Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine

We have been discussing the attributes of Egg Plant Parmesan sandwiches. And what I would like to know is there any difference between a Grinder a Hoagie or a Submarine sandwhich. Are these just regional names or is there a real difference? Are there other names for these sandwiches in other parts of the country?

When I was growing up in New Haven, Connecticut they were submarines if they were cold. A hot sub was a grinder. In Bridgeport, Connecticut at the same time, all subs were grinders.

There's a story about how the first "submarine" sandwiches came from Capaldo's Market in New London. The story goes that sailors and workers at the base during World War II were ordering the sandwiches, and because they were working on submarines, and because of the shape of the loaves, the name submarine was applied to them. I have a couple of problems with that story. For one thing, Capaldo's was in Groton where the sub base and the Electric Boat factory are located, not across the Thames River in New London. And second, I was eating those sandwiches before World War II and they were already called submarine sandwiches.

santacruz: there is an old thread that delves into the subject. You'd just have to do a search in the sandwich topic.

Michael: You have just about covered the answer to the question. I'd just add that in the Philly area, hoagies are the same as subs. Grinders are hot. Zeps can be found in Norristown and Pottstown and they have less vegetables (lettuce, tomatoes).

When I was in college, a fraternity brother from Yonkers and his buddies called these sandwiches wedges. I've never heard them called that before or since. Is this terminology limited to NYC, or are they called that other places too?

Actually, I suppose it depended on where you lived in New Haven. We didn't call subs with meatballs or sausage and peppers grinders in my neihborhood. We called them subs.

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Originally posted by Paulie

When I was in college, a fraternity brother from Yonkers and his buddies called these sandwiches wedges. I've never heard them called that before or since. Is this terminology limited to NYC, or are they called that other places too?

I'm from the NYC area originally, never heard of a wedge, and I bet if I took a poll, no one would have any idea what a wedge was. They were always (and still are) called Heros.

I agree with Cheesewit, hoagie and sub are interchangable in the phila/so.jersey area. The story goes something like way back when, when south phila was all shipyards the workers were know as hogs or hoags (reason unknown) the large sandwichs they would carrie for lunch soon came to be known as Hoagies and with the similarity to submarines the sandwich gained a 2nd nickname with the smaller like shaped rolls being called torpedos. A true hoagie like a cheesesteak is next to impossible to find outside its base area (150-200miles from Phila.PA) Like an oyster po'boy or a muffalotta(sp)from New Orleans. Locally (NE, Fl.)a grinder is either turkey or ham, cheese, lettuce, tomato and onion in half a pita

I grew up in Jersey and we always called them subs. I don't care what you call them- I love them!!!

Growing up in Lancaster County Pa. the terms hoagie/subs were used interchangably. Then in the late '70's when I attended college in suburban Philadelphia, almost every restaurant used the term 'Hoagie'. (there was a local place on the edge of campus who would send an employe through our dorm every night with a huge sack of various kinds of Hoagies for sale. He would announce his appearance on each floor by yelling "hoagie man, hot hoagies, get your hoagies" Inevitably, at the beginning of each school year someone would have to explain to the freshmen from outside the Philadelphia area, what a hoagie was).
I had one friend from Norristown who insisted on calling them Zep's. I think he gave up and succumbed to peer pressure about sophomore year.

Here's the story: There was a shipyard on HOG ISLAND, which is near Philly, and the workers were known as Hoggies. Their sandwiches of cold cuts on Italian loaves also became known as Hoggies. The spelling changed to Hoagies - and that is why the submarine type sandwich in the Philly area is called that.

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Originally posted by dreamzpainter

I agree with Cheesewit, hoagie and sub are interchangable in the phila/so.jersey area. The story goes something like way back when, when south phila was all shipyards the workers were know as hogs or hoags (reason unknown) the large sandwichs they would carrie for lunch soon came to be known as Hoagies and with the similarity to submarines the sandwich gained a 2nd nickname with the smaller like shaped rolls being called torpedos. A true hoagie like a cheesesteak is next to impossible to find outside its base area (150-200miles from Phila.PA) Like an oyster po'boy or a muffalotta(sp)from New Orleans. Locally (NE, Fl.)a grinder is either turkey or ham, cheese, lettuce, tomato and onion in half a pita

Thanks Cheesewit for the explanation of why a hoagie is called a hoagie. I had never given it a thought until you explained it. All names have a root.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

Wedge is the term used in northern Westchester County NY (or at least parts thereof), not New York City. Don't see it much anymore.

