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 Kenneth Lay

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Tedbear

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RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 6:33 AM (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by seafarer john

What I remember about Jimmy Carter is that he was honest, modest, frugal, careing, and never bilked an employee or stockholder out of a penny in his life. And unlike our current president, when things went bad in the failed rescue mission in Iran he took the responsibility - compare that, if you dare, with our current president.

cheers, John



That reflects my feelings on Jimmy Carter also. There is no question that his administration was not successful overall, but he was not one to dodge the issue of responsibility for what took place "on his watch".

While he was always a person of genuine faith, it appears that his dedication to helping the less fortunate truly blossomed after he left office. Perhaps that is his form of penance for the shortcomings of his administration. Of course, the totality of the shortcomings of his administration would now look like a good day for the current occupant of The White House.

My, how times change.
 
#31
    Tedbear

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    RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 10:52 AM (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Parses6

    WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
    As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.



    And I'm sure that the families of the thousands of people who have been killed, wounded, crippled and maimed as a result of our misadventure in the Middle East are comforted by those observations.
     
    #32
      Pwingsx

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      RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 10:54 AM (permalink)
      Here's the article that was referenced on Drudge this morning (oh, I confessed to reading yellow journalism, eeek).

      http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/12/news/newsmakers/lay.reut/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories

      Cremated, huh? Suuuuuure.
       
      #33
        ctrueder

        • Total Posts: 104
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        • Location: Columbia, MD
        RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 11:18 AM (permalink)
        quote:
        Originally posted by seafarer john

        What I remember about Jimmy Carter is that he was honest, modest, frugal, careing, and never bilked an employee or stockholder out of a penny in his life. And unlike our current president, when things went bad in the failed rescue mission in Iran he took the responsibility - compare that, if you dare, with our current president.

        cheers, John


        I wonder if it's possible to be as honest as Jimmy Carter and be a successful politician. I really think politicians (at least MOST politicians) measure "SUCCESS" by how much they can steal from the taxpayers!
         
        #34
          -Tricky-

          • Total Posts: 305
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          • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
          RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 11:33 AM (permalink)
          quote:
          Originally posted by Parses6

          WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
          As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.


          Yeah, some of us are more concerned with other things than the nation's financial situation.
           
          #35
            Tedbear

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            RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 12:03 PM (permalink)
            quote:
            Originally posted by Parses6

            quote:
            Originally posted by Tedbear

            quote:
            Originally posted by Parses6

            WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
            As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.



            And I'm sure that the families of the thousands of people who have been killed, wounded, crippled and maimed as a result of our misadventure in the Middle East are comforted by those observations.

            No merely a few hundred million Americans should be comforted by those observations.



            Only if they place more value on the almighty dollar than they do on human lives. Gee, I wonder what Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammed (or other religious philosophers and leaders) would have thought about the relative importance of these very different issues. Would they have placed more importance on the economy than on the sanctity of human life?

            I think that I am more comfortable siding with Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed than in lining up on the side of Mammon.

            I also think that if I were you, I would be very careful about using the term "bewildered fool in the White House". That comes painfully close to describing the current occupant, and you certainly wouldn't want to start that debate/discussion.
             
            #36
              ctrueder

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              RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 12:36 PM (permalink)
              quote:
              Originally posted by Parses6

              quote:
              Originally posted by ctrueder

              WHOA!!! Hold on a minute . . . you Clinton-bashers!

              For many years, his (Lay's) corporation was the single biggest contributor to President Bush, who nicknamed him "Kenny Boy."

              Now, Dubya and his old man were "into" their old Houston buddy "Kenny Boy" like white on rice (or, perhaps, in some more intimate ways . . . oh, never mind!)

              AND, this is from a guy who was born and raised in Houston and who was a professor at the University of Houston (and we "profs" always get the low-down! HeeHee!)

              Now, as an all-seeing, all-knowing Houston "prof" . . . I can tell you that Kenneth Lay's "death" is Bulls***! The Bushies are taking care of their "boy!"




              wow an actual live conspiracy nut! Although Lay and Enron have given more $$ to the republicans and bush (73%) they have given over 1/4 (27%) to clinton and the democrats. Those maggots like to spread the money around.
              Now where might the Bushs' be hiding Mr Lay?... with Mr Presley?


              I heard the Bushies were hiding him out in the hangar with TWA 800!
               
