Ham Sandwich Now a Hate Crime?

This is obviously a hot topic, and interesting, but please keep liberal/conservative insults and personal attacks out of the discussion. I don't want to dump the whole topic, but that is where it is headed.

I,m going to put two soapboxes, no make that three, on top of each other for this post.

I am Ex-Navy, mostly Irish by blood, worked as a stable boy for many years and my family comes from NYC. I can cuss to the point wallpaper will peel, I simply choose not to do so. For this post I will let it go a little bit to make a point.

Labels are used to make another person feel inferior, this is wrong. I had a major run-in w/ my FIL many years ago when I told him that if he used the word nigger anymore in front of children he would not see them any longer. "My house and I'll say what I want". "My kids and they won't hear that word"! Never used nigger in front of them anymore, however he went out of his way to overuse it in front of me.

He was an ignorant, bigoted redneck (not the Foxworthy good kind) that would have made a great Jerry Springer guest. Someone once used the term kike at a Christmas party and he had to have it explained to him that was the same as a Jew boy. WOP, greaser, wetback, mick and faggot are just ways for the ignorant among us to try and make other people feel they are less than others.

The only two label terms I do not object to are yankee and Honorable Southern Gentleman. It was the War of Northern Agression after all.

I will now go back to my restrained "voice" and proceed. Children are tried as such because they have not developed enough to understand the world. I have been in court when a young person stated he did not think shooting someone was bad because it happened all the time on TV (an idiotic concept by any measure but another child was six feet under due to it). Their reality is not yet formed fully. We except or excuse to some degree the mentally defective and should do the same for the not yet fully mentally developed...ie children.

I was wrong to associate the disaster in Modadishu w/ this situation but in my heart I cannot. I really blame that disaster on President Clinton and his staff who refused to allow full military support of our troops. PUFF and M1A1 tanks would have helped a bit in the battle but the Whitehouse wanted a limited response.

BTW to the other poster...we pay each day for the slaughter of the native Americans. We are killing the Cherokee and many other tribes I am sure every day w/ "kindness". My Mother lived on the reservation in Cherokee so my evidence is anedotal. Slavery is another issue along the same lines.

Hello All,
An interesting thread that stirs the pot up and allows everyone to throw something into the stew.
I believe Scorereader's take on crime vs. hate crime is right on target in my gut. But I think
the reasoning to label some things as "hate crime" is an effort to create an even greater stigma
or disgrace when the motives of the criminal are based on racial, religious, or cultural reasons solely.
The results of a crime are equal, but the motives may not be. Motives are important in determining
how society or authority reacts to or punishes the actions of others. Our reaction also gives us and
our society an identity of our beliefs, morals, and what we will tolerate. It demands an answer to the
question of, "Who are we REALLY?"
On this particular case, I think to call it a legal crime is silly. But it was a moral crime if the
facts come out that they knew muslims consider pork unclean. The shame of their actions should be the
first step in their punishment. Other steps need to follow.
As far as the use of language as a weapon, allow me to relay a few personal experiences.
I was born in Virginia in 1955. I never heard the words kike, dago, or wop, and many other words until
I watched "All in the Family." Being in Virginia, I often heard the word, nigger, amongst whites, but
the term, coloured or Negro, was used in their presence. I thought a kike was an Irishman when I first
heard it, and didn't have a clue what dago or wop meant. I am serious.
My family never used the term, Nigger, until the racial unrest in the sixties, and then it was in
reaction to the many riots in Detroit, L.A. etc., when they saw the national guard or cops dealing with
the turmoil on T.V.. I didn't know them when they used that word. They were afraid, angry, and just
didn't understand why these things were happening. This fear, anger and confusion had separated them from
their God.
Luckily, Pop worked for Merck and they hired a black fellow. He discovered this man was like him by working
beside him.
When my wife and I had our first child, we told both sets of parents that if they used the n-word in front of
our children, they would never see our children again. My wife was born and raised in New York, and they had
many other words that we forbid. They never use those words around us. Our ultimatum may sound harsh, arrogant,
and like liberal dictators, but I don't believe in building fences out of words. We hide our hearts behind those
fences. We hide in fear and anger, and nothing changes. I didn't and don't want that world for myself or my
children.
I'm sorry I've went on so long.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle
P.S. if it gets too nasty, please lock it, but don't delete it.
There are some good perspectives and people giving and listening.

Race and relegion are such difficult things. I remember many years ago (1960's) my Father coming home very early on a Friday and pouring a stiff Scotch. This was VERY unusual and my Mother and I tried to be fade away. After his second stiff one he called me to his study and told me that in later years when I had the company such things he had done that day could be avoided.

