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 NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban

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DawnT

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  • Location: South FL
NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 2:46 AM (permalink)
While I haven't seen the actual proposal, I've caught two newscasts and read a few articles on the net. I really agree with the idea of cellphone operation and texting being too distracting for most drivers. I don't agree with the handsfree ban as it's no more distracting then speaking with a passenger. In my vehicle, it's just a switch on the steering wheel to answer. Most of the cellphone,navigation,and entertainment system distraction is from navigating a visual, menu driven interface that demands attention from the road. By the same token, users of two way radios are to be equally affected. For nearly 70 years, cab drivers, police officers, ham radio operators, and other mobile operators have managed to communicate safely without distraction. Now for some reason, police officers and first responders are exempt due to professional training that seemingly gives them the special ability to divide their concentration between driving and mobile operaton that us mere humans appear to be incapable of. I've never known of any police or fire academy that trains for communications multitasking. The proposal from what I've heard of it seem to be a bit far reaching. As i've mentione b4 on this issue, if this is totally about distractions from keeping both hands on the wheel and eyes on the road, parents shouldn't be allowed to drive with their children either.
 
#1
    jeepguy

    • Total Posts: 1555
    • Joined: 3/29/2004
    • Location: chicago, IL
    Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 3:23 AM (permalink)
    I suggest steering wheel handcuffs. 
     
    #2
      jman

      • Total Posts: 1277
      • Joined: 12/25/2007
      • Location: berea, KY
      Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 9:52 AM (permalink)
      For fear of turning this into a political discussion, I'll limit my comments to two two-word comments.  Slippery Slope.  Nanny State.  All your comments are dead on.
       
      #3
        felix4067

        • Total Posts: 3306
        • Joined: 12/13/2003
        • Location: Near Grand Rapids, MI
        Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 10:44 AM (permalink)
        I find myself wondering if they're going to ban all talking in cars, eating in cars, changing the radio station, drinking a soda, and using GPS as well.
         
        Oh. Wait. GPS is exempt from the ban. Because it's FAR less dangerous to type in an address on a GPS unit and then look at the map it produces than to talk on a hands-free cell phone. 
         
        Agreed, jman. Hard to stay neutral on this one. I get the problem, but I somehow doubt this is a solution.
         
        #4
          6star

          • Total Posts: 4388
          • Joined: 1/28/2004
          • Location: West Peoria, IL
          Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 11:17 AM (permalink)
          I am almost positive that texting is what has brought this problem to a head.  Unless you have two sets of eyes, it is impossible to text and keep your eyes on the road.  My solution would be a required device in every car to block all texting (both sending and receiving) when the car is in gear.  And yes, GPS is just as dangerous, and should also be blocked when the car is in gear!
           
          #5
            chewingthefat

            • Total Posts: 6103
            • Joined: 11/22/2007
            • Location: Emmitsburg, Md.
            Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 12:27 PM (permalink)
            DawnT


            While I haven't seen the actual proposal, I've caught two newscasts and read a few articles on the net. I really agree with the idea of cellphone operation and texting being too distracting for most drivers. I don't agree with the handsfree ban as it's no more distracting then speaking with a passenger. In my vehicle, it's just a switch on the steering wheel to answer. Most of the cellphone,navigation,and entertainment system distraction is from navigating a visual, menu driven interface that demands attention from the road. By the same token, users of two way radios are to be equally affected. For nearly 70 years, cab drivers, police officers, ham radio operators, and other mobile operators have managed to communicate safely without distraction. Now for some reason, police officers and first responders are exempt due to professional training that seemingly gives them the special ability to divide their concentration between driving and mobile operaton that us mere humans appear to be incapable of. I've never known of any police or fire academy that trains for communications multitasking. The proposal from what I've heard of it seem to be a bit far reaching. As i've mentione b4 on this issue, if this is totally about distractions from keeping both hands on the wheel and eyes on the road, parents shouldn't be allowed to drive with their children either.