              #37
                Jimeats

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                RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 12:48 PM (permalink)
                Developing story, A banker from England also indited along with 3 others in the Enron scandel has been found dead in England. I'm sure the writers in Hollyweird are already spanking away on their computors. Chow Jim
                 
                #38
                  Fieldthistle

                  • Total Posts: 1948
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                  • Location: Hinton, VA
                  RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 2:39 PM (permalink)
                  Hello All,
                  This is not a put-down to this thread, but threads like this sadden me.
                  A man, bad or just freakin' greedy, died and we are dancing on his grave.
                  I keep coming to this thread with a guilty blush on my face, asking myself,
                  why do I come back to this thread?
                  I understand, from what I read on Roadfood, that many people here have money
                  and are invested in the stock market and big businesses. Maybe it is time
                  to prevent or rein in some of the Ken Lays that are currently in charge of
                  our economy. The current word is that our nation's economy is in great shape,
                  growing beyond expections when you view that we are involved in two war-fronts,
                  have high oil exports, are dealing with 2 nations that want to develop nuclear
                  programs that distrub balances of power in the Far East and Middle East, have a
                  national infra-structure of highways and buildings that is eroding (and even when
                  we build new ones like the Big-Dig, we can't do it right) and the President is happy
                  that our national deflict is only $296 Billion instead of $423 Billion, and etc..
                  Ken Lay...I didn't know the man. He had a history prior to Enron. He may have been
                  a S.O.B.. I am probably a S.O.B. to many people, (but I can assure you my mother is not a
                  bitch.)
                  My point is maybe we should watch or become more involved so that there are less
                  Enrons and other nasty episodes that cause us pain, guilt, and hardened hearts. We have
                  children and grandchildren to look out for...and we have OUR future to guard and preserve as
                  well.
                  I don't want to dance on Lay's grave. I want to have a good meal with good feelings about life.
                  Take Care,
                  Fieldthistle (a proud liberal/conservative democrat)
                   
                  #39
                    Tedbear

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                    RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 2:52 PM (permalink)
                    Fieldthistle--While I appreciate your usual role of pouring oil upon the troubled waters, I think that you should be aware of a few facts that may have been miscommunicated in your posting:

                    We do not have high exports of oil (or virtually anything else) from the US, and therein lies one of the major problems facing our nation's economy both now and in the future.

                    Most of the people who logged on in this thread are not dancing on the grave of Ken Lay (assuming that he really did die), but are merely speculating about whether he really did die, and are reflecting on how he destroyed the financial future of thousands of Enron employees through the devaluation of the Enron stock that Mr. Lay touted right up to the point of their bankruptcy.

                    Also, while all of the investigations have not been completed, it appears fairly certain at this point that the severe electricity shortage in California several years ago was engineered by Enron (and Mr. Lay) for the manipulation of the energy-trading markets in the name of more ill-gotten gains for themselves. How many people in California suffered as a result of that greed?

                    Perhaps things went a bit off-track when one person steered us into the Jimmy Carter tangent. However, I don't think that the essential spirit of this thread was one of dancing on Mr. Lay's grave (whether that grave is real or simulated).
                     
                    #40
                      Fieldthistle

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                      RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 3:47 PM (permalink)
                      Hello All,
                      Tedbear, I truly apologize if I miscommunicated anything in my post. And I would love for you
                      to e-mail me to explain how the meaning of how you "appreciate your usual role of pouring oil upon
                      troubled waters,.."
                      You were right...instead of exports, I should have said, imports, of oil. I shan't edit my first
                      mistake. My blemish stands. A fault of being awake too long and not reading what I wrote before
                      posting.
                      And I do not negative the outrage that is felt by those whose are suffering because of Lay's greed
                      and deceptive business practices. I encourage us all to be vigilant so that such episodes do not
                      happen again. And regardless of this current regime's assurances and hopes,(pause) a reasoned,(not republican
                      or democrat) perspective can see that we have major problems and few solutions. And the solutions that
                      are being offered are weak, too late, and are based on a vision of a world that doesn't exist.
                      Despite all the talk of a global economy, when push comes to shove, it is what the corporations feel
                      makes them feel safe and prosper. Governments go along with it as long as helps them, but like
                      corporations, they will use the knife when it is in their interests. We hear the mantra of Global
                      Economy, but in reality the world is fragmented and itchy,...and becoming hard-hearted and cold.
                      Perhaps I was foolish using the phrase, dancing on his grave. I really wanted to ask everyone to
                      not focus on one man, but examine a problem that is engraved in the world's economic and social mind.
                      I do not have the wisdom of an answer. But I venture to ask us to seek answers.
                      Tedbear, is that pouring oil upon the troubled waters? Hey, I know I'm an a..hole.
                      Take Care,
                      Fieldthistle
                      p.s. I hope I've not offended anyone...and I wish I could have been
                      the one to make the comment about Lay's Potato Chips
                      and when I say I'm an a..hole, it's because I believe
                      I could be. I'm just searching and often speak out of
                      place.
                       