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Here's the story: There was a shipyard on HOG ISLAND, which is near Philly, and the workers were known as Hoggies. Their sandwiches of cold cuts on Italian loaves also became known as Hoggies. The spelling changed to Hoagies - and that is why the submarine type sandwich in the Philly area is called that.
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CheezWit's account is the most widely accepted. The navy shipyard employed a lot of 1st and 2nd generation workers of Italian decent, who took their lunches with them, consisting of cold cuts on an Italian bread roll. The sandwhiches were called "hog island specials" or "hoggies". Over time, "hoggies" was corrupted into "hoagies".

Another less popular story is that there were street vendors during the early part of the 20th century, called "hokey pokey" men, who sold sandwiches made of Italian style cold cuts on Italian rolls. Over time, the sandwiches sold by these hokey pokey men became known as "hoagies".

Where I grew up in Indianapolis I only knew them as submarine sandwiches. I always thought they were called that because they resembled a submarine. Here in Minneapolis when you buy a long bun in a grocery they call it a hoagie bun. When you get a sandwich like a walleye sandwich they describe it as served on a hoagie bun to handle the long narrow fish.

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Originally posted by Davydd

Where I grew up in Indianapolis I only knew them as submarine sandwiches. I always thought they were called that because they resembled a submarine. Here in Minneapolis when you buy a long bun in a grocery they call it a hoagie bun. When you get a sandwich like a walleye sandwich they describe it as served on a hoagie bun to handle the long narrow fish.

You ought to try walleye fishing on Lake Erie. We don't get long narrow ones. The ones we catch are long wide ones.

What I meant that any fish is generally longer than wide so a hoagie bun is appropriate. In Minnesota we get true walleye though most actually come from Canada where they are fished commercially except around the lake resort areas. Elsewhere I bet most people are getting European Zander, a close cousin to walleye. This little ugly secret was discovered last year here in Minnesota. I haven't heard if other states have gotten upset with this fact. You would not dare try to pass off Zander as walleye in Minnesota now. The walleye sandwich is ubiquitous to just about every bar/grill and sports bar in Minnesota. Having gone to college in Ohio and married to a Bay Village native on Lake Erie I couldn't say the same for Ohio. I rarely see them on menus outside of Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan.

In Ohio what you will see most often on menus is pickerel. That's what they call walleye in Canada, and Canada is where the walleye sold in Ohio comes from. Walleye is a gamefish in Ohio and cannot be sold or fished commercially.

Walleye is the designated state fish in Minnesota and it goes by that name. The problem with the Pickerel name is the uninitiated shorten it to Pike which is an entirely different species as in the Northern Pike, another popular game fish here in Minnesota. Here, we call it Canadian Walleye if it comes from Canada. I'm still willing to bet you are getting Zander if your fish is imported from out of state because restaurants are fast and loose with the definition and Zander probably falls under the Pickerel species because in the UK Pike and Zander are the same. Actually you probably could not tell the difference in a taste test.

Back on subject. I notice more and more the word "submarine"{ is seldom used but the name "Subs" is. Quiznos for one uses the subs term.

Here is what I call "Theedgewich"...Note I put the onions, pickles, lettuce between slices of meat and cheese rather than on top, this holds everything in place. I was thinking, do places ever serve dip with chips? I would if I owned a shop. Mine is just cream cheese, sour cream a squirt of catsup and french onion soup mix.

We always called 'em wedges in Northern Westchester Co., NY where I grew up. Later I moved down to the Port Chester area and they were still called wedges but if you walked over the short bridge spanning the Byram River into Connecticut they mysteriously transformed to grinders. No functional difference (bread, filling or otherwise) between the two.

I recall them being referred to as wedges at SUNY Stony Brook on Long Island when I was there 20 years ago, but that might be my memory playing tricks on me. I do know I was bored a few years ago and did a Google search on "Chicken Parmagiana Wedge" to get a handle on the extent of the term's use. I remember getting hits back from Long Island, the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens and Upstate NY as far as the Poughkeepsie area. I don't remember if there were any hits from New Jersey or Rockland County. There was a hit from a pizzeria in the Buffalo area, but they were positioning themselves as a "Bronx-style" pizza joint so it looks like they were using the term to be less Buffalonian and more Bronxy.

If people tell you that a different bread is used for a wedge versus a sub it's only because the bread is just better in the NY area -- more Italian-style; more body and with a crust with a bit of a "tooth," not squishy with a pale crust like it they make it in the heartland (yuck!) Even if the only bread available in Westchester was the spongy rolls that pass for bread here in Eastern Fairfield County, CT, the sandwiches there would still be called wedges.