            They can't drive with children, unless they are in Child seats which renders them harmless.
            I completely support the ban, as I see sooooo much terrible driving by people on cell phones or texting. If no laws are put in place, watch your auto insurance premiums skyrocket!

             
            #6
              MilwFoodlovers

              • Total Posts: 3095
              • Joined: 3/31/2001
              • Location: Milwaukee, WI
              Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 1:22 PM (permalink)

               
              An investigation of this accident near Gray Summit in Missouri has led the National Transportation Safety Board to call for a nation ban on texting and use of other personal electronic devices while driving. The 19-year-old driver of the very crushed pickup who died in the crash, sent 11 texts in the 11 minutes before the 4-vehicle crash, the NTSB said. The pickup is under the bus and behind the truck cab.
               
              #7
                Tony Bad

                Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 1:33 PM (permalink)
                DawnT

                 I don't agree with the handsfree ban as it's no more distracting then speaking with a passenger.
                 
                 
                This is false and a google search can provide you with plenty of info on the topic. The problem isn't what you are doing with your hands, but the mental activity associated with talking to a remote person over the phone. Other distractions are also an issue, but none approach cell phone use. I hate the idea of more laws but too many people feel they have some superior skill set that leaves them unaffected, and this simply isn't the case. It should be fairly common knowledge that talking on the phone is a major distraction and leaves one far more likely to be involved in a crash. One would think reasonable people would take that info alone and act more responsible. Seems to me they don't, and so yet again, the talk is of more laws.
                 
                As for police and fire, their "conversations" are usually a bit more significant and far more pointed. I think it is unreasonable to equate the distraction caused by a fire truck driver or policeman speaking/listening to communications about an emergency with the discussions of the average driver. Maybe we should install flashing lights and sirens on all cars and have them go on when people are on the phone so we'd know when a distracted driver is approaching!
                 
                #8
                  jman

                  • Total Posts: 1277
                  • Joined: 12/25/2007
                  • Location: berea, KY
                  Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 3:18 PM (permalink)
                  chewingthefat


                  DawnT


                  While I haven't seen the actual proposal, I've caught two newscasts and read a few articles on the net. I really agree with the idea of cellphone operation and texting being too distracting for most drivers. I don't agree with the handsfree ban as it's no more distracting then speaking with a passenger. In my vehicle, it's just a switch on the steering wheel to answer. Most of the cellphone,navigation,and entertainment system distraction is from navigating a visual, menu driven interface that demands attention from the road. By the same token, users of two way radios are to be equally affected. For nearly 70 years, cab drivers, police officers, ham radio operators, and other mobile operators have managed to communicate safely without distraction. Now for some reason, police officers and first responders are exempt due to professional training that seemingly gives them the special ability to divide their concentration between driving and mobile operaton that us mere humans appear to be incapable of. I've never known of any police or fire academy that trains for communications multitasking. The proposal from what I've heard of it seem to be a bit far reaching. As i've mentione b4 on this issue, if this is totally about distractions from keeping both hands on the wheel and eyes on the road, parents shouldn't be allowed to drive with their children either.

                  They can't drive with children, unless they are in Child seats which renders them harmless.
                  I completely support the ban, as I see sooooo much terrible driving by people on cell phones or texting. If no laws are put in place, watch your auto insurance premiums skyrocket!

                  Are you kidding?  Just because you've got kids strapped down, it doesn't make them "harmless".  A crying or screaming kid is a distraction.  Two or more kids bickering with each other is a distraction. 
                   
                  A nagging spouse is a distraction.  A back-seat driver is a distraction.  There are many things a driver can do that are distractions such as eating, rubber-necking, putting on make-up (yes, I've seen plenty of women driving and applying make-up), changing radio stations, etc.
                   
                  Like I said before, Slippery Slope.
                   
