How much should a foodworker make?

My liberal oldest daughter has become a little more conservative after a few years in the workforce, but she is still sure that our restaurants employ labor tactics that are not allowed in other parts of out economy. She has never been a full time restaurant worker, but through college, and now during her career she did and does part time work for various eating establishments, from basic stalls to white table cloth eateries. She feels that the pay for people in the back end is too low to get the right people. To be sure, there are good people working their way up to better jobs by "paying dues". There are also the dregs of society doing cleaning or prep work 60 hours a week at a starvation wage, part of which they get cheated out of. She says that the little places (ie the "Roadfood" places that we talk about here)often have the cleanest kitchens, and the best workers. What do you think?

My oldest son is in college and works part-time at Bennigan's as a server. He is paid $2.15 an hour plus his tips. On an average weeknight shift (4-10 or so) he makes anywhere from 20-50 bucks on average. There are a lot of people out there who do not tip, or do not understand how little the servers are paid.

Bennigans is a lot better than the family-run Mexican place he started at. He has since found out that the practice of making the employees pay for any food mistakes out of their own pockets is illegal.

At Bennigans, they are allowed to have soup or any appetizers during a break in their shift. At Melys they were charged a quarter for a tortilla!

Lone Star, that is the sad part, she isn't even talking about the servers!! That is the job that a lot of the dishwashers hope to work up to. The servers are out front, and in a good restaurant they need to be both attractive and competent. As long as the customer is not a total jerk, as some of your son's customers seem to be, a server can make a decent pay at the right place. Servers, though, can often be jerks themselves when it comes to passing some tips on to buspeople and dishwashers.

The Sundancer's opinion is that everybody starts at the bottom and works their way up. I do not personally know Lleechef but in my opinion this lady has worked her way to the position she is now in. She did not get there instantaneous. I am sure she served several positions in the interim. This is the way it is in the business world. You work, your prove your stuff and you improve.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

I will have to ask him how much they "back" people are paid. My son applied at an upscale seafood place and was told he would have to start out there as a bus boy. He declined as he considered that to be "beneath him"

At the Mexican place he worked, the cooks only spoke Spanish.

Unfortunately, some workers do not have the speaking skills required to be "out front" with the customers which is necessary for service.

That's the way it SHOULD work, but it doesn't many times, Paul. I have 2 kids that work as waiters in the food world, fortunately they work at good places and make decent $$. But, one of the unfairnesses of our world is people who do not tip properly. There's not much you can do about them, but in a sense, they are the ones who make "the system" difficult.

The Sundancer is not or has never been a waitperson. If I was, here is what I would do. I would give great service to each person I had. I would give them the best service I was able to give and I would expect the maximum tip available. If it was not delivered, I would hang it up to what ever is what ever. That is the way the mop flops.

Most of the time if you give great service, great communication and just trying to please, the customer will reward. Sometimes they don't. If they do not, I would just hang it up and go with the odds.

I am not in the wait business but if I was, I would rely on my own intropersonal skills of generating quality sales and good business. That should generate tips of enormous quanity.

The Sundancer met a young lady with great communication skills who indicated that she made $300-$600 nightly waiting tables at a restaurant near me. That is not great big money but not bad.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

quote:

Originally posted by carlton pierre

That's the way it SHOULD work, but it doesn't many times, Paul. I have 2 kids that work as waiters in the food world, fortunately they work at good places and make decent $$. But, one of the unfairnesses of our world is people who do not tip properly. There's not much you can do about them, but in a sense, they are the ones who make "the system" difficult.

I agree. We have gone out so many times with people who really undertip badly just because they do not want to tip more as they think that the server makes enough from other patrons(lol) and then we have gone out with people who will find fault with service to justify their poor or "no tipping" tactics. I have also observed women who take some of the tip that their husbands have left. Guess they think that they do not get paid for serving him so why should others?

If ALL people in the food industy were paid a real living wage, most of us could not afford to go out and eat as often as we do.......but on a happier note..........I bet all those fast food restaurants would have to close up or charge enough more that they would no longer be attractive dining options.

I worked as a hostess for a short time and then a waitress for almost ten years. The work was very hard and the abuse by customers (don't get me started, don't even get me started!) was even harder. However, I made very good money and always felt bad for the "guys in back" who in my opinion were the best workers and were paid the least amount in wages. They were treated so poorly by the owners/managers as well. They were the most loyal, efficient, and consistent employees. The only people that I ever saw steal from the restaurants were the food servers.