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Originally posted by caratzas

We always called 'em wedges in Northern Westchester Co., NY where I grew up. Later I moved down to the Port Chester area and they were still called wedges but if you walked over the short bridge spanning the Byram River into Connecticut they mysteriously transformed to grinders. No functional difference (bread, filling or otherwise) between the two.

I recall them being referred to as wedges at SUNY Stony Brook on Long Island when I was there 20 years ago, but that might be my memory playing tricks on me. I do know I was bored a few years ago and did a Google search on "Chicken Parmagiana Wedge" to get a handle on the extent of the term's use. I remember getting hits back from Long Island, the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens and Upstate NY as far as the Poughkeepsie area. I don't remember if there were any hits from New Jersey or Rockland County. There was a hit from a pizzeria in the Buffalo area, but they were positioning themselves as a "Bronx-style" pizza joint so it looks like they were using the term to be less Buffalonian and more Bronxy.

If people tell you that a different bread is used for a wedge versus a sub it's only because the bread is just better in the NY area -- more Italian-style; more body and with a crust with a bit of a "tooth," not squishy with a pale crust like it they make it in the heartland (yuck!) Even if the only bread available in Westchester was the spongy rolls that pass for bread here in Eastern Fairfield County, CT, the sandwiches there would still be called wedges.

I went to SUNY Stony Brook 20 years ago. There and everywhere else on Long Island they were called "Heros" Never heard of a wedge until I got into the Road Food thing 15 years ago.

The Hog Island shipyards had their heyday during WW1. The US government ,in order to provide more shipping contracted for a simple inexpensive design of cargo ship which became known as a "Hog Islander" . I dont know how many were ever built, but I was a crewmember on one of the few that survived WW2, in about 1950. It was "Del Norte" (launched 1919) operated by South Atlantic Shipping. We loaded sugar in Caibarrien (sp?) Cuba and discharged our cargo at the Jack Frost plant in Yonkers, NY. I think she was laid up and scrapped shortly after that trip.

Growing up in Poughkeepsie (1930-40s) I never heard of wedges, hoagies, subs, torpedos, grinders, heroes or any other name for a coldcut sandwich on crusty Italian bread. I was first introduced to Grinders in the Madison CT area in about 1944- it was love at first sight. After that it was possible to go to Daleo's Deli in Poughkeepsie and get an "Italian Sandwich" which was very much like the Connecticut grinder - I think they had been making them forever in the Italian neighborhood of Poughkeepsie, but the rest of us didn't know about it. As far as I can recall the sandwich had no name - it was merely "Italian".

By the late 50s, if memory serves, something called a "wedge" was appearing - it was a roughly triangular or trapezoid shaped section of a Hot Meatball or Hot Sausage sandwich. I always thought the term differentiated between a whole hot meatball sandwich and a portion of the sandwich.

To this day, for me, a "Grinder" or a "Sub" or a "Hero" is made with cold cuts, while anything else is a "Hot sandwich". Sometimes I'll walk into a place and order a "Hot Meatball Sandwich" and the waitperson will say, "You want a "Hot Sub", and I'll say, "No, I want a Hot Meatball". It is about then that I realize I'm going to get my meatballs on a soggy roll, not the crusty bread that stands up to the red sauce. And, I hate it that i have to specify "oil and vinegar" - NO MAYONNAISE- whereever I go.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

Walleye is the designated state fish in Minnesota and it goes by that name. The problem with the Pickerel name is the uninitiated shorten it to Pike which is an entirely different species as in the Northern Pike, another popular game fish here in Minnesota. Here, we call it Canadian Walleye if it comes from Canada. I'm still willing to bet you are getting Zander if your fish is imported from out of state because restaurants are fast and loose with the definition and Zander probably falls under the Pickerel species because in the UK Pike and Zander are the same. Actually you probably could not tell the difference in a taste test.

Actually, walleye is commonly, and incorrectly, referrred to as walleyed pike or walleye pike over much of the country, especially in the northeast. The various pickerel species are, in fact, related to the Northern pike as they are members of the Esox family, as is the muskellunge.

By the way, when it comes to being able to tell the difference between walleye and zander I can, indeed, tell the difference in taste, and I've made some pretty good money over the years proving it.

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I went to SUNY Stony Brook 20 years ago. There and everywhere else on Long Island they were called "Heros" Never heard of a wedge until I got into the Road Food thing 15 years ago.

Then it's me being prematurely senile. There was certainly no shortage of Westchesterites in Kelly E at the time so it's possible we used the term among ourselves and translated to Long Island-ese when we ordered out. A quick survey of LI Pizzeria menus on line failed to turn up the term "wedge" for sandwiches so that adds weight to the faulty memory theory.