He had interviewed a young and very qualified black man as a salesman but had hired a less qualified white man because it was the 1960's in NC. It took over a year for him to get over it. It was the right descision from a business outlook but wrong from a moral standpoint. The black guy would never have sold a thing but my Father was NYC liberal and hated having to turn him away. My Father made numerous phone calls to larger places that could support a black guy and got him a position. Sometimes owning the store sucks.

Hello All,
V960, your Father was a good man in a difficult situation. It was the times. But I really
admire your Father for making sure the man he couldn't hire was hired somewhere else. Our
society has always been and still is in a transition, sometimes in good ways and other times
in bad. There is a tension in our society because we have current reality that often opposes a moral imperative
that we know we should reach out for.
Some of us call each other names or throw ham sandwiches, or do other things worse. That is from
weakness.
A few stand up and just do the right thing.
Most of us want to stand up, but yield to the current reality and hide.
And some yield to the current reality, but stand up and do things behind the scenes to help create
a better world, perhaps after pouring a stiff Scotch. Thank God for Scotch, and a NYC liberal who
didn't turn his back on a young, qualified black man, but instead helped him get a position when
he could have hidden in his current reality.
Despite our illusions, history reveals our warts as well as our beauty marks.
V960, you revealed your father's wart of not hiring the young black man, but you also
proved his honour by his efforts to make sure the young man got another job. Some
may say think it's hypocritical. I don't.
It is a terrible burden and stress to live in one reality while the heart and soul believes in
and seeks another.
But let us have faith and courage that we will continue to grow and become a better society and
better individuals as we mature, discover a wholeness, and dare I say it, a holiness that is not
rigid and righteous, but rich, joyful, and sharing.
We can never be comfortable with ourselves, love ourselves and our families, if we have hatred for
others. That hatred will always disturb the peace, purpose, and desires we seek.
This is a message for all, for us and our enemies, whoever they may be. We can accept these ideas,
but so must those that hate us. Now that is a hard, worthy task.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

Hard to believe............where in the world are you located and what in heck do you sell?

One comment Field made caused me to laugh. To totally change subjects an engineering company completly blew me off on a spec which was garbage. The manager of the office agreeded w/ my idea and PO'd the rest of the office who wanted cut sheets and failure reports on a spec NO ONE would use. The kind of thing where they were askinbg for case studies of situatons no one would consider.

Almost like specing a lead airship...no actually worse, but comical in the result. He laughed and said I have children working for me.

Spec now makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Greymo

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

Hard to believe............where in the world are you located and what in heck do you sell?

North and South Carolina, specialized industrial equipment. Wish it was different but WASP's need only apply (I pray to God this will change before I leave). Got one salesman which qualifies as a dumb ass redneck (in the good Foxworthy style) but has a Masters from Georgia Tech. His English sucks but he is better than me at heat exchangers, I consider that to be a high complement. I'm pretty good w/ heat exchangers.

I'm going to wander even farther. During SERE training I had a black guy in our group. The Chief thought it would be funny to assign the NC white boy to the SC black boy. Turned out well. We kicked butt.

SEA was a strange place. Jake never came back and I came home...as Robin Williams puts it..."He is a damaged person".

I have always had a major problem w/ selling in the south. Blacks, Latinos, Women and those of mixed race can forget selling apples on the corner. I run a business that depends on sales not how good you should be...I endure my Father's pain each day.

keep going V960 I feel in another post or so you'll sure as hell hang yourself..................... lol

quote:

Originally posted by sizz

keep going V960 I feel in another post or so you'll sure as hell hang yourself..................... lol

Point? or just fly by night?

quote:

Originally posted by V960

quote:

Originally posted by Greymo

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

Hard to believe............where in the world are you located and what in heck do you sell?

".

I have always had a major problem w/ selling in the south. Blacks, Latinos, Women and those of mixed race can forget selling apples on the corner. I run a business that depends on sales not how good you should be...I endure my Father's pain each day.

Wow. Nothing personal V960, but that is probably the most depressing statement I have read in some time. Frankly, I have trouble believing it, but the simple fact that YOU believe it is depressing to say the least.

I used to think the term " Yankee" was as ignorant as any other short sighted slang term used to describe a group of people, but if what you say above has any truth at all to it regarding people of the south, it is a label that perhaps I should start wearing with pride.

Human beings are social creatures, and we learn from each other what is and is not appropriate. We tend to go as far as others allow us or encourage us to. The kid in this story was testing the waters, evidenced to me by his friend's approval with "good job". The other kids just reassured each other that those Muslim kids were acceptable targets.

Maybe the same kind of thing could have happened to the "nerds" or the "fat" girls. But people are not murdered for being nerds or for being fat. People do get murdered for their race and religion.

You may feel that this is a harmless prank. But this incident needs to be looked at in context. We are currently "at war" with certain extremist factions of this specific religious group. It is a dangerous time to be a Muslim in America.