At the last restaurant at which I worked, I used to sub in as a bus boy. I prefered busing to waiting on tables because I didn't have to deal with the customers and I usually made as much as the waiters (maybe they were afraid to stiff me since I was a "peer" - yes, many servers did not "tip out" enough to the bartender/host/bussers.)

Just an aside: the cleanest kitchen that I've ever seen is at The Hat on Lake in Pasadena, CA. I've been there many times during lunch rushes and it just amazes me how clean the floor and counters are. It could be because most of the people who work in the kitchen are women.

quote:

The Sundancer met a young lady with great communication skills who indicated that she made $300-$600 nightly waiting tables at a restaurant near me. That is not great big money but not bad.

I think $300 -$600 a night is great big money for a waiter or waitress! Where do I apply? If you can do that 5 nights a week that is well over 100 grand a year. 6 figures for waiting tables is not bad indeed!

I made that much as a bartender years back, but only two nights a week. The other nights I made MUCH less.

The real interesting work is in the back of the place...the cooking!
I worked in delis and country stores throughout college, always as a cook. It would be pompous to say chef.
And yes, I worked at Mickey D's making minimum wage in high school. I learned a lot of lessons there...and if push comes to shove..."You wanna supersize that?".

"If ALL people in the food industy were paid a real living wage, most of us could not afford to go out and eat as often as we do.......but on a happier note..........I bet all those fast food restaurants would have to close up or charge enough more that they would no longer be attractive dining options..."

And speaking of that (sans wait staff, etc.), I am sure everyone has heard by now of the recent increase in minimum wages (above federal guidelines) in the state of Florida?

I had not heard that FL had raised it's minimum wage. I thought that was a federally mandated thing, but I have heard the argument for decades now that raising the minimum wage will put all the fast food joints and restaurants out of business, yet they continue to pound out and advertise their 99 cent menu.

I say the "right amount" to pay is the amount it takes to get the number and caliber of staff the restaurant owner wants. If the amount paid is "too low to get the right people", the customers won't be happy and the restaurant will either have to pay more or go out of business. If is it too much, the restaurant will have to either lower it or go out of business because it won't be able to make money. This is called "capitalism" and it is our system and it has been working for several hundred years now without the need for either bureaucrats or internet pundits to worry themselves about what the "right" answer is.

Generally speaking, I do agree that roadfood places probably make more pleasant places to work ust because usually the owners are there, on the premises, giving things their full-time attention which includes knowing and caring about the staff. But such non-monetary factors that keep the staff happy could actually allow them to get away with paying a little LESS.

quote:

Originally posted by Lone Star

I will have to ask him how much they "back" people are paid. My son applied at an upscale seafood place and was told he would have to start out there as a bus boy. He declined as he considered that to be "beneath him"

At the Mexican place he worked, the cooks only spoke Spanish.

Unfortunately, some workers do not have the speaking skills required to be "out front" with the customers which is necessary for service.

Interesting. There are two ways to take your last sentence. I'm guessing the "speaking skills" you feel are required to work "out front" are in English, but there are plenty of places where I live (Southern Arizona) where you would not be able to work "out front" if you couldn't speak Spanish because that's the only language of a majority of the customers--and not just in Mexican restaurants but certainly there. I have been retired since living here and have not tried working in my career which is health care, but I doubt I could really do it here without learning Spanish.

Concerning this business of any work being "beneath" someone. I've always considered that an entirely bogus issue. Here, where immigration is such a hot topic, we often hear it said that there are lots of jobs Americans won't do--there are, as your son said, "beneath" us. Well I say "won't do at what wage?" I've got 10 years of higher education, but I'd have to seriously consider one of those $600 a night table-waiting jobs mentioned above. If we didn't have immigrant labor to do these jobs that we think are beneath us, we'd either have to find some other way to get them done or they would have to pay a LOT more, but at some wage there'd be people--Americans--eager to do them.

The $600 a night waitering jobs may exist, but not on any big scale, or I'd say you were a fool to go to school for 10 years, and so would you.

quote:

Originally posted by Sundancer7

The Sundancer's opinion is that everybody starts at the bottom and works their way up. I do not personally know Lleechef but in my opinion this lady has worked her way to the position she is now in. She did not get there instantaneous. I am sure she served several positions in the interim. This is the way it is in the business world. You work, your prove your stuff and you improve.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

Actually I pretty much started out at the top....first job in the US was executive chef and from then (1984) until now I have always been an executive chef. As an executive chef you make a 6-figure salary. You have to remember that you do not run this kitchen/restaurant alone, so you have to pay your employees accordingly. I paid my dishwashers (Brazilians) over $10/hr. and my cooks over $16/hr. My pastry chef made 50K a year plus bonus. My wait staff went home every night with between $400 and $600 a night. If you find good help and you want to keep them, you have to pay them!!!

