Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved?

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mayor al
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2010/06/14 10:36:16 (permalink)

Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved?

We have an interesting family circumstance (to us) that has generated a desire to have two groups with the same surname, who come from the same small village in what is now the Czech Republic, to complete a DNA testing experience to prove (yes or no) that the two groups are indeed related.
 
If the test says yes, then depending upon the number of matches found when comparing the 46 elements of the samples, they will be able to narrow the number of generations back we have to go to find the 'link' .
 
Prior to this we have some supportive info. Both families the male was born into the family IN the village. One, my grandfather was born in 1880's and lived there until 1912 when he came to the USA. The second is my age, born in the village and left with the Russian troubles of 1968.
The name is not a common one, but definitely Czech in origin.
 
Our side has a paper trail (tree) that is complete for five generations back from me. We have names,birth,marriage,death records for everyone back to my great great grandfather (b.1820). The other family has no paper trace, but they have the language skills and a lot of contact with folks living in the area to be able to discuss this and ask questions etc. There are 'tales' of an ancestor who was the bell-ringer in the only Catholic church in the area in their group...While our side has a story about a member who worked in the church (Janitor?) at about the same time (early 1800's) Unfortuneately the church burned in 1854 so all real paper records were lost.
 
On the down side both families have contact with relatives who still live in the village (400 population) and those relatives say NO link...
 
My guess is that the two groups had a parting of the ways (feud) at some point and disowned each other somewhere in the past.   We hope the test will show that we are indeed 'cousins' of sorts.
 
Have any of you had any experience with DNA testing  for Genealogy ???  TTM's paternity denial tests don't count in this experience !!  I'll be interested in any feedback as this is a new area for us !
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    Davydd
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 11:12:10 (permalink)
    It is my understanding the testing is general in nature. At least the big sponsored ones. I don't think they are designed to specifically link families but more to say where in history you came from. So if both sides test and tell you that you link back through central Europe it may not tell you anything at all. In depth private testing to match both sides of the family would be another story. I suppose that could be done to make a determination.

    I haven't tested. I have an ancestry database with nearly 3,000 direct ancestors going back to when verifiable records were first recorded. Assuming there were no hankie pankies  in my family tree I pretty much know my genetics.
    #2
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 12:17:16 (permalink)
    Davy

    I spoke with the folks at Ancestry.com at length several times before ordering the two tests. They are one of the larger and longer running computer-assisted genealogy services...Linked indirectly, if not culturally to the LDS Genealogy Society.  Since I am the 'buyer' I will get the results for both tests and have access to them when they are added to the data base that Ancestry.com maintains. The two guys doing the samples will each receive their own results, and access to the data base.

    I am not a sample contributor because I am a descendant in the family thru my Mother (female) and the participants need to be direct MALE descendants. So one of my male cousins, son of a male descendant is doing it. On the other side the contributor is a direct male descendant.

    The data will tell us Yes or No that there is a gentic connection between the two samples...and compare them to the top 250 matches in the data base to whom we may be related as well.  Since we are using the 46 point test, we will be able to match the two samples along those 46 points. The more points match, the closer the link probably is...down to about 7 generations back.  Pinning it to a specific generation isn't currently possible, but getting close will be a big help.

    I have paper-trail tree documentation for more than a thousand in my father (Ohio) and my Mothers (Czech) families. Obviously it is easier to find the info about the Ohio relatives than the Czech. Between the wars and invasions and natural issues the Czech side is full of questions and dead-ends (no pun) that we hope the DNA will solve at least a couple.

    There is a basic 12 point test that does what you describe, for those who are not trying to compare two known samples. That basic test will put you in a general area map that really means little...There are certainly better ways to determine if your family originated in Poland or Portugal !!  We are looking for more specific data.

    I certainly will share what I learn here.
    #3
    kozel
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 13:14:23 (permalink)
    Besides Ancestry.com you might want to look at http://www.familysearch.org which is from the LDS. 
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    joclyn
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 17:23:02 (permalink)
    this is VERY interesting, mayor!!  i hope the results are what you expect/hope for them to be.  if the name is not a very common one, then, there is likely to be a connection - one that was broken due to some 'feud' years ago.    (anyone with a slokak background is well-known for holding grudges - even against family members) so, it's likely are related! 
     
    i look forward to seeing what the results are!!  any idea how long it takes for this testing to be completed?
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 17:34:01 (permalink)
    Joclyn,

    I received notice the test were shipped to the "donors" today. Given a few days to get there (Michigan and Delaware) then a day or so to complete and return that part of the process is about 2 weeks in length. The company says 2-4 weeks after receipt to get the data organized and posted, so roughly the end of July on the outside of the timeline !  BTW the test uses a cheek swab, a simple way to get the data needed.

