Jumping Thru Hoops

hi, i'm new at this but i wanna sell tamales...no i'm not mexican....loll..but i can make a mean tamale....problem is my health dep. is making almost impossable for me to get legal, altho i really wanna be...
i told them that i was going to be getting my tamales out of tex. frozen they would arrive frozen, i would sell frozen, yet give away samples, alot like what sams club does inside....
there saying i can't do that, then says i would have to have 3 sinks plus hot water...no telling what else me and the lady got into it....
i don't mind doing things that make sense but what she was saying made no sense at all. if it did then when i go in sams i wouldn't see those ladies cooking hot plates r micro ovens...
i told the health dep. i wouldn't be touching the food as they would come wrapped in foil, only the person buying the food would touch it....well that did no good....what do u do with people like that?

truth is i will be making my own tamales but when i was talking to her i had planned on buying from tex.
its really hard to stay cool with things that make no sense...
i'm a person that most of the time wants to know why and whats the reason behind it? in a good natured way of course, but this lady well...grrrrr....loll...its like they don't wanna help u they wanna make it harder on you...i'm guessing they rest. r behind some of it...you would think everyone would be equal wouldn't you....ok no i don't....but i can dream....i'm on the mississippi coast home of katrina....i use to sell shrimp years ago and they had tons of rules, but now that the vietnamines, yea i know thats spelled wrong....r here all rules went out the window and they able to just sit up anywhere and sell raw shrimp....
health dept told me that cooked tamales r a worst helth risk the raw seafood....hello? mine r frozen....any ideas? r a few bullets for sell? j/kkkkk kinda sorta....loll...tc billy

Dude - that’s a pretty hostile post under a lot of "lol"s. Chill out, hostility will get you know where.

First - bureaucrats will be bureaucrats, and they will always create a lot of red tape when they can.

Second - most of what you are saying they are tell you to do is standard practice and does make sense.

Prepackaged Frozen or homemade?? - If you are going to make them yourself, then where ever you make them will need to be certified by the health department as well. So now you have two location requiring health certs. And please don't try to skirt the rules, if they catch you, and they will, then its going to cost you a lot of money, maybe worse.

If you are handing out samples for people to taste then you ARE cooking and subject the buyer to potential food borne illness. SAMs and other clubs to have health certs to by the way or they could not do it. Think about it, those stores have deli's and kitchens that are inspected by the health department.

Raw seafood absolutely has risk, but the risk increases when you cook anything because of a number of factors which the end user does not control, things the could control if they cooked the food themselves. Factors which include cross contamination, safe temp levels, meat/vegetables entering and leaving safe temp zones, and so forth and so on. So when you cook it you are taking on the burden to make sure the food is safe, the health department is going to make darn sure you are doing that before they certify you to feed the public.

Sinks and white/grey water tanks are standard as well, although the number and capacity may vary from state to state. Sinks are required for sanitation reasons, keeping a cooking environment clean is critical.

There are a lot of people on this forum more than willing to give you good advice; I'll start with 2 points. First, ease up, there is no need to be hostile towards anyone, who cares if it was Vietnamese or little green men from mars selling illegal seafood, what matters is someone was selling illegal seafood. And your comment about bullets for Pete’s sake?!?!?

Second - be as specific as possible with you questions. The rules do vary from state to state and even from county to county on some things, but the more specific your question the better the answer you receive will be.

Happy Thanksgiving!
DD

The 3 sinkrule is a HD standard. The 3rd is for sanitizer. If you have a comercial dishwasher that meats the HD guidelines then youre ok. We leased a place years ago. The HD made us get rid of our stock pot and huge floor mixer bowl as they were too big ti fit the machine.
For real BS, they closed us 6 months later. It seems the grease trap outside was in the wrong position. It would cost over 10k at 82 bux and put us under(they said it was a critical violaion and closed us during lunch.-with no income we had no chance). They knew about it when we opened but forgot it as the previous owner was exempt under the grandfather clause. They don't care. Most rules make sense and need to be enforced but some are just nitpicky.
Good luck buddy'
britt

oohhh boy can they be nitpicky!! My wifes store has been open for about 10yrs a new inspector measured the space under the cold storage shelves and wrote a violation because the bottom shelf was 7and 7/8" instead of 8"

quote:

Originally posted by dreamzpainter

oohhh boy can they be nitpicky!! My wifes store has been open for about 10yrs a new inspector measured the space under the cold storage shelves and wrote a violation because the bottom shelf was 7and 7/8" instead of 8"

Boy, there would have been one health inspector getting a big ol' asswhoopin' that day, if that had been myplace. If he was gonna give me a violation over something that trivial, I'd have given him something to feel violated about. Ain't no call for foolishness like that.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

Originally posted by dreamzpainter

oohhh boy can they be nitpicky!! My wifes store has been open for about 10yrs a new inspector measured the space under the cold storage shelves and wrote a violation because the bottom shelf was 7and 7/8" instead of 8"

Boy, there would have been one health inspector getting a big ol' asswhoopin' that day, if that had been myplace.