                  #9
                    felix4067

                    • Total Posts: 3306
                    • Joined: 12/13/2003
                    • Location: Near Grand Rapids, MI
                    Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 3:31 PM (permalink)
                    jman


                    Are you kidding?  Just because you've got kids strapped down, it doesn't make them "harmless".  A crying or screaming kid is a distraction.  Two or more kids bickering with each other is a distraction. 

                    A nagging spouse is a distraction.  A back-seat driver is a distraction.  There are many things a driver can do that are distractions such as eating, rubber-necking, putting on make-up (yes, I've seen plenty of women driving and applying make-up), changing radio stations, etc.

                    Like I said before, Slippery Slope.

                    Exactly. I've also seen men shaving, and on one memorable occasion, a man reading the newspaper spread across his steering wheel while he drove down the freeway. That can't possibly be less dangerous or distracting than talking on the phone. I can completely get behind not allowing texting while driving, as well as requiring hands-free devices. But an outright ban is just stupid.
                     
                    Kids in the car are a distraction, period. Being in a car seat helps in that you don't worry about them ricocheting around like a pinball in case you have to stop quickly, but they talk. They whine. If they have toys they drop them (or throw them). They argue with each other. Who doesn't have a vacation road trip story about their mother having an extendable arm that could reach all the way into the back of a station wagon to slap whatever child is being obnoxious?
                     
                    For the record, when I was still driving, I would never send a text without pulling over. Receiving? Sure. But then it took my eyes off the road for less time than it takes to change the radio station (which is legal even under the new proposed ban). It's not that I'm defending some obscure concept of the "right" to use a phone while driving. I just cannot in good conscience even remotely consider it a good idea for there to be a law to essentially make a rule against stupidity. Who is really going to enforce it? When was the last time you heard of someone getting pulled over for being on their phone? The only time they know if someone was using their phone is AFTER the accident when they pull their phone records. Fat lot of good that does.
                     
                    #10
                      fishtaco

                      • Total Posts: 742
                      • Joined: 5/11/2010
                      • Location: Roachdale, IN
                      Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 3:41 PM (permalink)
                      I am one of those that hate cellphones period! A pox on mankind.
                       
                      #11
                        jman

                        • Total Posts: 1277
                        • Joined: 12/25/2007
                        • Location: berea, KY
                        Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 4:07 PM (permalink)
                        What about audio books?  You gonna concentrate on the book or concentrate on the road?  Slippery Slope.
                         
                        #12
                          KurtSara

                          • Total Posts: 181
                          • Joined: 5/6/2010
                          • Location: Central MN
                          Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 4:34 PM (permalink)
                          felix4067


                          I find myself wondering if they're going to ban all talking in cars, eating in cars, changing the radio station, drinking a soda, and using GPS as well.

                          Oh. Wait. GPS is exempt from the ban. Because it's FAR less dangerous to type in an address on a GPS unit and then look at the map it produces than to talk on a hands-free cell phone. 

                          Agreed, jman. Hard to stay neutral on this one. I get the problem, but I somehow doubt this is a solution.

                           
                          most built in GPS's are disabled when the car or motorcycle is moving. Most aftermarket GPS's are disabled when you buy them but you can change it after you buy it
                           
                          #13
                            felix4067

                            • Total Posts: 3306
                            • Joined: 12/13/2003
                            • Location: Near Grand Rapids, MI
                            Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 4:45 PM (permalink)
                            KurtSara


                            felix4067


                            I find myself wondering if they're going to ban all talking in cars, eating in cars, changing the radio station, drinking a soda, and using GPS as well.

                            Oh. Wait. GPS is exempt from the ban. Because it's FAR less dangerous to type in an address on a GPS unit and then look at the map it produces than to talk on a hands-free cell phone. 

                            Agreed, jman. Hard to stay neutral on this one. I get the problem, but I somehow doubt this is a solution.