I did a Google search on "meatball wedge" today to see if the term's extent has spread or shrunk since the last time I looked into it a couple of years ago. I only went about 10 pages in so this research is by no means comprehensive.

Overall, use of the term "wedge" seems to be limited primarily to Westchester, Putnam and Dutchess Counties upstate as well as the Bronx and Manhattan. A web page welcoming The Onion's staff relocating to Manhattan mentions the term: http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/netslaves/comments/980260490.shtml There appears to be limited use in Orange County, NY, too -- I wonder if that has anything to do with that area's continuing influx of downstate natives. This tentative finding doesn't seem too far off from the consensus reached by the illustrious readership of fark.com (they seem to think it's a Westchester-only term, but Farkers seem to be generally younger and therefore possibly not be as worldly as we cosmopolitan Roadfooders ): http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=460259

Some interesting findings (well, if you're into that sort of thing, anyway):

1) There's a place in State College, PA (The Gingerbread Man) that sells something they call "wedges," but they're sandwich fillings baked in a shell ala calzones/strombolis as opposed a hero-style sandwich. That's a first encounter with that use of the term for me -- I wonder what the story is there: http://gmanstatecollege.com/menu/wedges.asp

2) One of my local places, Vazzy's in Stratford CT, sells "wedges" but not the far-more-typical-for-this-area "grinders." Very unusual and unexpected. Also Manero's in Greenwich, Vinny's in Stamford and a couple of places in Norwalk sell "wedges" but they're on the other side of Bridgeport and therefore spiritually closer to NY.

3) When I was growing up in Northern Westchester, the term wasn't limited to hot sandwiches and that appears to still be the case there: (http://www.ginoscarousel.com/lunch.htm); however, my quick survey seems to indicate the use of the term "wedge" outside the NY area is limited to Italian deli-style hot subs, (e.g., chicken parm, meatballs, sausage & peppers, etc.) and mostly used by places portraying themselves as "NY-Style" pizza joints. For example:

• Richie B.'s in Portland, OR sells "meatball wedges" but their cold combo sandwich is called an "Italian Sub." http://www.wweek.com/html/dish042600.html They position themselves as a NY-and-Philadelphia-style pizzeria/cheesesteak place.


• Giuseppe's Italian Dining in Marlow, OK also sells (sold?) hot "wedges" but cold "submarines" (original link is dead -- link to Google cache: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:AkZlPAjEXDoJ:giuseppesitaliandining.onsmartpages.com/menu1/+NYC+%22meatball+wedge%22&hl=en&start=21) The ownership team (husband and wife?) included a New York native: http://www.55-57chevys.com/coccc/dash137.html


• Casa Maya in Norwalk, CT is a Mexican-style deli that seems to sell "wedges" (not 100% sure as I got this from a published review and the term "wedge" might be the reviewer's.) Their "Jackie Gleason" wedge is an Italian-style meatball sandwich with sauteed peppers (a twist there) that seems to have little to do with traditional Mexican fare.http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/gbase/Dining/content.html?oid=oid:112946

4) School Menus -- a lot of them are on line and seem to be a good source for regional food terms. I only two school menus using the term "wedge" west of the Hudson (Highland Falls, Wallkill) and nothing further north than Dutchess County. This may be a bad time of the year to be looking for school menu references, though, as schools are on summer recess. Also the fact that a "wedge" tends to be a big sandwich might mean it's less likely to show up on menus for kids. Lots of schools all over the country list a "Pizza Wedge" on their menu but it appears to be another term for what New Yorkers refer to as a "slice."

5) The term may be falling out of favor in the city -- I didn't see as many NYC references as I recall a few years ago when I last looked into this. Perhaps this has something to do with the continuing influx of non-Italians and non-Greeks into the NY Pizza business (Albanians come to mind as the biggest newer ethnic group getting into NY Pizza these days but there may be others.)

I grew up in the Bronx and we called them wedges and heros. But when I went to school upstate, nobody knew what i was talking about when i refered to my favorite thing to eat as a wedge.

Looks like the sandwich name WEDGE does indeed exist, since people vouch for it. Sounds like the results of the poll are in, so deal with it.

Indeed.
I hail from northern Westchester, and wedges are what we called subs. I recall the term in use as far south as Yonkers and as far north as Patterson and Carmel, in Putnam county.
I don't recall what they were called just over the CT. line in Ridgefield, as I always had pizza there (Roma on Main St, Venice in the Copps Hill shopping center).
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Growing up in NYC I never heard the term "wedge" used as a long sandwich. In the city they were and still are called heroes. From delis to bodegas they are always advertised as heroes. The term WEDGE is not NYC. Maybe upstate in Westchester and New England but not the 5 boroughs.