Really? Huh. I guess that's one method to try and accomplish what's needed and to keep the store open.

Get a copy of the regs, go down the list making sure you meet or exceed EACH requirment and ALL the eyes are dotted and tee's crossed. Without any exception. Otherwise, you are wasting time and money.

quote:

Really? Huh. I guess that's one method to try and accomplish what's needed and to keep the store open.

Uh, that was said in jest. I can't beleive anyone would take that statement seriously.

But at the same time, no one that obviously anal-retentive deserves to be in such a position of power. I would seriously do whatever I could to have that person's job. There are ways to fight city hall, you just have to do it in a round-about way.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

Really? Huh. I guess that's one method to try and accomplish what's needed and to keep the store open.

I would seriously do whatever I could to have that person's job.

And you believe that you could get someone fired for being good at his job and doing that job by the book?

You're selling tamale popsicles????
Just follow the dang rules!

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

Really? Huh. I guess that's one method to try and accomplish what's needed and to keep the store open.

Uh, that was said in jest. I can't beleive anyone would take that statement seriously.

I didn't take your words seriously. I can't believe anyone would not feel the dripping sarcasm of what I wrote.

So, you don't want your statements taken seriously? I'm good with that. I guess you really didn't mean that someone, who is just following the regs, should lose his job then, either. Right?

Personally, I'd just spend the 5 minutes it would take me to widen the shelf rather than wasting my valuable time trying to create harm for someone doing their job. I'd thank the inspector for helping me find any weaknesses in my operation and offer him a beverage. I'd try to cultivate a good working relationship. But, hey, that's just me. YMMV (shrug)

Oh, I love tamales! (I spend a whole day before Thanksgiving making a batch. I've tried buying them at the local Mexican places, but they've all been so disappointing. And although my boyfriend is Mexican, he didn't know the recipe, so we ended up calling his relatives in TX to get it right...it was all worth it!)

Anyway, I'm interested in your project because I've toyed with a similar concept before. But I don't even know how to get started. I've heard, though, that you can sometimes find a local restaurant that might be willing to "rent" their kitchen out to you for a time of day when they aren't using it. That way, you can do your own cooking in a place that is inspected and certified and on the up-and-up without having to actually buy all the equipment. I know there's even a kitchen in Chicago that is strictly for renting.

I'm pretty sure this is possible, but I don't know what kind of paperwork needs to be done. Anyone gone this route before and have some insight?

- Somersky at Serv-U

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

Really? Huh. I guess that's one method to try and accomplish what's needed and to keep the store open.

Uh, that was said in jest. I can't beleive anyone would take that statement seriously.

But at the same time, no one that obviously anal-retentive deserves to be in such a position of power. I would seriously do whatever I could to have that person's job. There are ways to fight city hall, you just have to do it in a round-about way.

Given the amount of food recalls and random food poisoning outbreaks at fairs and fast food recently, I want more anal retentive HD officials, not less. I know this episode seems extreme, but you can't pick and choose. So, I would rather they enforce it all.

Billy, dear god. You have a full keyboard. It does not take great effort to write are instead of r. Stop texting us and write normally.

quote:

And you believe that you could get someone fired for being good at his job and doing that job by the book?

There are many ways to get someone fired, my friend. Any inspector who cites someone for a shelf measurement being 1/8" off is NOT doing a good job, but is an overzealous tyrant with a bone to pick who is abusing the power of his or her position. They should be fired.

A big problem in today's society is that too many want to follow the exact letter of the law, instead of the intent. Too many people in positions of power seem completely lacking in common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

And you believe that you could get someone fired for being good at his job and doing that job by the book?

There are many ways to get someone fired, my friend. Any inspector who cites someone for a shelf measurement being 1/8" off is NOT doing a good job, but is an overzealous tyrant with a bone to pick who is abusing the power of his or her position. They should be fired.

A big problem in today's society is that too many want to follow the exact letter of the law, instead of the intent. Too many people in positions of power seem completely lacking in common sense.

Of course. I should have realized that someone actually doing what he or she is supposed to do has to be wrong and should lose the job.

quote:

Personally, I'd just spend the 5 minutes it would take me to widen the shelf rather than wasting my valuable time trying to create harm for someone doing their job. I'd thank the inspector for helping me find any weaknesses in my operation and offer him a beverage. I'd try to cultivate a good working relationship. But, hey, that's just me. YMMV (shrug)

Couldn't that beverage be seen as a bribe? Seriously though, what happens next time when he suddenly discovers that your entire building sits 6" too close to the street? Plan to move it and offer him a steak dinner?

quote:

Of course. I should have realized that someone actually doing what he or she is supposed to do has to be wrong and should lose the job.