                            most built in GPS's are disabled when the car or motorcycle is moving. Most aftermarket GPS's are disabled when you buy them but you can change it after you buy it

                            Really?? I have literally never been in a car with a GPS where it was disabled. Granted, I mostly am in taxis as most people I ride with in personal cars know where they're going, but it is more common to see a driver typing into the GPS while driving than it is to see someone on the phone. And probably 50% of the time they are decidedly NOT staying in their own lane while doing so.
                             
                            #14
                              DawnT

                              • Total Posts: 1286
                              • Joined: 11/29/2005
                              • Location: South FL
                              Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 4:53 PM (permalink)
                              KurtSara

                              most built in GPS's are disabled when the car or motorcycle is moving. Most aftermarket GPS's are disabled when you buy them but you can change it after you buy it

                              Really? Is that something new? I bought my vehicle last year and every model and brand we looked at the salesman made a point of showing off the navigation system during the test ride. On our vehicle, the only thing that gets turned off while in drive is DVD playback, but would still available to the headrest monitors if we had them while drivng presumably to amuse the passengers in the rear seat. What's the point of having a non-functioning navigation system while driving?
                               
                               
                              #15
                                Foodbme

                                • Total Posts: 9583
                                • Joined: 9/1/2006
                                • Location: Gilbert, AZ
                                Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 6:03 PM (permalink)
                                Having been almost hit numerous times by people driving and talking/texting on Cell Phones, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY support a ban.
                                28% of all accidents are caused by people on cell phones.
                                And that number is understated since it's sometimes hard to prove a cell phone was in use during an accident. The actual number is higher. Some estimates go into the mid-30's.
                                That number will only get higher as more young people get behind the wheel. They can't live without a cell phone in their hands. At least 28% PLUS of them will have a wreck and surely some of them will die with a cell phone in their hand. Hope it isn't one of your kids, grandkids, nieces or nephews. 
                                http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/12/AR2010011202218.html?sid=ST2010111805499
                                Believe it or not, it is possible to drive somewhere without a Cell Phone. We did it for decades!
                                <message edited by Foodbme on Wed, 12/14/11 6:10 PM>
                                 
                                #16
                                  chewingthefat

                                  • Total Posts: 6103
                                  • Joined: 11/22/2007
                                  • Location: Emmitsburg, Md.
                                  Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 6:11 PM (permalink)
                                  fishtaco


                                  I am one of those that hate cellphones period! A pox on mankind.

                                  Ditto!

                                   
                                  #17
                                    Foodbme

                                    • Total Posts: 9583
                                    • Joined: 9/1/2006
                                    • Location: Gilbert, AZ
                                    Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 6:15 PM (permalink)
                                    Dawn T,
                                    "More than 120 studies of cellphone use suggest that using hands-free devices doesn't eliminate the distraction caused by a phone conversation." - National Safety Board
                                     
                                    #18
                                      jman

                                      • Total Posts: 1277
                                      • Joined: 12/25/2007
                                      • Location: berea, KY
                                      Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 6:56 PM (permalink)
                                      Foodbme


                                      Dawn T,
                                      "More than 120 studies of cellphone use suggest that using hands-free devices doesn't eliminate the distraction caused by a phone conversation." - National Safety Board

                                       
                                      That may be accurate, but where does it all end?  I bet that a high percentage of accidents are caused by stupidity.  Some people who get into accidents are morons.  Should people be forced to pass some kind of situational testing before they are allowed to drive?  Has the National Safety Board ever done a study to show how kids in a car impact accidents?  How about studies on radio-listening?  The list of possible deleterious situations never ends.  
                                       
                                      #19
                                        Foodbme

                                        • Total Posts: 9583
                                        • Joined: 9/1/2006
                                        • Location: Gilbert, AZ
                                        Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 7:10 PM (permalink)
                                        Jman,
                                        You're right - You can't fix Stupid. You can however do things that limit the things that stupid people do. Deaths caused by Drunk Drivers are down as a result of Zero Tolerance and strict enforcement. The economics of the cost of being arrested and tried for Drunk Driving ranges from $10,000.00 to $20,000.00 depending on the State and the Degree of the offense. Even semi-smart people can understand that! The Two "E's" will reduce accidents - Economics and Enforcement.
                                        The third "E", Education, has only some minimal effect. 
                                         