    The neat part of it is that both parties have a real interest in seeing if the 'guess' we have is correct, or are the folk-tales handed down in the village are the real story !!
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    enginecapt
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 20:37:19 (permalink)
    What's that test run in $$$?
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 20:54:56 (permalink)
    $184.00 each ($368.00 for the two of them including shipping etc)

    The two cousins on my side (twins 60 yrs old), the one guy on the other side, and myself are splitting the cost 4 ways...so $92.00 gets me an answer.

    There are two levels of less expensive tests that give fewer points to compare. We decided we want the best possible opportunity to find how close we are...if we are !!
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    joclyn
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/14 23:59:14 (permalink)
    that pricing isn't all that bad when you consider the amount of markers they are testing.  and the timeframe is much quicker than i'd have thought! 
    #9
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/15 08:59:43 (permalink)
    Sales Tax was interesting... By having the test sent to the volunteers at home (Michigan and Delaware) no tax was added. If they had been sent to me, apparently Indiana demands the tax ($25.00) be added. We did save a few bucks that way.
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    mar52
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/15 10:17:50 (permalink)
    Very exciting.  I've been working on a family tree since November.

    Origins Polish with Czech and Argentine branches.

    I sent out an email to someone who "manages" a lot of people related to my Argentine relatives and she answered me today with:

    "I will try to found out what you want to know, but as i understand it we are talking about a very distant family relation"

    Uhhhhh.....  Isn't that what it's all about?

    Al,  I'm quite interested in your quest.  
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    PapaJoe8
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 13:40:14 (permalink)
    Al, I am of coarse pullin for yall to be closely related. Neat that this is available!

    They can do more w/ Mitochondrial DNA but I think it is out of reach for normal folks. That is what they used to figure out that we are all more closely related from not as long ago as most folks thought.

    They were also able to use that to figure out that domestic cats came from a near eastern wild cat 10,000 years ago, rather than from African ancestry, like most thought, 5,000 years ago.
    Joe
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 15:25:46 (permalink)
    Thanks Joe... You're right, we are thinking in terms of within the framework timeline of written history as opposed to going back to "Lucy"  in Dr Leakie's search in the African Rift Valley (although that might be a very long-range goal someday!)  we have used elderly residents of the rural Czech village to solve some of the basic info needs, and if you are a member of one of the major genealogy services on-line you can get a large about of 'certifiable' data from records available on line.

    The question we have is finite. Two families from the same small geographic area in the Czech Republic, with relatives still in that area, share an uncommon surname. We will be surprised if the DNA says we are not connected. Lack of the paper-trail records (church fire) makes pinning down the exact point of connection difficult(impossible) at this time. The DNA will tell us if we are in "the Ball Park" (within 6 or 7 generations of the contact-link) which what we THINK will happen.
    AL
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    Born in OKC
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 17:48:12 (permalink)
    mayor al -
     
    Let me tell a story about someone in my family using DNA testing to show a relationship that was long suspected but never proven.  It was the idea of one of my relatives who I now think of as "my smart cousin."   She did the work and the running - I just gave a sample.
     
    My family name has been in what is now the USA for about 370 years when three men with that name settled in New England.  There were  traditions that they were brothers but no proof.  A comprehensive geneaological study was completed  in the 1890's and books published but no proof was found of the supposed connection between the first three who came here.  Part of the problem was that the family name could not be traced across the Atlantic.  Anyway, I'll call those first three settlers A, B, and C.  My smart cousin and I are descended from "C" and the paper trail is good. 
     
    My smart cousin met a man descended from "B" and he also had a good paper trail and he underwent DNA testing as did her brother.  They match in enough markers to show a recent connection.  (Actually the results were identical for markers tested.) My smart cousin then approached me and asked that I have the DNA tests which I did.  It so happens that her brother and I have the same family and given names because we are both named for the same ancestor.  To prevent someone from someday asking if the test results and records were mixed up, my tests  were made in a different lab than her with result that all three of us, the man descended from "B" and the two of us from "C," were found to have the same markers.
     