Sir, there is a big difference between doing your job and abusing your job. That's the whole point. Whatever happened to common sense?

As you wish.

A few years ago I purchased a building and had to install a handicap accessible restroom in order to be ADA compliant and get my C.O.

The way the toilet was situated, I was about 4" shy of the required wheelchair clearance in one direction. Since those lacking 4 inches were against an exterior wall, gaining them would mean relocating the entire restroom and all it's plumbing, which was set in a concrete foundation. A lot of expense.

I knew the inspector would probably call me on it, so I armed myself beforehand with plenty of ammunition: I went around town measuring handicap restrooms and found half a dozen that were non-compliant in the exact same way, including one in a recently built Lowes. When the inspector pointed out the shortcoming, I politely told him what I had found at other places and handed him the list I'd made. Guess what? I passed the inspection.

As it was I still spent close to $1500 making the restroom handicap compliant. In the two and a half years I occupied that building we had exactly two people in wheelchairs ever come through the door, and only one of them used the restroom. But that's the cost of doing business I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

quote:

Personally, I'd just spend the 5 minutes it would take me to widen the shelf rather than wasting my valuable time trying to create harm for someone doing their job. I'd thank the inspector for helping me find any weaknesses in my operation and offer him a beverage. I'd try to cultivate a good working relationship. But, hey, that's just me. YMMV (shrug)

Couldn't that beverage be seen as a bribe? Seriously though, what happens next time when he suddenly discovers that your entire building sits 6" too close to the street? Plan to move it and offer him a steak dinner?

It wouldn't be seen legally as a bribe, nor would it be seen as a bribe in the commonsense world; unless, of course, you think there are individuals willing to sell their ethics for the price of a pop.

As to the building comment, why would a health department inspection have anything to do with building codes? As such, doesn't your jurisdiction require any sort of plan and boundry review, along with a building permit process? When I built my restaurant, the permit process was a 6 month process. Oh, wait....I bet you're just being facetious again (snicker); what a kidder you are.

Seriously, you can approach the situation in whatever hostile and over-the-top angry expression you wish to persue 'cause it ain't no skin off my nose. If you want to approach the stated problem by punching someone out, getting someone fired, or some other form of retribution against a guy following the code, rather than by solving the problem, that's your choice.

Me, I've got a business to run. I WANT my health inspectors to be nit-picky so that I can run a tight operation. If I feel that an inspector is being abusive, then I'll talk to that inspector and try to resolve the issue. I always have the option of going up the chain-of-command if the inspector and I can't come to a resolution. I always pick my fights with care.

I don't view the health department inspectors as a 'me against THEM' issue. I view my inspectors as part of my quality assurance team. I am excrutiatingly concerned, almost obsessive, about my customer's safety. There is no government agency that is more concerned than I am about food safety. If there is ever a food-illness outbreak connected to my operation, my business would suffer a loss of reputation and income that would be difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

If ever I get to a point in which I become as intemperate a person comparable to that which you have written, I would leave the food business because the anger and stress would be bad for my health.

Don't think local powers that be are beyond abusing regulations in order to accomplish their own underhanded agenda when it suits them.

Recently in our county there was a certain "Spa" of questionable reputation which operated without incident for several years before local residents decided it was bad for the community and should be closed down. Law enforcement couldn't prove sufficient illegal activity to shut them down, so the county health department stepped in and suddenly found that their septic system wasn't up to code - something that hadn't been a problem until the county needed it to be one.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

A big problem in today's society is that too many want to follow the exact letter of the law, instead of the intent. Too many people in positions of power seem completely lacking in common sense.

I have to support you on this, SimonD. Michael H has always been a "by the book" poster as far as I have seen... no offense Michael but really that 1/8" off (of a space under cold storage shelves?!?!?!) is just ridiculous! Do folks prefer their health inspectors waste time going after those kinds of measurements (surely the intent of the regulation was met!)... or actually follow-up real health issues?! As bethgr had posted when I described an experience getting a parasite from seafood, the health dept should have followed up by calling me for more info. They did not and the place stayed open, and I heard of several others who have been sick after eating there since...

We don't write laws just to have rules, we write them for the intent behind them. Same with health inspectors, IMHO their job is to keep us healthy, not issue violations for very very small issues that will not affect anyone's health.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

Don't think the local powers that be are beyond abusing regulations in order to accomplish their own underhanded agenda whenit suits them.

Recently in our county there was a certain "Spa" of questionable reputation which operated without incident for several years before local residents decided it was bad for the community and should be closed down. Law enforcement couldn't prove sufficient illegal activity to shut them down, so the county health department stepped in and suddenly found that their septic system wasn't up to code - something that hadn't been a problem until the county needed it to be one.