                                        #20
                                          MilwFoodlovers

                                          • Total Posts: 3095
                                          • Joined: 3/31/2001
                                          • Location: Milwaukee, WI
                                          Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 7:17 PM (permalink)
                                          Slippery slope?
                                          How about the nanny state requiring you to use headlights at night? A clear windshield in winter? Working windshield wipers? Hell I'm in favor of mandatory testing to assure a man and a woman are smart enough to raise children before procreating.
                                           
                                          #21
                                            jeepguy

                                            • Total Posts: 1555
                                            • Joined: 3/29/2004
                                            • Location: chicago, IL
                                            Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 7:52 PM (permalink)
                                            I've had a couple of near-misses while playing with my phone so now i pretty much just pull off the road to to that stuff. But i still talk on the phone wherever. 
                                             
                                            #22
                                              mar52

                                              • Total Posts: 7609
                                              • Joined: 4/17/2005
                                              • Location: Marina del Rey, CA
                                              Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Wed, 12/14/11 9:32 PM (permalink)
                                              I think a very hot cup of coffee is also a thing to be feared in a moving car.
                                               
                                              That said, I've misseed many an accident involving someone else on a cell phone.  You have to drive more defensively because of them.
                                               
                                              I have no problem with the ban.  I do have a problem with the lack of enforcement here when it's already "against the law".
                                               
                                              #23
                                                Foodbme

                                                • Total Posts: 9583
                                                • Joined: 9/1/2006
                                                • Location: Gilbert, AZ
                                                Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 1:16 AM (permalink)
                                                Most people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, govened by the issuance of a License which can be revoked. It's not a "right" as some people think. Talking on a Cell Phone is reckless driving. Reckless Driving can be a cause for a license to be revoked.
                                                 
                                                #24
                                                  NascarDad

                                                  Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 4:21 PM (permalink)
                                                  felix4067


                                                  I find myself wondering if they're going to ban all talking in cars, eating in cars, changing the radio station, drinking a soda, and using GPS as well.

                                                  Oh. Wait. GPS is exempt from the ban. Because it's FAR less dangerous to type in an address on a GPS unit and then look at the map it produces than to talk on a hands-free cell phone. 

                                                  Agreed, jman. Hard to stay neutral on this one. I get the problem, but I somehow doubt this is a solution.

                                                  I am not even sure I get the problem that much.  Aren't highway deaths already at the lowest level since the 50s in raw numbers, and in per miles driven its the lowest number ever?  Or did NPR get that wrong?
                                                  I get it, fewer deaths is better than more deaths, but the optimal number is not zero - because the only way you get to zero related deaths  is to not go anywhere, period. 
                                                  I shall not go on, but man I could...  I will just shake my head sadly
                                                   
                                                  #25
                                                    NascarDad

                                                    Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 4:23 PM (permalink)
                                                    Foodbme


                                                    Most people forget that operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, govened by the issuance of a License which can be revoked. It's not a "right" as some people think. Talking on a Cell Phone is reckless driving. Reckless Driving can be a cause for a license to be revoked.

