Global Warming Debate

In the interest of keeping Roadfood Readers informed of all sides of the issues, here is an interesting story regarding the so-called Global Warming Crisis:
Global-Warming Swindle, Hysterics exposed
NRO ^ | March 15, 2007 | Thomas Sowell


The British Broadcasting Corporation has produced a devastating documentary titled "The Great Global Warming Swindle." It has apparently not been broadcast by any of the networks in the United States. But, fortunately, it is available on the Internet. Distinguished scientists specializing in climate and climate-related fields talk in plain English and present readily understood graphs showing what a crock the current global-warming hysteria is. These include scientists from MIT and top-tier universities in a number of countries . . . . While the American public has been led to believe that “all” the leading scientists buy the global-warming hysteria and the political agenda that goes with it, in fact the official reports from the United Nations or the National Academy of Sciences are written by bureaucrats — and then garnished with the names of leading scientists who were “consulted,” but whose contrary conclusions have been ignored.

There is no question that the globe is warming but it has warmed and cooled before, and is not as warm today as it was some centuries ago, before there were any automobiles and before there was as much burning of fossil fuels as today. None of the dire things predicted today happened then.

(Excerpt) Read more of the article at ... (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzA5YjM2MzY0ZGI1OWIyNGI4NTdmY2QxZGU3NzM5NjE=)

And SEE the "The Great Global Warming Swindle" video documentary at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU .

Hello All,
I am not a distinguished scientist, but I once played one in a bar when I was 27 years old. I discover very local cooling then.
And now in a serious vein, but has no scientific data, just my observations and beliefs...
I don't believe in global warming, but do believe in climate change and adjustments.
Mother Earth balances itself as much as possible, reacting to cosmic actions from outside, as well as
external actions from biological creatures that dwell on, and also from internal processes of growth,
age, and creative change from an unknown source.
I believe God or Nature's God, or just nature, (choose whatever you wish or create another explanation)
created a system of evolution or growth system that is very flexible and chaotic. Thus, things will
happen that make good, but can make bad.
I believe that humans are so full of pride, hubris, and paranoia, that we fight against understanding
our place in the cosmic life. We use religion, science, fear, economical and political "power" to shift
human efforts for momentary profits or agendas. Every era or generation has sought an answer or answers for
the stresses, the sorrows, the abuses that plague living in a physical world. Often the human answers have
been so wrong...we have a drought, a plague, a flood, or become economical poor because of the Jews, the non-believers,
the conservative Christians, Moslems, meat-eaters, vegetarians, T.V. watchers, cigarette smokers, bird-watchers,
the homosexuals, the capitalists, the lazy poor, uppity women, long-hairs, bad educational system, etc. etc. etc..
So who do we trust and what do we do?
That is part of our confusion.
We were created or evolved with a disconnection or Free Will from each other and the rest of our physical universe.
We have been searching to reunite with it for so long, and have often made great, noble accomplishments, and also
have shamed the meaning of Life. (I hope I haven't bored or lost anyone thus far in my rambling.)
To cut to the chase...something is happening in our global climate. There is change blowing in the wind. How we
face it, adapt and evolve, or try to change it, is sadly becoming a political and economical thing. We are dealing
with this in the same old way we have dealt with every other problem. I am tired of being handcuffed by the uncertainty
of the scientists and those who have a radical dreams and beliefs that haven't thought out what the far-reaching effects
of their agendas will do to the average and poor souls that they are trying to help. The elites are still controlling
our future. It is hard for me to support those who make profit while our earth is suffering and I have to pay more for
oil, food, and have to see the seasons convulse. It is hard for me to accept that I can buy a car that is good for the
world that costs half as much as the value of my house, or the cost of my daughter's college education. Something is
screwy. And I know, I sound screwy. Sorry. Just throwing out some thoughts that I should have thought more about before
speaking.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