Yes, if the "therapists" giving handjobs and happy endings had been there for a few years, it was wrong for people to want them out and for the government they elected to find a way to do it. What were they thinking?

quote:

Yes, if the "therapists" giving handjobs and happy endings had been there for a few years, it was wrong for people to want them out and for the government they elected to find a way to do it. What were they thinking?

I wasn't commenting on the morality of the business, but the methods the local powers used in accomplishing their goal. What's to prevent the same methods being used aginst some poor legit restauranteur that some less than ethical city official happens to take a personal disliking to.

I'm saying that if you have an inspector looking for and finding 1/8" discrepencies in an 8" shelf measurement, there maybe more involved than a man just doing his job. Especially if the violation pre-existed for several years without problem or citation.

And Capone got nabbed for tax evasion not murder. What's to stop some zealous investigator from finding other violations. Solution - be up to code. If inspectors are more by the book than they used to be, good. Step in the right direction. The inspector who let you open a new place by showing you you were as behind the restroom building code as people who had been there before the code is the one who should be fired. The idea of the codes is that new establishments should keep improving and you should have figured out the cost of all improvements you would need to factor that into the price of the building. What's the point improving standards if you can just pick and choose which ones you want to follow and for what years. I'm assuming different counsels choose which items would fall under a grandfather clause.

quote:

Originally posted by divefl

The inspector who let you open a new place by showing you you were as behind the restroom building code as people who had been there before the code is the one who should be fired.

No, sir. The places I pointed to weren't old business' that had been grandfathered in, but newer places that had changed hands under current code. One especially (Lowes) had just been built less than a year prior. That's why my little list had leverage. If they'd all been older places constructed under old code I wouldn't have had much of an arguement, now would I?.

This whole thread reminds me of the contrast between the bumbling, always-by-the-book, Barney Fife, and the pragmatic, level-headed, voice-of-reason Andy Taylor on the old Andy Griffith Show.

I'll take Andy any day.

quote:

This whole thread reminds me of the contrast between the bumbling, always-by-the-book, Barney Fife, and the pragmatic, level-headed, voice-of-reason Andy Taylor on the old Andy Griffith Show.

I'll take Andy any day.

You mean the episode where Andy proceeds to give a big ol' asswhoopin' to Barney and then fires him? I guess I don't see the same analogy that you do. Especially since the thread drift centered on how some would react and respond to an unreasonable situation.

Say what you want, but rules are there as a guide, not as an absolute in all situations. They must be tempered with common sense - Something sadly lacking in the world today.

There was a local news story just a couple days ago about a man who was jailed for not fixing a hole in his own roof. As if that in and of itself is not absurd enough, the hole in question had already been fixed and inspected prior to his arrest.

There was a technicality involved, and miscommunicaion, but hey, rules are rules.

quote:

Originally posted by SimonD

Say what you want, but rules are there as a guide, not as an absolute in all situations. They must be tempered with common sense - Something sadly lacking in the world today.

Some would agree with you, but they would be incorrect. Health district rules, which are the codefication of enacted legislation, are usually a minimum standard of acceptable performance. While it is sometimes true that a judgement call by an inspector may leave some discretion, as long as the inspector does not impose a tougher standard then the rule itself, the inspector is still within his legal right. But my response to your post was never about an inspector's exacting standard.

You had initially provided two 'solutions' that were untenable and, in my opinion, just as lacking in the common sense to which you espouse. Those responses would have made a slightly negative situation much worse. That's what has polarized this discussion into a defense of a newly-hired inspector. Your later responses were far more productive. In my considerable experience, a shelf that is measuring 'short' would not be considered a critical violation. If the shelf is ignored and not fixed, it would not risk any punitive action from the inspector. As such, it warrants a far more tempered interaction with the inspector than the one you had indicated you would provide.

quote:

There was a local news story just a couple days ago about a man who was jailed for not fixing a hole in his own roof. As if that in and of itself is not absurd enough, the hole in question had already been fixed and inspected prior to his arrest.

There was a technicality involved, and miscommunicaion, but hey, rules are rules.

It would be interesting to know all of the facts involved, but your example is neither here nor there in terms of this thread. There are scads of examples of beauracratic excesses, and there are scads of examples where seemingly unreasonable rules have served the public well. We can list such examples all day long in order to back up our respective positions and it would quickly grow tedious and wearisome. Besides, as I had stated previously, my response was tendered based on your initial post and as such, had nothing to do with whether or not the newly hired inspector was reasonable or unreasonable. My response was based on whether or not your response was reasonable.

Rules are not guides. Guides are guidelines. It's more successful in behavioral training to use variable reinforcement is a guide for training an animal. Rules are rules - In baseball you have to run the bases 1st, 2nd, 3rd, home in order to receive a point and not be called out. The words are not synonyms.