                      #41
                        V960

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                        RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 4:54 PM (permalink)
                        Fieeldthisle,
                        Just keep it up my man. Built that bbq pit yet?
                         
                        #42
                          sinkiller

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                          • Location: venice, CA
                          RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 4:54 PM (permalink)
                          quote:
                          Originally posted by Al-The Mayor-Bowen

                          Those chips were a bit oily though!!


                          True, but they provided alot of natural gas!
                           
                          #43
                            Tedbear

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                            RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 6:24 PM (permalink)
                            I have sent Fieldthistle an e-mail, explaining my reference (perhaps an obscure one, at that) to "pouring oil on troubled waters". It was meant as a compliment, and I hope that it is widely perceived as such. If anyone else would like an explanation, please let me know.
                             
                            #44
                              EdSails

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                              RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 6:51 PM (permalink)
                              quote:
                              Originally posted by Tedbear


                              I have sent Fieldthistle an e-mail, explaining my reference (perhaps an obscure one, at that) to "pouring oil on troubled waters". It was meant as a compliment, and I hope that it is widely perceived as such. If anyone else would like an explanation, please let me know.


                              Doesn't have anything to do with the Exxon Valdez, does it?


                               
                              #45
                                Tedbear

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                                RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 7:07 PM (permalink)
                                quote:
                                Originally posted by EdSails

                                quote:
                                Originally posted by Tedbear


                                I have sent Fieldthistle an e-mail, explaining my reference (perhaps an obscure one, at that) to "pouring oil on troubled waters". It was meant as a compliment, and I hope that it is widely perceived as such. If anyone else would like an explanation, please let me know.


                                Doesn't have anything to do with the Exxon Valdez, does it?






                                Ummm....No--quite the opposite.
                                 
                                #46
                                  Greymo

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                                  RE: Kenneth Lay Thu, 07/13/06 7:35 PM (permalink)
                                  quote:
                                  Originally posted by Tedbear


                                  I have sent Fieldthistle an e-mail, explaining my reference (perhaps an obscure one, at that) to "pouring oil on troubled waters". It was meant as a compliment, and I hope that it is widely perceived as such. If anyone else would like an explanation, please let me know.


                                  I would indeed...............you seem to know so much!
                                   
                                  #47
                                    Fieldthistle

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                                    RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 1:14 AM (permalink)
                                    Hello All,
                                    V960, the bbq-pit is on hold, unfortunately.
                                    Tedbear, I checked my e-mail and your message to me must have been lost or deleted.
                                    But that doesn't matter. Tedbear, you are and have always been an honourable person.
                                    Your postings reflect a good and thinking soul. I did not mean to cause a misunderstanding
                                    by asking you to e-mail me an explanation of your words about oil on troubled waters.
                                    I am sorry if my tone in requesting an e-mail sounded like a challenge or caused others
                                    to misinterrupt your words.
                                    I don't have to say it, but I will...Tedbear has a good soul and good thinking mind.
                                    I apologize if my skin seemed a little too thin to a phrase I was not familiar with.
                                    That said, let us all share a Lay's potato chip together in harmony.
                                    And Tedbear, I do mean it when I say I think you are a good and thinking soul.
                                    Take Care,
                                    Fieldthistle
                                     
                                    #48
                                      Jimeats

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                                      RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 6:19 AM (permalink)
                                      My apologys with the refrence to the former President, a person who I truly admire. He along with Mr. Lay surrounded themselves with bad advisors was what I was making refrence to. President Carter was the only President that ever called me on Christmas to wish me and my family Happy Holidays. Thank you Mr. President,he said call me Jimmy please. Chow Jim
                                       
                                      #49
                                        Tedbear

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                                        RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 6:37 AM (permalink)
                                        These are some definitions that I found for my apparently obscure phrase, "pouring oil on troubled waters":

                                        To calm a disturbance: “His ideas caused real dissension within the party at first, but he poured oil on troubled waters in last night’s speech.”