This is a really good point, BTB. The article seems a bit slanted, but you're right. We deserve to see all sides of the issue. Believe it or not, I have a Master's degree in Environmental History. The Earth has warmed and cooled in a fairly rhythmic pattern (the Milankovich theory) over it's lifetime. Oddly, it appears that there is a greenhouse effect immediately preceeding each ice age. We are now in one of the longest periods without an ice age ever seen. Could we be at glacial maximum in 100 years? Maybe. Is there such a thing as global warming? Yes. Did we cause it? Possibly. Will it mean the end of the human race? I doubt it. Will it cause drastic changes to out way of life and our civilization? Yup, but our civilization will change, anyway. There are few clear answers out there as it is a very complex phenomenon. Global warming really just means an increase of the mean annual temperature by, say, 4 degrees, so some places may see no change at all while other places become uninhabitable. One of the main effects will be changes in moisture, as water becomes locked up in ice caps or released from same, changing the salinity of the ocean, expansion of deserts or even rainforests. As the earth heats, more water will become absorbed into the atmosphere which will reflect energy from the sun which will cause the Earth to cool. There are many, many schools of thought out there. You can worry about it if you want to, but I choose to concentrate on trying to be a good person and deciding what's for lunch.

Makes for good cocktail party conversation, too.

the spike in global warming has NEVER been as high as quickly as it has over the last 50 years.
to say that the destruction of vast forrests and the burning of fossil fuels that had lead to the increase in CO-2 in the atmosphere has NO effect on the climate is crazy. Of course it has an effect. Can the earth correct itself? sure. But it may or may not correct itself with people on the planet.

When the earth was at its hottest and coolest, there weren't a whole lot of people around to experience it.

Global warming is a fact. The earth is warming. It may not be permanent, but global warming, for whatever reason, is a fact.

Tom Sowell is an elderly retainer of the Hoover Institute and as such is not to be relied upon as a source of accurate or unbiased information.

Yes, there were a number of articles in the 70s and 80s about a coming ice age for the east coast of the United States and western Europe. The responsible writers pointed out that an ice age had to be preceeded by a global warming and that melting of the ice sheet covering Greenland would cause the Gulf Stream to either stop flowing or change its course - thus depriving the east coast and Europe of its warming effect.

Also, it is uncontrovertable fact that Co2 levels in the atmosphere have increased greatly in the past 150 years, and that the Co2 is one of the gasses that tend to trap heat at the earth's surface. It is also true that human activity contributes greatly to the amount of Co2 in the atmosphere, and that there are steps we could take to reduce our contribution of Co2 to the atmosphere.

There is no doubt that the current global warming is, in part only, due to human activity, and that other forces beyond out control are contributing to the warming.
It does not follow that we should deny the facts and do nothing in the face of this phenomena.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by seafarer john


It does not follow that we should deny the facts and do nothing in the face of this phenomena.

Cheers, John

john, you said it better than I. IMO, it's reckless to not do anything in face of global warming.
cheers.

Global warming may be happening but humans will do nothing to change it, only push it farther along. China is ramping up so quickly it is astounding. Exotic metals and even garden variety stainless steel are going to China like it was some kind of a black hole.

When these factories come on line they will need power, coal mining will increase, pollution will increase while Joan and Jesse in America get a hybrid car. Americans usually miss key ideas in a world context. We have it and they want it. Most Americans are overweight and most of the rest of the world is starving.

I will step off the soap box and make a phone call.

How did the earth come out of (at least) six ice ages when mankind was not around? The earth heats and cools throughout time. All the enviro-whackos want to do is bring capitalism down by blaming global warming on mankind. But even more specifically, they blame the US. Where was the clamor to get China and India to sign the Kyoto treaty? Nowhere to be found - it was all directed toward the US.
Cheers.

I'll excuse my friend Oneiron for his denial of global warming because I know he's got his eye on a really good golf pro job in Greenland.

Cheers, John

Sure is hard to sort out what the true facts are in this area. But rest well tonight, we have such noted authorities as Leonardo DiCaprio out there to set us all straight.

There's a cute article about a Penn Professor who voted for Gore for President and said he would probably vote for Gore again (believe it or not), but regarding his documentary the professor said: "The glossy production is replete with inaccuracies and misrepresentations, and appeals to public fear as shamelessly as any other political statement that hopes to unite the public behind a particular ideology . . . . What he's doing is no less than the scare tactics used by people like Karl Rove." Among his many criticism of Gore's presentation was his shameful showing on the Oprah show of "an animated clip of a polar bear swimming desperately to a tiny ice floe that isn’t strong enough to hold him. Global warming is drowning helpless bears. Oprah thinks it’s the saddest thing in Gore’s whole movie." To which the professor shouts “We don’t know that. We don’t know that! We don’t know that polar bears haven’t drowned like that in every interglacial period since the beginning of time. Nobody was watching them back then.” The article is at http://phillymag.com/articles/science_al_gore_is_a_greenhouse_gasbag

P.S. Poor polar bears. I don't want them to drown.