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Originally posted by lleechef
As an executive chef you make a 6-figure salary.

Not everywhere. In fact, not most places.

The larger problem is that in this day and age it borders on nearly impossible for someone to survive out in the world today making much less than $10 an hour. Most resturants can't possibly afford to be paying dishwasher and busboys and the like $10 an hour. So, it becomes a vicious cycle..They pay what they can afford somewhere from the minimum to $7 an hour range. The talented people can't afford to work very long at that wage and they go. What's left are usually people who you don't really want..but they'll work for the wage that can be paid. So the revolving door goes round and round. I have also heard a most interesting point from someone I know on the waitstaff side. Since so many people now pay their tabs with charge cards or bank debit cards, the tip goes right onto the bill which then makes their tips fully reportable, and so in essence they make less money because they have to declare so much more of what they receive. What say you???

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Bad

The Sundancer met a young lady with great communication skills who indicated that she made $300-$600 nightly waiting tables at a restaurant near me. That is not great big money but not bad.

I think $300 -$600 a night is great big money for a waiter or waitress! Where do I apply? If you can do that 5 nights a week that is well over 100 grand a year. 6 figures for waiting tables is not bad indeed!
[;)I agree with TB that 300-600 a night sounds outstanding to me. As a registered nurse, our pay for a 13 hour night shift doesn't even approach that bottom figure ( and no, nurses do not make as much per hour as those classifieds supposedly "offer"). A number of the women I went to nursing school with 10 years ago kept their student serving jobs at ChiChi's and Red Lobster after they went into nursing just for the money on Friday and Saturday nights. Make no mistake, they admit the work is hard and patrons can be rude, but they have the communication skills to do the job well and their tips reflect it.

A friend who was a topless dancer in Columbus was complaining that she brought home less a night than her friend who waited tables at Don Pablo's, also in Columbus, on a weekend night, roughly $250, but in all fairness, the waiter shared tips with the busboys, and the dancer didn't share with the DJ, the bouncers, or the bargirls....

quote:

Originally posted by RockyB

I have also heard a most interesting point from someone I know on the waitstaff side. Since so many people now pay their tabs with charge cards or bank debit cards, the tip goes right onto the bill which then makes their tips fully reportable, and so in essence they make less money because they have to declare so much more of what they receive. What say you???

Well this was fully discussed in a different thread about tipping, but I think it's worth repeating: I nearly always leave the tip in cash, even when I pay with a credit card, for exactly this reason. I've never known for sure if the wait staff care, but I've always figured I would if I were a waiter.

quote:

Originally posted by BT

quote:

Originally posted by RockyB

I have also heard a most interesting point from someone I know on the waitstaff side. Since so many people now pay their tabs with charge cards or bank debit cards, the tip goes right onto the bill which then makes their tips fully reportable, and so in essence they make less money because they have to declare so much more of what they receive. What say you???

Well this was fully discussed in a different thread about tipping, but I think it's worth repeating: I nearly always leave the tip in cash, even when I pay with a credit card, for exactly this reason. I've never known for sure if the wait staff care, but I've always figured I would if I were a waiter.

I am always concerned that if the servers boss sees no tip on the slip, they'll assume the server did bad and reprimand the server. In the odd, rare cases where I leave a cash tip on a charged meal, I always write "cash" on the tip line.

I dunno, same thing, I have no idea if the server cares, if it matters at all, or what.

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Originally posted by -Tricky-

quote:

Originally posted by lleechef
As an executive chef you make a 6-figure salary.

Not everywhere. In fact, not most places.

After just finishing working 84 hours this past week, I feel I should be making 6 figures. But, alas, I do not and never have been paid that much as an executive chef. Unlike Ileechef, I did start at the bottom and never made $16 an hour as a KM, line cook or lead saute. Ileechef, are you currently hiring? Sign me up.

"One of the unfairnesses of this world" is not that people don't tip properly, but that we have tipping in this country. I have been hosting Australians the past week and they are totally confused on the whole tipping thing. They said that if you left money on the table, your waiter would come running after you to return it, thinking that you had left it by mistake. When I traveled to Iceland, I found out that tipping would be considered demeaning to the recipient. I'm sure there are many more countries like this. We need to eliminate the messy practice of tipping and start paying our customer service people a decent wage. Paying someone $2 an hour and expecting them to make it up in tips is obscene. Plus, the cheap b******s who don't tip are getting a subsidized meal at the expense of the tippers. And yes, I always tip because I know they are making such a wage.

