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 Kosher Beef

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Greyghost

  • Total Posts: 1336
  • Joined: 8/19/2004
  • Location: Albany, NY
Kosher Beef Thu, 08/28/08 8:06 PM (permalink)
Kosher Beef

I am confused. Some time ago I saw a meat chart where one part of the same cow was kosher and the other part was not although the cow was slaughtered according to kosher practice. Forgive me, I just don't get it as this is the very same animal. As I recall, the front part of the cow was kosher while the more desirable cuts towards the rear were not.

Can anyone explain this, if this is the case? There must be a reason, but it does elude me.
Obviously, I need education on the matter. I find the subject highly interesting and am looking for people that can teach me about what is kosher and what is not.

Just a side thought...what about buffalo? Unknown in the old world, but similar to beef. Do the same kosher laws apply? Maybe I am too curious for my own good, but I would like to know more about the subject and I don't think I am the only one that is confused.
 
#1
    Michael Hoffman

    • Total Posts: 17848
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    • Location: Gahanna, OH
    RE: Kosher Beef Thu, 08/28/08 8:29 PM (permalink)
    The hind quarters cannot be kosher unless the sciatic nerve and the fat surrounding it are removed. Because this is much too costly to do in the United States, no Kosher meat from the hind quarters is available in this country. Interestingly, you can find Kosher venison hind quarters. That's because it is easier and less expensive to get rid of the sciatic nerve and any minimal amount of fat from deer, elk, moose, pronghorn, and other cervids.
     
    #2
      uncledaveyo

      • Total Posts: 599
      • Joined: 7/3/2006
      • Location: Northern California
      RE: Kosher Beef Thu, 08/28/08 8:48 PM (permalink)
      Thanks Michael: it's great to learn something new everyday.

       
      #3
        kensandyeggo

        • Total Posts: 567
        • Joined: 6/3/2007
        • Location: Charlotte, NC
        RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 1:37 AM (permalink)
        Mr. H., what significance is the sciatic nerve and the fat surrounding it, religious-wise? Why is that particular nerve excluded from the Kosher process?
         
        #4
          jfitz

          • Total Posts: 115
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          • Location: Bettendorf, IA
          RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 5:28 AM (permalink)
          Hey ,they got alot a nerve. The Sciatic nerve and surrounding fat is the best part.Especially over waffles.
           
          #5
            Michael Hoffman

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            RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 12:03 PM (permalink)
            quote:
            Originally posted by kensandyeggo

            Mr. H., what significance is the sciatic nerve and the fat surrounding it, religious-wise? Why is that particular nerve excluded from the Kosher process?

            If I'm not mistaken it is because of the arteries related to the sciatic nerve. As I understand it the arteries permeate the fat which surrounds the nerve, and for meat to be kosher all blood must be removed.
             
            #6
              MrBurns

              • Total Posts: 34
              • Joined: 8/18/2008
              • Location: Yukon
              RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 12:23 PM (permalink)
              I have no idea what difference all this makes. Religion is for loonies.
               
              #7
                mayor al

                • Total Posts: 15069
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                • Roadfood Insider
                RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 12:23 PM (permalink)
                I saw a commercial for Hebrew National Beef Franks this morning that used a visual of the Front Half of a whole beef as being the source of their weinies and the back half as being Non-Kosher. Based on my slim knowledge of the quality of various parts of a cow, I think I am destined to be non-kosher in my dining choices.
                 
                #8
                  Michael Hoffman

                  • Total Posts: 17848
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                  RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 1:06 PM (permalink)
                  quote:
                  Originally posted by MrBurns

                  I have no idea what difference all this makes. Religion is for loonies.

                  Thank you so very much for setting the world straight.
                   
                  #9
                    fabulousoyster

                    • Total Posts: 1855
                    • Joined: 11/17/2005
                    • Location: new york, NY
                    RE: Kosher Beef Fri, 08/29/08 1:26 PM (permalink)
                    Greghost, I love Susie Fishbein and her Kosher recipes. She has several books (the photos are great) but there is one book, "Kosher by Design, Short on Time" which is fabulous! Check out her books if Kosher cooking interests you!
                     
                    #10
                      JudgeMaven

                      • Total Posts: 30
                      • Joined: 5/1/2006
                      • Location: Jerusalem, Israel
                      RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 11:58 AM (permalink)
                      The actual prohibition against eating the sciatic nerve comes from Genesis 32:25-33. Jacob fought with an angel and suffered nerve damage from the hip down. Line 33 actually mentions the prohibition. There is an additional rabbinical interpretation that prohibits an additional nerve (peroneal?), but the sciatic nerve is specifically forbidden.

                      Here in Israel it is possible to purchase kosher cuts from the hindquarters, but boy does it cost a pretty penny (shekel)!

                      ETA: Yes, bison is kosher. It has split hooves and chews its cud. I could get kosher bison when I lived in CT, but Israel doesn't exactly have a great supply of bison roaming around.

                      Shani
                       
                      #11
                        Michael Hoffman

                        • Total Posts: 17848
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                        RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 1:33 PM (permalink)
                        quote:
                        Originally posted by JudgeMaven

                        The actual prohibition against eating the sciatic nerve comes from Genesis 32:25-33. Jacob fought with an angel and suffered nerve damage from the hip down. Line 33 actually mentions the prohibition. There is an additional rabbinical interpretation that prohibits an additional nerve (peroneal?), but the sciatic nerve is specifically forbidden.


