manatee Counties just completed a study and found that
62% of the snow birds here come from New York, Jersey or Penn. 12-15% from Chicago and mid west area..
#44
genewj
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 370
  • Joined: 2006/09/02 17:01:00
  • Location: Bradenton, FL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2006/09/24 22:05:06 (permalink)
I sell the tubes in a Real Snow Bird area, Sarasota and Manatee Counties..They just completed a study which shows that 62% of our snow birds come from NY,Jersey, Or Penn. anotyher 12-15% from Chicago,Cinc. and the mid west.. in order to satisfy everyone I sell and post Sabratts,Vienna and all its goodies,Best Kosher and Ball Park..I can tell where folks are from by what they order, a good conversation starter..
#45
ScreenBear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 1505
  • Joined: 2005/09/18 09:58:00
  • Location: Westfield, NJ
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/02 09:50:57 (permalink)
As some hot dog consumers are becoming lax and lulled into complacence, I think it's time I re-posted my cautionary about Hot Dog Purveyors who try to veil the identity of their frankfurters. Until that fine day when The Hague makes it an international law to identify your dog in all its specifics, I iterate:
 
As a Hot Dog fancier, it really sticks in my craw when a purveyor of the Noble Frankfurter fails or refuses to identify the brand of Hot Dog he or she is selling. I always want to know. It’s what I do. I also want to know the size, but I won’t push it.

Actually, it all seems a little Medieval in this Age of Information…hiding what kind of food product you expect us to ingest. I mean, it has been a while since Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle.” Some sellers even get angry if you ask…like there’s some unwritten code of the Hot Dog Fraternity against giving away the secret.

On the other hand, many proudly display what type they sell. It’s more often than not good for business. They’re proud of their offering, maybe pay a little extra for the brand name recognition, and are glad to associate with it. It’s what the vendor’s umbrella is all about. It’s shouting out, “Look, I sell Sabrett, or Vienna Beef, or Hebrew National, or Best’s, etc. I’m a Good Guy. It’s All Good. I’ve Nothing to Hide!”

When a seller of Tube Steaks is secretive, or looks askance when I dare ask what it is I’m about to purchase for consumption, I’m put off. The brand might be fine. But just the fact that they don’t care to take me into their trust is a turn off. What else shouldn’t I know?

It’s just good form to be open and above board when dealing with foodstuffs. Though, admittedly, for me the interest is also academic. Whereas Henry Higgins could tell a person’s geography by their dialect, I like to dabble in the descent of the dog...its heritage, lineage, and content of character. And knowing from whence emanates a Frankfurter is key to honing that knowledge.

On a much more basic plane, some folks don’t eat pork; others don’t eat beef, etc. There are dietary considerations of every variation. Hence, it is my contention there ought to be a law. If I ask what brand of hot dog you sell, you have to tell me true.

Do you agree, or would you prefer the seller keeps it to himself?
The Bear


 
#46
6star
Filet Mignon
  • Total Posts : 4388
  • Joined: 2004/01/28 02:03:00
  • Location: West Peoria, IL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/02 10:44:33 (permalink)
I can agree on a requirement for divulging the type of meat(s) in the hot dog (for dietary restrictions, allergies, etc.), but considering the arguments (and put-downs) that sometimes occur even here on Roadfood over which brand is better compared to others, divulging a brand is more than likely to just cause trouble.  Every region has its favorite brands, so unless the seller wishes to brag about the brand he is selling (with umbrellas & signs), I think the seller should have the right to keep the brand name to himself, if he so wishes.
 
A good comparison would be the following: 
Should KFC or Popeye's or Stroud's be required to reveal what brand of chicken they are using?  Or McDonald's and Hardee's or any other burger place have to reveal the specific source(s) of their beef?  Should Subway and Jimmy John's and every diner that sells sandwiches be required to reveal where they get all their different meats and cheeses?  How about Pizza Hut and Papa John's (and every independent pizza place in the U.S.)? 
#47
Gilberts Sausages
Junior Burger
  • Total Posts : 31
  • Joined: 2011/04/11 23:40:00
  • Location: Sheboygan Co., WI
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 00:09:15 (permalink)
I've been looking for groups online that show real passion for their hot dogs, and I think I just found it.  I'm co-owner in a new craft sausage company out of Sheboygan County, WI, and one of the things we our proudest of is our willingness to tell you everything that's in our product.
 