Extreme, while there are a lot of things that we do differently from the rest of the world, i.e. metric sizes for one, I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed in your post.

quote:

Originally posted by carlton pierre

Extreme, while there are a lot of things that we do differently from the rest of the world, i.e. metric sizes for one, I tend to agree with the sentiments expressed in your post.

I can't make up my mind on this one. I think it's clear that our system, like much in American business/commerce, is designed to incentivize the kind of service we want. In other words, a good wait-person will make good money because they will be tipped well, while the sloppy/inattentive wait-person will be tipped badly and find other work--whether or not they ever accept the unsatisfactory nature of their performance. To pay them all the same wage, with no tipping, leaves it up to their employer to recognize bad performance and act on it (by firing the bad performer). My experience in life tells me niether of these systems works perfectly, but the direct approach--tipping (or not)--certainly feels better when I am confronted with bad service. On the other hand, I do realize good wait-persons work hard and sometimes are victimized by unappreciative and boorish patrons. So I'm just not sure either approach is clearly superior.

I really don't care what person's from other countries think about how we do things. Our societies are different. Most other countries take the "levelling" approach on many things we do not from health care to service wages and tipping. It's stupid for Americans in Australia, a country I have visited and respect tremendously, to tip and stupid for Australians visiting here not to. I don't criticize them for confusing a "napkin" with a feminine hygience product when I'm there and I don't appreciate their trying to reform our society when visitng us.

I didn't mean for this to become a discussion about servers, but rather the folks out back. Servers are somewhat in control in that in general, great service yields great tips. There is a great link on the "how much should you tip?" thread to a site that shows the downside of being a server, but servers are in general attractive, smart people who in general have choices. The folks in back, knowingly, unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly can have a great impact on your health. How do I as a customer know that they are properly managed?

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Originally posted by BT

quote:

Originally posted by Lone Star

I will have to ask him how much they "back" people are paid. My son applied at an upscale seafood place and was told he would have to start out there as a bus boy. He declined as he considered that to be "beneath him"

At the Mexican place he worked, the cooks only spoke Spanish.

Unfortunately, some workers do not have the speaking skills required to be "out front" with the customers which is necessary for service.

Interesting. There are two ways to take your last sentence. I'm guessing the "speaking skills" you feel are required to work "out front" are in English, but there are plenty of places where I live (Southern Arizona) where you would not be able to work "out front" if you couldn't speak Spanish because that's the only language of a majority of the customers--and not just in Mexican restaurants but certainly there. I have been retired since living here and have not tried working in my career which is health care, but I doubt I could really do it here without learning Spanish.

Concerning this business of any work being "beneath" someone. I've always considered that an entirely bogus issue. Here, where immigration is such a hot topic, we often hear it said that there are lots of jobs Americans won't do--there are, as your son said, "beneath" us. Well I say "won't do at what wage?" I've got 10 years of higher education, but I'd have to seriously consider one of those $600 a night table-waiting jobs mentioned above. If we didn't have immigrant labor to do these jobs that we think are beneath us, we'd either have to find some other way to get them done or they would have to pay a LOT more, but at some wage there'd be people--Americans--eager to do them.

The speaking skills required for communication in an effective and efficient manner in order to provide food service does not necessarily mean the inability to speak English. However, in Texas and in Arizona we do have a number of undocumented workers who start in the more "menial" jobs until they can assimilate to the language and culture barrier. When I mentioned "speaking skills" I did not just mean being able to speak English. One of my sons class mates works as a sacker at a grocery store. He is a very nice young man of nineteen and I enjoy visiting with him when I go to that particular store. However, his speech and lack of "speaking skills" (for lack of a better term) would limit him should he decide to apply as a wait person. I think that harsh that it is, people can be judged on how they speak.

As for the attitude of "being above" a certain job, I was unhappy with his attitude, but he is 18 and knows everything and nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Lone Star

When I mentioned "speaking skills" I did not just mean being able to speak English. One of my sons class mates works as a sacker at a grocery store. He is a very nice young man of nineteen and I enjoy visiting with him when I go to that particular store. However, his speech and lack of "speaking skills" (for lack of a better term) would limit him should he decide to apply as a wait person. I think that harsh that it is, people can be judged on how they speak.

Well, I guess since he's a "classmate" of your son's, there's hope--he's apparently in school where we can always hope he'll learn something. Unless, of course, he's in school in a place like Oakland (across the Bay from my other place) where the schools repeatedly flirt with "ebonics" (speaking and writing in English as spoken in the streets of "urban" America) as the primary classroom language--but that's another off-topic issue. Let's jess keep hopin he be lurnin sumpin.