In a different context, pouring sugar on someone's head might be considered a prank. But not during the Woolworth counter sit-ins of 1963.

I'm trying to stay out of this, I'm in enough trouble already. Don't feel I have time to take on the ham sandwich war. Gotta vacation trip coming up.
Ole Rouxdog
PS.... Bushie, you have my proxy vote while I'm out of town.
GOD BLESS US ALL (is it OK to say that?)

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

It isn't just the south. And it isn't just work. I just think the North is sneakier about racism.

We had a new family move into our neighborhood a few years ago, and my one busybody neighbor was all over it because she saw a white dad with a black little girl. "It's a mixed marriage", she practically hissed, "A mixed marriage" -- like the Manson family just moved in.

My wife grew up in a very racist household and has no tolerance for intolerance. She replied, sarcastically, "What do you mean mixed? He's a dog, and she's a vacuum cleaner?"

Turned out both mom and dad were white and had adopted the little girl.

There are many neighborhoods in my neck of the woods (Cincinnati, OH and environs), where blacks, hispanics, Asians, whoever dare not live. Because it's a closed society.

Well i think something should be done.To me it's not just the sandwich.First the kid flings a ham sandwich at them,then the next thing is for the kids to get beat up.
Someone may have told the boy about muslims not eating pork in order for him and any buddies to do that.Discipline the kid by maybe suspending him and the buddies for a day or two
and that's it perhasp.
Anyhow,I thought teachers taught kids about other cultures when they taught social studies and geography but i guess I'm wrong. My dad came to school a couple of times for us kids. He brought slides of Okinawa and some other things when he spoke to my elementary school class back in the 1960s.
We lived there at Kadena AFB for several years.
When my brother and sister were studying about North Africa and WW2, he came and spoke to their classes.
My sister was in Junior high at the time. He brought money and other items he had saved from his service during WW2 and spoke about the people and culture there.
I was aware of that fact as well as that Jews don't eat it either.In the movie A Stranger Among Us with Melanie Griffith,she plays a dective investigating a murder in the hassidic jewish community
in NY.They explain to her many of their customs.Much of which we already had heard of from our dad.
Daddy was a kraut(German) from Milwaukee who grew up in a mainly german,czech and polish neighborhood.
The family had both business and social dealings with jews,and my dad and grampa could speak yiddish.I'm sure my grandmother and Uncle Tom could too.In fact,grandma attended the same school as Golda Meir in Milwaukee.
Because my parents were exposed to other culutres and we were military and got overseas,it helped to broaden our awareness of others and their ways.
Many of these people invovled in these hate crimes have never been furthur than a few miles from home so to speak. Which is such a shame.
There is good and evil in every culture.The turks 500 years ago or so invaded Hungary,Romania,etc. I'm sure they raped and killed saome of my mother's ancestors in Hungary,but that doesn't make me hate all muslims.It's time for people to move on and get over it.

Hello All,
HollyDolly, I enjoyed reading your words.
It is time for people to move on...the problem is
we don't know which direction to move on to.
And many have nothing if they get over it. Their
pain, their anger, their revenge is all they have.
I am not agreeing with that mentality, just acknowledging it.
I am a Christian, but just look at how screwed up Christians
are, (not Christ, but how screwed up Christians are.)
I wish we could all embrace respect, peace and love.
We seem to mouth those words on the surface while
using the tools of arrogant power. And when I say, "We," I mean
every country, every group, every person does this in their sphere
of influence and existence.
When I was young, I believe in those words and in a future where
those words had meaning and reality. I believed in and sought to spread
"Flower Power" and "Jesus Power," and I was joyful. Now, I labour to
maintain that love within myself. It is hard to maintain, much less share
or find anyone that wants any richness that is not material.
Madonna was right...Its a Material World.
"This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine," was the beginnings of
a song I was taught in my youth.
Nobody sings that anymore in the spirit it was intended and that gave joy to others to hear.
We have lost the art of listening and reasoning together. We have learnt the art of force.
The same thing happened during the Renaissance Period of human history. Great art and
technology burst forth, but it was also a bloody, stressful, and taxing time on individuals
and society. We may admire that time now, but to live in must have been burdensome and confusing,
and the shifts of power in every aspect of life made one question the worth of the spirituality
that allowed a stable welfare of life that they knew and cherished.
Who Knows?
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

quote:

Originally posted by flyseye

Wow. Nothing personal V960, but that is probably the most depressing statement I have read in some time. Frankly, I have trouble believing it, but the simple fact that YOU believe it is depressing to say the least.

I used to think the term " Yankee" was as ignorant as any other short sighted slang term used to describe a group of people, but if what you say above has any truth at all to it regarding people of the south, it is a label that perhaps I should start wearing with pride.