Sure gotta feel sorry for the gal who lost some digits to frost bite protesting global warming....

"The expedition, which was intended to be a 530 mile (853 kilometers) trek across the Arctic Ocean and meant to bring attention to global warming, was called off March 10 after Arnesen suffered frostbite in three of her toes."


BTW, Fieldthistle's observations are (IMO) the most sensible statements thus far...

quote:

Originally posted by seafarer john

Tom Sowell is an elderly retainer of the Hoover Institute and as such is not to be relied upon as a source of accurate or unbiased information.

And Al Gore is to be relied upon as a source of accurate or unbiased information?

The debate is over. Global warming is real, and humans are the culprits. Kill yourself now, and help save the planet!

Some passing thoughts:

1) Thomas Sowell is a brilliant man.

2) We are definitely going through some kind of warming. I know this because when I grew up in Springfield, MO, the small area lakes would freeze over, allowing ice skating. That doesn't happen anymore.

3) The earth has undergone many periods of warming and cooling. Like EVERYTHING, it goes in cycles. If someone can name the brand of SUV that caused the last ice-age to end, then I'll listen to the "man is causing it" BS.

4) CO2 is great for plants. They inhale it, then exhale oxygen. Just the opposite of us. It's almost like someone planned it that way!! (G-d, perhaps??)

5) Science has shown that with increases in carbon dioxide, plants actually increase in size and their ability to process it.

6) Science is also showing us that the sun is currently increasing in heat output. Thus, Mars is also experiencing (according to science) melting of ice caps. I wonder what brand of SUV is causing that??

7) The Kyoto treaty would exempt China, currently the biggest polluting nation on the planet.

8) The UN is proposing as a solution a global tax. I fail to see how confiscation of money from the "west" will cool the earth. (Even though, as we all know, the UN has a GREAT reputation for honesty and handling of money. )

9) Polar bears can swim a LOT of miles. The latest hoax about polar bears is a picture fraudulently offered as a couple "stranded" on an iceberg, never to be seen again. That picture was taken in 2004, and it depicts a couple of polar bears on the tip of an ice outcrop. If you look at that picture, those fuzzy bears don't look as much desperate as they do p*ssed, probably because they didn't find any seals to eat.

10) Despite denials of reality, the same "groups" who are telling us that unless we make drastic changes the earth is going to burn up were the same groups telling us 30 years ago that we were all going to become ice cubes.

11) Anyone who believes in this "carbon offset" crap is an imbecile. Al Gore owns a company that takes money from these imbeciles and tells them they are "carbon neutral". (I hear Bushie also started one of these companies, but I'm still skeptical...)

12) Algore is clearly insane. You can see it in his eyes. If you still have doubts, then just listen to him speak.

Friends,
I REALLY wanna jump in on this topic, but decided I'm too tired, it's getting late and would not do my opinion justice tonight. As a native Tennessean, let's just say I'm not a fan of Al Gore.
Yours truly,
Dean

I agree with almost everything Bushie said, except #12.

#2 it's not just your lakes that aren't freezing thats a problem, the mass melting of artic ice caps is a problem. My friend saw it first hand while working aboard an Alaskan cruise line.
#3 when you take a dump on my front lawn, you don't say "hey man - animals were pooping on your property long before you moved there and you son't see that poop around anymore" and then refuse to clean up your poop.
#4 - the problem is we are cutting down more trees than we are planting and our population is growing. Nature is not keeping up. Whether you want to believe that CO-2 is the culprit or not for global warming, you cannot deny that the CO-2 levels are abnormally higher than 50 years ago.
#5 poison ivy is one plant an particular that thrives on CO-2 rich atmospere. It also produces higher toxicity. What they didn't study was whether certain animals who's diets consist of the poisonous berries but are not affected by the regular amounts of poison, would be ill-affected by the increase in toxicity.

#5 continue. The [lants most affected by the study was ivy plants, which could grow very fast and could change the dynamic of a forrest with their rapid growth.

#6 Scientists are not sure how long the increase in the solar output has been going. The small amount would need to have been going on for a century to have any effect on our climate. There is some suggestion that it has been . However, the study also states: 'That does not mean industrial pollution has not been a significant factor [in global warming], Willson cautioned."


#7 China is a huge problem. but that doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in defeat.