    I don't know that my smart cousin has published the results of this exercize.  I would cite the article if I knew.
     
    DNA testing is not my bag. but I think it has been shown that the family tradition of at least two lines of people with my name are related.  Maybe some one else will bring in people descended from "A" someday.  It is also possible that that will help with research  into the origins of the family name.
     
    Oh, one more thing.  From our common great-grandfather's time at least, no hanky pank in two lines descended from "C," right?
     
    I hope you will share with us future developments so far as research about your family is concerned.
     
     
     
     
     
    #14
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 18:03:48 (permalink)
    OKC
      We are working in somewhat similiar circumstances ! I am assumming you are Male. They do make a Maternal/paternal test, but according to the info we got, the 46 point Paternal-line test is the "best" to use with the moderate price part of the consideration.

    A Plus for this is that both parties know something of their background, and now have met and discussed the ramifications of any results to the satisfaction of all. We are pretty sure the link will be between 5 and 10 generations back from our (age 65+-) generation.

    I will indeed report what I can about the results...and the result of the results !!
    #15
    Born in OKC
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 20:17:40 (permalink)
    mayor al -
     
    I am indeed male and probably should have said so although I think that that your remarks made that a given if I had anything valid to say.  My remote ancestor, '"C" as designated above, lived from ca 1605 - 1687 and IIRC I am ten generations down so our circumstances are similar.
     
    I suspect that your genetic test service will if you desire, like mine, send you the names of others with the same markers as you have.  In my case only a few of the names are the same as mine and mostly I have never heard of them.  It is very interesting. 
     
    It is interesting also  that you have a Czech heritage.  I DO NOT, SFAIK, but my mother's family was in the 16th century likely living in the Sudetenland, South Germany, the border territory that was Hitler's  excuse for grabbing part of and later all of Czechoslovakia in the late thirties.   I am sure that your family there has horrific stories to tell about those times and the Communist era after the War.  My mother's family moved to Prussia by the 18th Century and later to Russia before coming to the USA in the 19th Century.
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/16 20:45:09 (permalink)
    My nuclear family  (Mother and grandparents) came in 1912.  Prague was then part of Austria/Hungary. The male sample from our side of the family is a 60+ yr old cousin.

    The sample from the other family who was born in the same village in Czech as my grandfather, (same surname) left due to the 1968 Russian invasion. Both sides have living relations in the old village and both side relatives have said we "May" be distant relatives but no one knows (or seems to care) and details or info about a possible link.

    We are really looking forward to receiving the info about the link between the two families. Yes the test will put these two individuals (assumming some sort of match) into a group of 250 who come the closest to matching our samples.
     
    Our American branch of the family did indeed maintain communications with the Czech family all during the period 1912-present day.  During the Nazi and Soviet occupation my Grandmother and Mother spent a lot of time fixing clothing to send and in some cases sewing coins into the lining etc to provide support for those in need in the old country. I don't have the language skills that my Mother had, so my communications has been thru written letters and email, save for some personal visits with Czech family who vacation here at times.
     
    For the past 15 years the gentleman who is the sample for the "other family" has assisted me with translations of notes received in Czech.  We get along quite well !
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/20 20:00:15 (permalink)
    The test kits have been received by the two "donors". Next to swab the cheeks and ship the samples back to the company.
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    enginecapt
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/20 20:28:52 (permalink)
    One of the many surprising results of our research is this relative. Carbine (with the s dropped) is a family name here in the USA.
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    joclyn
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/20 21:50:49 (permalink)
    enginecapt

    One of the many surprising results of our research is this relative. Carbine (with the s dropped) is a family name here in the USA.

    interesting find and i'm surprised it wasn't common knowledge in your family. 
     
    that is a fantabulous site!!!
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    enginecapt
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/20 22:08:07 (permalink)
    I'm pretty sure he was from a distant enough branch that no one was all that familiar with. Our side had been in the country since the 18th century and his side was still in the ancestral part of England.
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    mar52
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/21 01:37:36 (permalink)
    VERY interesting!

    I've just found a whole bunch of cousins (first, 3 times removed and 3rd cousins, etc) who llive in Argentina.  The woman who I wrote about in my last post realized that the names I sent her were also part of her family.

