NYC Best Hot Dogs

Care to comment, New Yorkers?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/dining/25dogs.html?th&emc=th

Mr. Levine interviewed me for this article. I gave him much of the information about where the hot dogs come from (Marathon) as well as suggestions for places to try, including Syd's and Rutt's Hut. I haven't been to the Brooklyn Diner yet, but out of those named, I like Syd's better than the New York dogs. Out of the New York dogs that use Sabrett, Papaya King is consistently grilled to perfection and not undercooked. I though that I would be mentioned somewhere in the article.

It's a good read, but the only thing Mr. Levine has over our own John Fox is a better forum for disseminating his information, and a good buzz about himself owing to the recent book about pizza. When it comes to actual hot dogology, John Fox is head and shoulders above all pretenders.

You couldn't pay me to eat the monstrosity served up by the Brooklyn Diner. Even a 1/4 pound dog is too big.

Levine does have it right about how they should be prepared, a nice kosher style all beef dog grilled so the skin is crisp, served on a warm roll, either steamed or lightly toasted, with a spicy brown or deli style mustard.

Syd's in Union, NJ (visited on the 2004 Hot Dog Tour) is my favorite. Rutt's is not in this style dog, and Syd's beats Nathans, Katz's, Gray's, and Papaya King, although you can't beat the deal at the latter two, and Nathan's fries are still among the best.

Mr. Levine is also a writer; I'm not. And, not to nitpick here, but there were a few things that were incorrect. Mr. Levine mentions that there isn't one style of Jersey dog, which is correct. But then he goes on to say that the best examples of beef/pork dogs in Jersey are skinless. They're not. Galloping Hill Inn, Max's, Rutt's Hutt, and all the Texas Weiner places use dogs with casing. Only a few examples of West Jersey dogs, which I consider inferior, use skinless. And the dog pictured from Tommy's in Elizabeth is a natural casing dog. They use skinless for the Italian Hot Dogs, and natural casing for the regular ones.

I also disagree that Marathon adds an extra spice to the Papaya King dogs. I was told this by someone from Papaya King in response to an e-mail. A bigshot from Marathon, as well as other people who are in a position to know have told me that this isn't true. All minor points in an excellent and comprehensive article. I enjoyed reading it and speaking with Ed about hot dogs. It would have been nice to be mentioned or otherwise credited for the information that I gave him. I was interviewed and spoke at length with Ed a number of times.

As for the Brooklyn Diner, I haven't been able to find out the source of their dogs. I spoke with a few people there, but no luck. I think I'll try contacting some of the hot dog manufacturers who I think may make this dog. All I know is that it is made either in New York or very close.

Now is the time for all good Roadfooders to come to the defense of John Fox. Write, Email, phone, fax, or whatever the NYTimes and tell them that Mr Levine did a terrible wrong to our John Fox- the real hotdog guru.

I mean it. Let's bury the Times in the truth!!!

Cheers, John

John Fox - thanks for pointing out that the dog pictured had a casing. That threw me while reading...

Gee I just finished reading the Times article "It's All in How the Dog Is Served" by ED LEVINE
I don't understand why John Fox thinks that he should have been mentioned in this article. I believe most writers are going to "talk" to hundreds of people to gather information in a piece there writing.
I'm a hot dog love, I was born and raised in Manhattan and reading that Times peace about my beloved hot dog didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. Any one watching TV today will see all sorts of documentaries on hot dogs and the same info that was in the Times article was hashed over and over.
So I ask John Fox what's the beef?
And now this guy John Seafarer wants to bury the Times?

lol ..........one more thing for this my first entry into this Blog............ I lived in the City for over 60 years and I've eaten a million hot dogs almost one every day (I'm not kidding)......... my favorite is Grays Papaya because I live a 1/2 block away and as I emerge from the subway station each day I'll walk right passed Grays and I'll be damned I cant pass it without stopping in. I've been doing that ever since they opened and you know what Mr. John Fox? that Levine guy at the Times didn't mention me in his article either ,,,,,Oh the humanity!!!!
I'm Linda Again.........

Papaya King on 86th street and 3rd Avenue was always my favorite place because I thought it was the original papaya drink-hot dog stand. Grays Papaya can be very good but they don't have relish, which I love, and sometimes its just too crowded and dirty. Criff Dogs in the East Village is excellent and they have a lot of toppings other places don't have. I also love the classic New York City 'dirty water dogs' from the push carts with the yellow and blue Sabrett umbrella. YUM!

quote:

Originally posted by Lindaagain

Gee I just finished reading the Times article "It's All in How the Dog Is Served" by ED LEVINE
I don't understand why John Fox thinks that he should have been mentioned in this article. I believe most writers are going to "talk" to hundreds of people to gather information in a piece there writing.
I'm a hot dog love, I was born and rased in Manhattan and reading that Times peace about my beloved hot dog didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. Any one watching TV today will see all sorts of documentaries on hot dogs and the same info that was in the Times article was hashed over and over.
So I ask John Fox what's the beef?
And now this guy John Seafarer wants to bury the Times?

lol ..........one more thing for this my first entry into this Blog............ I lived in the City for over 60 years and I've eaten a million hot dogs almost one every day (I'm not kidding)......... my favorite is Grays Papaya because I live a 1/2 block away and as I emerge from the subway station each day I'll walk right passed Grays and I'll be damned I cant pass it without stopping in. I've been doing that ever since they opened and you know what Mr. John Fox? that Levine guy at the Times didn't mention me in his article either ,,,,,Oh the humanity!!!!
I'm Linda Again.........