                                                    Talking on a cell phone is not reckless.  It is reckless only if you are being heedless, changing lanes wildly, not paying attention, etc.  And in that case the driver should  be arrested for doing those other things.
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    #26
                                                      Tony Bad

                                                      Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 4:51 PM (permalink)
                                                      NascarDad


                                                      Talking on a cell phone is not reckless.  It is reckless only if you are being heedless, changing lanes wildly, not paying attention, etc.  And in that case the driver should  be arrested for doing those other things.
                                                       

                                                       
                                                      Talking on the phone = not paying attention, so you DO agree it is reckless!
                                                       
                                                      #27
                                                        rumaki

                                                        • Total Posts: 968
                                                        • Joined: 3/1/2008
                                                        • Location: Minneapolis, MN
                                                        Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 6:38 PM (permalink)
                                                        Texting while driving is illegal in Minnesota.  Using cellphones is not (unless you're a driver under the age of 18).
                                                        Most of my own local driving is in the city or on the U of Minnesota campus (which is a story in itself).
                                                        Most of my highway driving occurs when I'm traveling to other cities/states for business or pleasure, or when I'm driving between Minneapolis and St. Paul.
                                                        I don't pretend any expertise here, but my anecdotal experience is that the "in town" use of cellphones is much more problematic than using them on highways.
                                                        City driving requires close concentration so that one can pay attention to the often unpredictable movements of pedestrians, cyclists, wild animals, etc. -- not to mention random hazards like potholes, double-parked cars, and so forth.  Plus there are stoplights and stop signs and intersections with pedestrian crossings all over the place.
                                                        In my experience, it's those kinds of things that make the distracted cellphone-using driver really dangerous.  He or she simply doesn't "see" them. 
                                                        For the record, I don't use a cellphone while driving.  If I need to use my cellphone, I pull over, or into a parking lot.  I'm not saying I'm particularly virtuous; I just know my own limitations.
                                                         
                                                         
                                                        #28
                                                          Foodbme

                                                          • Total Posts: 9583
                                                          • Joined: 9/1/2006
                                                          • Location: Gilbert, AZ
                                                          Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 7:30 PM (permalink)
                                                          NascarDad,
                                                          Talking on a cell phone while driving IS reckless.
                                                          You obviously have never followed someone talking and driving at the same time. They weave all over. They generally don't go the same speed as the traffic around them. They make last second left & right turns without signaling. WHY? Because they're DISTRACTED and focused on their conversations, not on driving correctly.
                                                          Street driving with amateur's on cell phones is more dangerous than making continous left turns on an oval track with other professional drivers at high speeds!. We need the kind of safety features found on NASCAR vehicles to be safe on the streets frequented by cell phone talker/drivers!! 
                                                           
                                                          #29
                                                            NascarDad

                                                            Re:NTSB Proposed Mobile Cellphone Ban Thu, 12/15/11 8:33 PM (permalink)
                                                            Foodbme


                                                            NascarDad,
                                                            Talking on a cell phone while driving IS reckless.
                                                            You obviously have never followed someone talking and driving at the same time. They weave all over. They generally don't go the same speed as the traffic around them. They make last second left & right turns without signaling. WHY? Because they're DISTRACTED and focused on their conversations, not on driving correctly.
                                                            Street driving with amateur's on cell phones is more dangerous than making continous left turns on an oval track with other professional drivers at high speeds!. We need the kind of safety features found on NASCAR vehicles to be safe on the streets frequented by cell phone talker/drivers!! 

                                                            I follow someone talking on a cell phone all the time.  Perhaps you only notice the ones who weave.  I talk on the phone, and somehow manage not to weave, nor have I been involved in any accidents or speeding tickets since I got a cell phone, and I commute over 70 miles round trip every day.  So I dare say I see a lot of drivers.   I see idiot drivers on cell phones, I see idiot drivers who dont have the excuse of a cell phone either.
                                                             
                                                            Having a conversation on a phone is no different than having a conversation with someone else in the car.   No reason we should be policing conversations in the car either. Or do we need to have silence monitors? 
                                                             
                                                            Did you know that when police see someone they want to pull over, they talk on their radio?  Yes it is true, by the time they have stopped you, they have already started the process of running your plate.  Are radios inherently less distracting than cell phones? Seems to me that would make it double unsafe, unless all of law enforcement is full of Uberminds capable of superhuman concentration that we mere peasants cannot ever hope to achieve.
                                                             
                                                             
                                                            #30
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