    If you want to do a family tree, www.geni.com is a wonderful site.  I'm addicted to it and chocolate.
    #22
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/22 12:32:59 (permalink)
    OK, Progress Report--- Both donors have swabbed their cheeks and put the samples in the return shipping packets provided.  Now we wait (a week for shipping, and 4-6 weeks for processing the samples and posting the data).
      I will post the connection or lack of when we get the data.

    Since you guys have posted a couple of genealogy-related sites I will put in a comment about Ancestry.com, the outfit that does this DNA testing. I have used them several times for assistance with my Family Tree Maker Program over the past 20 years. I have always been satisfied with the responses they gave to questions.  Well this time they have really outdone themselves.  In addition to a very good oral response to my questions, they have provided automated assistance in my search for documentation of various family activities (When did great-grandfather come to the USA??) They answered with the shipping manifest for his original arrival in 1913 (a year after my Mom and her parents came) and also his passport Application in 1920 and manifests from passenger ships he used when returning to the USA from Europe in 1921, 1927, and 1931. The old guy really got around !  I would not have thought to check that, but Ancestry.com did and sent me the data !!!!!

    I am pretty happy with the service I am receiving from them.
    AL
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    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/26 10:50:29 (permalink)
    DNA Test samples arrived safely at the lab. Email notice of this arrived overnight  to me.  The clock is ticking...
    #24
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/30 18:25:23 (permalink)
    First results for one of the Sample-givers was posted today. He had positive results on 44 of the 46 point test, so hopefully whom-ever he matches with will also have a wide-base of results. That gives a much better chance for accurate measurement of the 'generations' between us.

    We have to wait until the second person's Test results are completed in the lab before being able to compare our two family lines.

    One interesting side note. The sample test that is completed shows several matches to others who have tested. In fact two of the 'other tests' show a connection at the " 8 generation back" point. This is a real surprise. Neither of those two have the same family surname. We will be contacting the two folks via the secure message line on the dna site to see how we may be linked??

    More to follow when we get the data for my other cousin.
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    joclyn
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/30 22:20:39 (permalink)
    interesting about the other matches! 
     
    different surname may be due to remarriage and the kids being adopted by the step-father.  or it could be a matter of emigrating that the spelling of the surname was mutilated and/or changed to something else entirely (that was a frequent occurance with the slovak and russian names since they are sometimes so complicated and with the variance of consonants between the native language and english).
     
    hope you can figure out the connection!!
     
    #26
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/06/30 22:30:07 (permalink)
    Yeah, A number of my Czech relatives Americanized their given name when they arrived here to make pronunciation and spelling easier...and maybe to become part of the 'new' country a bit faster. The surnames received the same treatment, but normally not as often, or as radical a change.
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    mar52
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/07/01 00:56:51 (permalink)
    Another good thing about Ancestry.com is that they check with alternate spellings.

    My last name although pronounced similarly is spelled very differently in the different countries where we all live.  These sites check them all.

    www.familysearch.com is a free site where I found some good information.
    #28
    mayor al
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/07/06 17:53:28 (permalink)
    OK  The Test Results are in !!!

    We have found that the two individuals are indeed related. The DNA results show that we are linked 14 generations back (300-350 years back). We were almost certain there would be a link, and we knew it had to be at least 6 or 7 generations back, as we have family data that only mentions (from both sides of the discussion) that we were 'distant' relatives at that point.

    Now we know the real story. In addition, as I mentioned above, both samples brought the same returns, showing a man in Alberta, Canada who is 8 generations removed from both of our guys...and another fellow in Nebraska who is 9 generations back from both of our samples.  We are contacting these two men to see if they would like to swap info about how a link might be found between us.

    This has been a great experiment. According to the folks at the test company, the Maternal DNA test will not give the depth of specific detail that the Paternal test does. It will give basic yes or no answers to the question "Are these two related?" but it won't measure the generations to the link.

    OK That answers that question. I recommend the DNA process to check out any 'possible connections' you may have in your family tree. It was a real neat experience and has brought out a lot of interest from many family members here.
    #29
    mar52
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    Re:Family Tree Genealogy DNA Testing. Anyone involved? 2010/07/06 18:14:23 (permalink)
    How exciting!  I'm happy you got the results you were looking for.

    Very interesting at the least!
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