In our all beef frank we use cuts of beef sirloin, and don't add any sodium nitrite, MSG, erythorbates, etc. and list ALL our ingredients on our label including the list of spices (instead of just saying "natural flavors").
 
Our dog is awesome, and the flavor speaks for itself.  But we list EVERYTHING on our label not because we have to, but because consumers have the right to know what they're eating.  Not to mention we're actually proud of what's in our hot dogs.
 
 
 
 
#48
Foodbme
Porterhouse
  • Total Posts : 10284
  • Joined: 2006/09/01 14:56:00
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 02:40:25 (permalink)
Gilberts Sausages

I've been looking for groups online that show real passion for their hot dogs, and I think I just found it.  I'm co-owner in a new craft sausage company out of Sheboygan County, WI, and one of the things we our proudest of is our willingness to tell you everything that's in our product.

In our all beef frank we use cuts of beef sirloin, and don't add any sodium nitrite, MSG, erythorbates, etc. and list ALL our ingredients on our label including the list of spices (instead of just saying "natural flavors").

Our dog is awesome, and the flavor speaks for itself.  But we list EVERYTHING on our label not because we have to, but because consumers have the right to know what they're eating.  Not to mention we're actually proud of what's in our hot dogs.

While we discourage self promotion on here, there's no reason another member can't do a little research to find out about a product. It appears as though these folks have some good eats to offer those of you in the Milwaukee-Green Bay area.
www.gilbertssausages.com
#49
MellowRoast
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 2009
  • Joined: 2007/08/21 06:05:00
  • Location: 'Nooga
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 02:52:28 (permalink)
I'd love to try them.  Sorry I can't get them here.
#50
Foodbme
Porterhouse
  • Total Posts : 10284
  • Joined: 2006/09/01 14:56:00
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 03:01:36 (permalink)
MellowRoast

I'd love to try them.  Sorry I can't get them here.

Their web site says they will be availavble on-line soon. They sound like they have unique ingredients. I'd like to try them also. Especially the one with blue cheese!
#51
John Fox
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 2336
  • Joined: 2000/12/03 14:29:00
  • Location: Union, NJ
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 06:10:51 (permalink)
If their hot dogs are anywhere near as good as Usinger's, I'd love to try them.
#52
ann peeples
Sirloin
  • Total Posts : 8389
  • Joined: 2006/05/21 06:45:00
  • Location: West Allis, Wisconsin
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 10:04:41 (permalink)
Well, John and all, we have fine "wurstmachers" in the Sheboygan area, and I will be on the lookout for these. I am hopeful they are of the same caliber( or better!) as those from Meisfelds or Woodlake Market.
I will keep you posted on my quest.
#53
Foodbme
Porterhouse
  • Total Posts : 10284
  • Joined: 2006/09/01 14:56:00
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 15:44:08 (permalink)
annpeeples

Well, John and all, we have fine "wurstmachers" in the Sheboygan area, and I will be on the lookout for these. I am hopeful they are of the same caliber( or better!) as those from Meisfelds or Woodlake Market.
I will keep you posted on my quest.

Their web site says their available at:
Woodlake Market
795 Woodlake Rd #A
Kohler, WI 53044
 
Festival Foods & Sendiks


#54
joerogo
Filet Mignon
  • Total Posts : 4534
  • Joined: 2006/01/17 17:33:00
  • Location: Pittston, PA
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 15:54:23 (permalink)
I'm with Da Bear on this one.  I want to know what I'm eating.
 