                        Thanks for the real reason.

                        32:33 Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein.

                        But you know, I figure it makes more sense, although incorrect, because of blood around the nerve.
                         
                        #12
                          Baah Ben

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                          RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 3:07 PM (permalink)
                          Michael - That's good stuff! I knew about the siatic nerve and not being able to remove it at a reasonable price, but I did not know the blood flow through it was the reason to trash the best parts of the animal! You know what? Even if kosher included the short loin, the salt would kill that decent meat anyway!

                          Oops...Now we're talking about a biblical reason for trashing the siatic nerve. This is really getting involved! Kosher means clean...I always thought the rear of the steer was trashed because it was considered "dirty." Same reason shellfish (scavangers) and swine (use to eat slop and garbage) were not allowed. Milk and meat...upset stomach. Etc etc. Thanks again for the clarification..

                          Can you imagine growing up and never having bacon,sausage ham, shrimp, lobster, scallos and crab meat in your home? Unbelievable.

                          My uncle owned a kosher kill plant in Denver in the 60's. They killed the animal with a manual knife, supposedly by a Rabinical specialist....Yes, it was all about draining the life blood from the animal. It renders the meat like cardboard IMHO. Plus, the front of the steer is the part that gets all the exercise and it is the toughest part of the animal.

                          So, you get the shoulder meat that call shoulder steak (a nighmare in toughness) and chuck steak or roast (lovely) and whatever else ...all those cuts that force Jewish foods to be stewed and braised. The Rabbi blesses it all as he looks intothat salt water in the sinks and of course this adds 50 cents or one dollar per pound! You know Muslims buy Kosher meat too.

                          When I watched the slaughtering process, it looked like a Mexican with a yarmaka (sp) was doing it! They probably shipped out the hind quarters to other local fabricators. I grew up in a Kosher home. The only thing that was decent was the hamburger meat because it was a combination of neck meat (very sweet) tenderloin and chuck.

                          The only legitimate steak we had in the house was a rib steak, which is so rich and so fatty. Half of it has to be thrown away. Or, we had a standing rib roast that was always over-cooked. All the rest of the meats were just terrible, tough, and flavorless.

                          When I went away to college, I ate more swine in the next few years than most Gentiles ate in their entire lives! To this day, it's my favorite meat. Pork fat rules!



                           
                          #13
                            Ashphalt

                            • Total Posts: 1644
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                            RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 3:21 PM (permalink)
                            Really interesting stuff. I noticed the Hebrew National commercial, also and it occurred to me that might be the reason I don't particularly like their dogs.

                            Observant Muslims actually eat Halal meat, but the slaughter and processing is very similar and Muslims in areas with no Halal butcher often substitute Kosher.

                            An Afghani Muslim owner of a good restaurant we frequent has told me that he will not serve Halal meat. He believes that contrary to traditional belief, it's more susceptible to spoilage because the blood is let.
                             
                            #14
                              uncledaveyo

                              • Total Posts: 599
                              • Joined: 7/3/2006
                              • Location: Northern California
                              RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 3:55 PM (permalink)
                              This is one of the most interesting threads I've read on here. Thanks everyone for this fascinating information. I also learned that religion is for loonies so that was awesome too.
                               
                              #15
                                JudgeMaven

                                • Total Posts: 30
                                • Joined: 5/1/2006
                                • Location: Jerusalem, Israel
                                RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 5:09 PM (permalink)
                                quote:
                                Originally posted by Michael Hoffman


                                Originally posted by JudgeMaven

                                Thanks for the real reason.

                                32:33 Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein.

                                But you know, I figure it makes more sense, although incorrect, because of blood around the nerve.


                                Michael and Baah Ben: You are welcome. I am glad to be useful.

                                I enjoy being a looney.
                                 
                                #16
                                  Tedbear

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                                  • Joined: 1/26/2004
                                  • Location: Somerset, NJ
                                  RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 5:22 PM (permalink)

                                  "Cna you imagine growing up and never having bacon,sausage ham, shrimp, lobster, scallos and crab meat in your home? Unbelievable."

                                  That reminds me of a joke. Yes, I know that food jokes are being posted in another thread, but this particular joke really fits in this thread:

                                  A Priest and a Rabbi were conversing about their religious traditions. The Priest asked the Rabbi, "Is it true that you are not allowed to eat ham sandwiches, or bacon, or other pork products?". The Rabbi replied, "Yes, Father that is true, but I have to confess that I once cheated and I did enjoy the taste of ham". The Priest reponded by saying, "Honestly Rabbi, I love ham sandwiches so much that I could not imagine having to do without them."

                                  The Rabbi then asked the Priest, "Is it true that you are not allowed to engage in sexual relations?" The Priest replied, "Yes, Rabbi it is true that we are required to be celibate, but before I took my final vows, I did experience sex with a woman on one occasion".

                                  The Rabbi smiled and said, "Quite a bit better than a ham sandwich, isn't it Father!"


                                   
                                  #17
                                    ScreamingChicken

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                                    • Joined: 11/5/2004
                                    • Location: Stoughton, WI
                                    RE: Kosher Beef Sat, 08/30/08 6:00 PM (permalink)
                                    And a cold beer goes great with either.

                                    Brad
                                     
                                    #18
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