Yankees are any better? As an independant sales rep for highly techinical equipment I can tell you that you will not see a black, asian or latino peddler in the waiting rooms to see PA's or engineers anywhere in the US. That's not exactly true but close. I've been a national sales manager in a past life and have visited thousands of manufacturing plants. With technical equipment it can ALWAYS be justified in some way to go w/ another vendor. Oh, the Fortune 500 places check off blocks by hiring minorities but small companies cannot afford it. W/ my present company I hire WASP's for peddlers and lesbians for office people.

BTW my Father was a dyed in the wool Yankee...mid-town Manhatten born and raised.

Most people only have to deal w/ race issues from a step away. When your children's food, the morgage and your business depend on sales you cannot afford to hire anything but people who produce. Go to a small to mid size manufacturing facility in Wisconsin...the front office is white as the snow out front.

When I was hired by a Japanese company many years ago I was warned that I would never be a manager. When I left I was VP of the US operation. Times change and I fight for all I can but I also face reality. Blast it...HALF the people I hire as salesmen fail.

Shoot we haven't even touched on the problems women have in industrial sales. Accepted as inside sales but ignored as outside sales persons.

I have ranted enough. Listen to Field, he is much more kind and reasonable than I.

Hello All,
V960, what I know is that you are a good man.
What I know is that you have the joys and stresses of being a business person, and
it is hard.
What I know is that I am poor, and a dreamer. I have my version of stress. I am seeking
a joy.
I hear your voice and listen. I speak mine, and worry about my words. I am sure you
worry about your words. When I say, "worry" I mean that the words are appreciated and
accepted in the spirit and meaning that our hearts intend them to be heard.
I am no more reasonable than you. I am no more kind than you.
The honesty of our realities give light to the problems of our society, and
the honesty shows our good sides and weak sides of ourselves.
V960, I love and cherish your honesty. It is so rare.
And what I know is that you are a growing, giving person, able to and willing
to dream of a better future as you have to deal with your present realities.
You have the power in your realm to do good thing...I merely dream them.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

quote:

Originally posted by jmckee

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Thank you for your kind words. Himself may not spin in his grave quite so quickly due to your kind thoughts.

I have hired both women and black salespersons in the past few years and must confess the south is still not ready for them. It is sad but for less than very well known products they fail.

It isn't just the south. And it isn't just work. I just think the North is sneakier about racism.

We had a new family move into our neighborhood a few years ago, and my one busybody neighbor was all over it because she saw a white dad with a black little girl. "It's a mixed marriage", she practically hissed, "A mixed marriage" -- like the Manson family just moved in.

My wife grew up in a very racist household and has no tolerance for intolerance. She replied, sarcastically, "What do you mean mixed? He's a dog, and she's a vacuum cleaner?"

Turned out both mom and dad were white and had adopted the little girl.

There are many neighborhoods in my neck of the woods (Cincinnati, OH and environs), where blacks, hispanics, Asians, whoever dare not live. Because it's a closed society.

I live in a small town to the west of cincinnati, and it is a very close minded community. If you are not white, then you get looked at with the evil eye.

Up until the late 60's there was a sign posted on a bridge in town that informed that if you are a non white, then you better not be caught in town after dark.

I was doing some research for our local fire department, and until 1999 when I was doing the research, if you are black (not the wording used in the actual ordiance) then you could not be on the fire department. That ordinace was changed quickly.

I am a Lion member for our local town, and we have a annual fair, we are gearing up towards our 100th, and we are putting together a book about the fair history.

In sorting through all the pictures, we came across several photos of the KKK marching in the parade. We are trying to decide whether to use one of the photos, it is a part of the fair and parade, but it is a dark part of our history.

life in a small town

quote:

Originally posted by jmckee

There are many neighborhoods in my neck of the woods (Cincinnati, OH and environs), where blacks, hispanics, Asians, whoever dare not live. Because it's a closed society.

I could point out a multitude of neighborhoods in this country where whites dare not live.

Bigotry is a social ill that is not limited to one particular race. Sadly, it exists in virtually every society throughout the world.

quote:

Originally posted by desertdog

quote:

Originally posted by jmckee

There are many neighborhoods in my neck of the woods (Cincinnati, OH and environs), where blacks, hispanics, Asians, whoever dare not live. Because it's a closed society.

I could point out a multitude of neighborhoods in this country where whites dare not live.

Bigotry is a social ill that is not limited to one particular race. Sadly, it exists in virtually every society throughout the world.

Ah, but which came first? If you're black, and your race has always been a negative in Cincy, how do you ever grow up any other way than not trusting whites?

My mom's best friend was a longtime Cincy cop. He could tell you stories of how he and his pals would, on a slow night, find some blacks to charge with something just so they could then beat them up. Makes your blood run cold. It's a miracle blacks even put up with living here.