                                        ‡ In ancient times, oil was often poured on ocean waves to calm turbulence, a practice that would be denounced today.


                                        So, as you can see, I was referring to Fieldthistle's frequent role of calming heated discussions on this board.
                                         
                                        #50
                                          seafarer john

                                          RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 9:47 AM (permalink)
                                          Standard gear stowed in lifeboats (at least up 'till 1958 the last year I sailed) was a can of "sea oil". The oil was to be used to knock the whitecaps and flying spume off the waves- "calming troubled waters". I never saw it in use, so cant vouch for its effectiveness, but it was carried in lifeboats for many many years so must have had some effect.

                                          Cheers, John
                                           
                                          #51
                                            lunasatic

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                                            RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 3:46 PM (permalink)
                                            And gas has tripled+ at the pump since 2000. And as goes gas, so goes everything transported by it. It's the uncountable moral decline that hurts everyone the most, though. I'm not talking about the Christian Right version; just simple human-to-human decency and courtesy that I miss. Jimmy Carter is our only living political representative of this.
                                            quote:
                                            Originally posted by Parses6

                                            WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
                                            As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.
                                             
                                            #52
                                              lunasatic

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                                              RE: Kenneth Lay Fri, 07/14/06 3:51 PM (permalink)
                                              As far as the Oil/Middle East/USA situation, has anybody read Robert Baer's books "Sleeping With the Devil" and "See No Evil"? Another piece of the puzzle! (I get into more trouble like this . . .)
                                               
                                              #53
                                                Jimeats

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                                                RE: Kenneth Lay Sun, 07/16/06 8:31 AM (permalink)
                                                quote:
                                                Originally posted by seafarer john

                                                Standard gear stowed in lifeboats (at least up 'till 1958 the last year I sailed) was a can of "sea oil". The oil was to be used to knock the whitecaps and flying spume off the waves- "calming troubled waters". I never saw it in use, so cant vouch for its effectiveness, but it was carried in lifeboats for many many years so must have had some effect.That was along side the keg of rum, right? Ah! the days of iron men and wooden ships. Chow Jim

                                                Cheers, John
                                                 
                                                #54
                                                  saps

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                                                  RE: Kenneth Lay Sun, 07/16/06 12:49 PM (permalink)
                                                  quote:
                                                  Originally posted by Tedbear

                                                  quote:
                                                  Originally posted by Parses6

                                                  WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
                                                  As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.



                                                  And I'm sure that the families of the thousands of people who have been killed, wounded, crippled and maimed as a result of our misadventure in the Middle East are comforted by those observations.


                                                  Are you talking about all of the ciizens that were murdered when Saddam was in control?
                                                   
                                                  #55
                                                    seafarer john

                                                    RE: Kenneth Lay Sun, 07/16/06 1:22 PM (permalink)
                                                    Somehow it escapes me how Saddam's murderous regime should be used to excuse the murderous mess Bush , Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld have created in that poor country.

                                                    Cheers, John
                                                     
                                                    #56
                                                      MilwFoodlovers

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                                                      RE: Kenneth Lay Sun, 07/16/06 2:35 PM (permalink)
                                                      Saddam's murderous ways never were mentioned when he was
                                                      a) a friend of America in general and
                                                      b) a friend of Rumsfeld in particular along with GHB.
                                                      No, it seems that happened only after no WMD (just take a minute and reflect on those words) were found.
                                                      Is he worse than Muammar Gaddafi? Kim Jong-Il? Robert Mugabe? Charles Taylor? The military junta leaders of Myanmar? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Islam Karimov? Saparmurat Niyazov?
                                                      Is it your contention that America must shed the blood of its young ridding the world of evil leaders? or just those whose country have oil deposits?
                                                      I mentioned to my friends several years ago when George started his saber rattling (and how when we all knew he was going to attack Iraq, didn't they have armored vests and armored vehicles for our boys and girls in uniform-absolutely unforgivable) that Saddam , bad as he was, was the only thing holding that country together ala Tito. I said they'll be such a mess if he's removed, we'll come to regret it. That is why GW's father had stopped the battle.
                                                       
                                                      #57
                                                        Pwingsx

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                                                        RE: Kenneth Lay Sun, 07/16/06 3:37 PM (permalink)
                                                        Well said, John.
                                                         