Gilberts Sausages, Let us know when you are able to ship
#55
ann peeples
Sirloin
  • Total Posts : 8389
  • Joined: 2006/05/21 06:45:00
  • Location: West Allis, Wisconsin
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 19:20:07 (permalink)
I am nearest Sendiks-will check them out soon...
#56
DawnT
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 1286
  • Joined: 2005/11/29 11:01:00
  • Location: South FL
  • Status: offline
RE: Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/12 20:46:33 (permalink)
There's a fundamental difference between an unprocessed ingredient and a processed food. Raw meats, while sourcing can be important and tastes varies due to the source and quality levels, meat is still raw meat as one brand of H&R flour is basically the same as another H&R flour. The wheat sources may differ and protien ranges slightly vary, but essentially they are the same. Ditto the chicken example. While it may be packed in a brine and phosphates, flash frozen, or iced, it's still raw chicken if it came from Perdue,Sanderson,Pilgrim's Pride, or Tyson.
 
Hot dogs and sandwich meats are processed foods. Their formulation varies, their production varies, they may be processed on equipment with other meats that dietary restrictions exist. The same would go for processed bread. While Bologna uses beef and Wonder Bread may use a Northwestern wheat as it's core ingredient, there is a world of difference between brands of these processed foods and their competitors.
KFC or Popeye's would be justified by saying they use 100% USDA inspected fryers and maybe specify if they are pre-brined and likewise a BK or McD's stating they use 100% ground beef. The source for all practical purposes is immaterial.
 
Subway's cold cuts, a Hot Dog vendor's dogs, or even their bread being a processed food should be subject to source disclosure. There is no trade secret, or proprietary process or information involved regarding the sourcing. As far as a competive advantage goes, a small vendor with a cart has little to loose outside of his immediate sales area unless somebody sets up across the street selling the same dog for a lower price. A large vendor has little to gain by emulating a competitor. It's just plain petty when you have a small change operator refusing to name his source...unless he's ashamed of it.
 
 
 
6star

A good comparison would be the following: 
Should KFC or Popeye's or Stroud's be required to reveal what brand of chicken they are using?  Or McDonald's and Hardee's or any other burger place have to reveal the specific source(s) of their beef?  Should Subway and Jimmy John's and every diner that sells sandwiches be required to reveal where they get all their different meats and cheeses?  How about Pizza Hut and Papa John's (and every independent pizza place in the U.S.)? 


#57
Gilberts Sausages
Junior Burger
  • Total Posts : 31
  • Joined: 2011/04/11 23:40:00
  • Location: Sheboygan Co., WI
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/13 10:56:06 (permalink)
John Fox

If their hot dogs are anywhere near as good as Usinger's, I'd love to try them.

 
John-
 
Tried to reply to your message, but was blocked by the spam filter (I'm too new to roadfood apparently).  Send me an e-mail at eric@gilbertssausages.com so we can communicate and figure out a way to get you some of these bad boys.
 
To everyone else, thanks for your supportive responses!  I realized I was tip-toeing the line of self-promotion, but we're just the little guy who set up shop right in Johnsonville's backyard.  So we really are genuinely passionate about our products...hard not to sound that way sometimes.
#58
Dog Boss
Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 206
  • Joined: 2009/06/05 19:42:00
  • Location: Central Jersey, NJ
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/13 12:12:44 (permalink)
Gilberts Sausages

John Fox

If their hot dogs are anywhere near as good as Usinger's, I'd love to try them.


John-

Tried to reply to your message, but was blocked by the spam filter (I'm too new to roadfood apparently).  Send me an e-mail at eric@gilbertssausages.com so we can communicate and figure out a way to get you some of these bad boys.

To everyone else, thanks for your supportive responses!  I realized I was tip-toeing the line of self-promotion, but we're just the little guy who set up shop right in Johnsonville's backyard.  So we really are genuinely passionate about our products...hard not to sound that way sometimes.

when your ready to ship............. i want to order also.......... i'm in jersey with john fox...... maybe we do a split the order. john get's 1lb i get 4lb type of thing LOL
 
#59
Benzee
Double Chili Cheeseburger
  • Total Posts : 1878
  • Joined: 2004/07/26 16:40:00
  • Location: Bullville , NY
  • Status: offline
Re:Divulging the Dog...There Ought to be a Law 2011/04/13 15:24:39 (permalink)
Hello all ,
Put me on the list also , as long as you can get them to NY I'm in
And thanks to Screenbear for reviving a  five yer old thread
Benzee
#60
Page: < 123 > Showing page 2 of 3
Jump to:
© 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1