#8 I too distrust the UN

#9 agree on the polar bear thing.

#10 global warming has been discussed for a long time. The rise in temperature has been noted since 1880. Not sure what crack pot you were listening to 30 years ago, because 30 years ago, scientists were aware that our climate had warmed up. There's the theory that a dramatic cool down could take place after a dramatic warm up. That theory exists today as it did then.


#11 gas house effect due to increased levels in CO-2 is happening. Even the people who talk about the increased solar output admit to that.

#12 my main beef with Al Gore, is that, like the internet, he thinks he's the finder of this science. Well, he gives credit to his college professor, but he's the one who has carried on the work (in his mind)

quote:

Originally posted by seafarer john

I'll excuse my friend Oneiron for his denial of global warming because I know he's got his eye on a really good golf pro job in Greenland.

Cheers, John

Since John thinks Greenland is going to be the next "Bahamas," I'll be looking for the golf course there. Fore!

quote:

Originally posted by Pwingsx

I agree with almost everything Bushie said, except #12.

I agree with almost everything Bushie said, except #12. Yeah, he's freakin' nuts!

I'm sorry about that last statement...after all, Algore invented the internet.

searfarer john, I know you were sincere, but when you discredited that gentleman from the Hoover Institute mentioned above in part because he was "elderly," it kind of hit a soft spot. In days gone by, the elderly were considered the "wise men of the tribe." I'm am a (somewhat) elderly, old retired coot myself who probably spends too much time reading all this crap on the subject, but it's hard to know who's right and who's wrong on this global warming stuff. I seem to note, tho, that more and more scientists are coming out of the woodwork criticizing the basis for the "fear mongering" over it.

One of them is fellow by the name of Dr. Timothy Bell (Chairman of the Canadian Natural Resources Stewardship Project, a Canadian-based environmental consultant, and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg). The good doctor is probably elderly, too, but please don't hold that against him. And he doesn't seem to parallel your thoughts on CO2, but what do Canadians know. From Canadafreepress.com, he has been quoted as follows: “ . . . Global Warming is not due to human contribution of CO2. This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear . . ."

Wow, that kind of strikes you in the face . . . global warming is NOT due to human contribution of CO2. Does this man go to church? Hang him by his petards! Oh, . . . . he is the first Canadian Ph.D in Climatology educated at the University of London. Well, I have 98 point something degrees myself. Furthermore, this heathen says " . . . Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn’t exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth . . .”
To read more of the doctor's thoughts, read this at http://nottakingsides.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/global-warming/ . I think I'll have that scotch now. --BTB

quote:

Originally posted by Oneiron339

quote:

Originally posted by Pwingsx

I agree with almost everything Bushie said, except #12.

I agree with almost everything Bushie said, except #12. Yeah, he's freakin' nuts!

Could be worse...he could have won. Better a c student than a nuts a student.

Come on now, let's show a little respect for the man who singlehandledly invented the internet.

Basically, the debate (both here on Roadfood and in the media)is primarily political, not science. This happens whenever a scientific issue becomes debated in the public. Science is SUPPOSED to be about the objective and but there are always different ways to perceive what is seen. In science, there are ALWAYS some professors somewhere who will disagree with mainstream. Sometimes they are crazy and sometimes they are right and everybody else is wrong. So you can always find professors to support your opinion.

To really make a judgement on global warming, you have to know the data in the ORIGINAL source- not what someone else tells you. (I admit I don't know the data about the cause of global warming to saw if people are doing it or not.)

I do know it seems to be getting warmer and people are noticing definite changes in the environment. People want an explaination for what they are seeing. Those who are concerned about the environment , take it as worrisome. Those who more concerned with other things, like making money, will deny it, even when and if the evidence is overwhelming. Again, the debate here is about what is important to people- not what is really going on.

If you want an truly informed opinion, you have to do the research yourself. (Watching an Al Gore documentary is not research.)

As far as I can tell, no one here has quoted Al Gore as the reliable source.

I didn't mean that people here thought Al Gore was the definitive source. I just meant a lot of people will see that movie and base their entire opinion on it. People at roadfood are smarter than that!

Jeez, I just meant that I don't think algore is clinically insane.

The Onion recently reported that Al was seen boosting the greenhouse effect in order to support his movie. I believe what The Onion tells me.

BTB: I'll be 80 in November and I know an elderly willfull ignoramus when Isee one.

Cheers, john