                                                        #58
                                                          roossy90

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                                                          RE: Kenneth Lay Mon, 07/17/06 4:24 AM (permalink)
                                                          quote:
                                                          Originally posted by Parses6

                                                          WTF! are we really getting nostalgic about 10% unemployment, 12% annual inflation, 20% lending rates to buy a house, prime rate of 21.5%, gas lines, communism spreading the globe, hostages in Iran and a bewildered fool in the White House??? Don't you people remember the late 1970's??? Jimmy Carter was a pathetic leader.
                                                          As bad as you think things are now, unemployment is 4.6%, inflation 2.5%, mortgage rates 6% and prime rate of 5.25% is a whole lot better than the Jimmy Carter years.

                                                          Parses, you are such an ass...
                                                          I am not sure if you born when Carter was President.
                                                          Please go back and eat some more of that DELICIOUS 50/50 blend. or is it now 100% of Monarch Catsup?
                                                          Shoo... at least google something that makes sense and then post it.
                                                           
                                                          #59
                                                            saps

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                                                            RE: Kenneth Lay Mon, 07/17/06 5:04 PM (permalink)
                                                            quote:
                                                            Originally posted by MilwFoodlovers

                                                            Saddam's murderous ways never were mentioned when he was
                                                            a) a friend of America in general and
                                                            b) a friend of Rumsfeld in particular along with GHB.
                                                            No, it seems that happened only after no WMD (just take a minute and reflect on those words) were found.
                                                            Is he worse than Muammar Gaddafi? Kim Jong-Il? Robert Mugabe? Charles Taylor? The military junta leaders of Myanmar? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Islam Karimov? Saparmurat Niyazov?
                                                            Is it your contention that America must shed the blood of its young ridding the world of evil leaders? or just those whose country have oil deposits?
                                                            I mentioned to my friends several years ago when George started his saber rattling (and how when we all knew he was going to attack Iraq, didn't they have armored vests and armored vehicles for our boys and girls in uniform-absolutely unforgivable) that Saddam , bad as he was, was the only thing holding that country together ala Tito. I said they'll be such a mess if he's removed, we'll come to regret it. That is why GW's father had stopped the battle.


                                                            I suppose that we can play pretend or spin things anyway we want by a few well placed words here and there.

                                                            First off, there were diplomatic relations between Iraq and the U.S.
                                                            between 1980 and 1988, but it was for obvious strategic reasons and I would hardly consider them a "friend", much in the way that we would consider China a friend. As anyone knows, although a country may not entirely support another's ideologies, they can establish relationships. Bill Clinton was instrumental in reestablishing ties with China, despite egregious human rights violations, a total disdain for intellectual property rights, patents, and trademarks, and gross neglect of the environment (i.e. industrial chemical dumping, etc.).

                                                            Second, Rumsfeld was Reagan's Middle East envoy to the Middle East and met with Hussein a total of two times in '83 and '84. I haven't had the time to really research that relationship, but I sincerely doubt they were "friends" and your inference as such is only to sow seeds of conspiracy.

                                                            Let's also keep in mind that Carter was a supporter of Iraq's decision to enter Iran and even aided the cause by the prior arms embargo on Iran.

                                                            As far as your comment on the timing of the knowledge of Saddam's anti-humane activity, it wasn't after the lack of finding WMD's. It was well-known in the 90's as he used mustard gas against his own people, as well as other atrocities. I can't speak for the 80's. Frankly, I wasn't paying that close attention and don't remember. Do you?

                                                            quote:
                                                            Is it your contention that America must shed the blood of its young ridding the world of evil leaders? or just those whose country have oil deposits?


                                                            In regards to your second question, I don't think anyone has seen the oil flowing in from Iraq yet, and I haven't seen a track record of the U.S. attacking oil rich countries, so everyone can make all the allegations that they want but frankly I don't know- nor does anyone else except for those making the decisions.

                                                            Your first question is a lot more sensible. The liberal sensibility is to sit back and wait for the first punch. Unfortunately, in this day and age, sitting back and waiting for the first punch could end up in the deaths of millions. The liberal approach of cutting back on defense spending and eroding our intellectual and mechanical defense capital and platforms while potential enemies strenghten theirs is foolhardy at the least.

                                                            On the other hand, attempting to be the world's police only creates more animosity.

                                                            But the liberals prefer to sit in Roger Ebert's chair. Criticism but little in the way of solutions.


                                                             
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