It's not a big deal really, but I thought it would have been nice to be quoted or at least acknowledged. I did provide a lot of information that was used in the article. I doubt that Ed Levine talked to hundreds of people for this. He talked to me at length a number of times. And I disagree that the article didn't tell you anything that you didn't already know. I could be wrong, but I doubt that most people knew that Papaya King, Gray's, and Katz's used the same recipe hot dog. Or if they knew where some of the other places got theirs. It's not that I'm looking to see my name in the paper either. I've been contacted by other papers doing articles on certain hot dog places (which I didn't particularly care for) and was asked to say nice things about them. I declined because I didn't care for the hot dogs. As a result, I wasn't quoted or mentioned even though I was contacted and spent time talking about hot dogs, which I love talking about. That's why I post so much here.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the reporter. You don't know what was edited out of the story before it ran. Reporters rarely have control over the editing process on the New York Times, or at any other daily newspaper. The final call on what stays in and what goes ultimately rests with the section editor, who may not have appreciated how important a source Mr. Fox was for this article. - Rusty

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the reporter. You don't know what was edited out of the story before it ran. Reporters rarely have control over the editing process on the New York Times, or at any other daily newspaper. The final call on what stays in and what goes ultimately rests with the section editor, who may not have appreciated how important a source Mr. Fox was for this article. - Rusty

I thought the article was a little dissapointing, only because I pretty much knew all the places he mentioned. Usually when Levine (one of my favorite food writers) does an article for the Times, he finds some previously unknown gems. For example last year when he did hero sandwiches there were several places I had never heard of. Over the past year I've tried 3 or 4 of them, and they were all great. With the Hot Dog article, I didn't add anything to my "to Do" list. I learn much more from reading this Forum. --Ken

quote:

Originally posted by ken8038

I thought the article was a little dissapointing, only because I pretty much knew all the places he mentioned. Usually when Levine (one of my favorite food writers) does an article for the Times, he finds some previously unknown gems. For example last year when he did hero sandwiches there were several places I had never heard of. Over the past year I've tried 3 or 4 of them, and they were all great. With the Hot Dog article, I didn't add anything to my "to Do" list. I learn much more from reading this Forum. --Ken

Is there a link to that 'hero story' or can you give us a thumbnail of the places your liked?

everybody relax - the article made me go out and get a hot dog and that's all that matters

<<Is there a link to that 'hero story' or can you give us a thumbnail of the places your liked?

The Times only archives it free articles for about 2 weeks, so you're out of luck there.

I'm probably not supposed to turn this thread into a discussion of Hero places, but here's a few that he mentioned which were new to me:

Lioni, 7803 15th Avenue, Brooklyn. This one really got me, I grew up just about 5 blocks from there and never heard of this place until the article. Place is at least 75 years old. Extensive menu of take out heros. I hate to think of all the lousy heros I ate from various joints along 13th avenue in my youth, when I could have been going to Lioni's.

Clemente's - 130 Avenue T, Brooklyn. Maybe the best Hot Roast Beef Hero I've ever had.

Ba Xuyen - 4222 8th Avenue Brooklyn. A new treat for me, Vietnamese Heros. Very different, and terrific!

Hope this helps. ---Ken

quote:

Originally posted by Lindaagain

Gee I just finished reading the Times article "It's All in How the Dog Is Served" by ED LEVINE
I don't understand why John Fox thinks that he should have been mentioned in this article. I believe most writers are going to "talk" to hundreds of people to gather information in a piece there writing.

lol ..........one more thing for this my first entry into this Blog............

Allow me to point out two things.

First, this is not a "blog." This is a forum.

Second, as a former teacher and perpetual student of literature, I know the importance of citing sources lest one be charged with plagiarism. Had Mr. Levine quoted you without attribution in his article, you would have the right to be incensed.

Amen,Rick!!!

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Lindaagain

Gee I just finished reading the Times article "It's All in How the Dog Is Served" by ED LEVINE
I don't understand why John Fox thinks that he should have been mentioned in this article. I believe most writers are going to "talk" to hundreds of people to gather information in a piece there writing.
I'm a hot dog love, I was born and raised in Manhattan and reading that Times peace about my beloved hot dog didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. Any one watching TV today will see all sorts of documentaries on hot dogs and the same info that was in the Times article was hashed over and over.
So I ask John Fox what's the beef?
And now this guy John Seafarer wants to bury the Times?

lol ..........one more thing for this my first entry into this Blog............ I lived in the City for over 60 years and I've eaten a million hot dogs almost one every day (I'm not kidding)......... my favorite is Grays Papaya because I live a 1/2 block away and as I emerge from the subway station each day I'll walk right passed Grays and I'll be damned I cant pass it without stopping in. I've been doing that ever since they opened and you know what Mr. John Fox? that Levine guy at the Times didn't mention me in his article either ,,,,,Oh the humanity!!!!
I'm Linda Again.........

Let's back up just a bit. John never said he thought he should have been mentioned. He said he thought he would have been mentioned. As a guy who has been a reporter and editor for more than 40 years I must say that I am surprised he wasn't mentioned. I must also point out that your belief that a newspaper writer is going to talk to hundreds of people to gather information for a "piece there (sic) writing" is as far from the truth as it is possible to get.

It is obvious from this piece that the writer spoke with several people, but it is equally obvious that most of the information he presented relating to the origins, manufacture and recipes for the hotdogs used in the various places mentioned came from John, a recognized authority on the subject who has been the quoted source for a number of newspaper and magazine articles about hotdogs.

It is equally obvious from your post that in addition to having not the slightest idea how reporters and editors work, you also know very little about hotdogs.

Have a very nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

quote:

Originally posted by Lindaagain

Gee I just finished reading the Times article "It's All in How the Dog Is Served" by ED LEVINE
I don't understand why John Fox thinks that he should have been mentioned in this article. I believe most writers are going to "talk" to hundreds of people to gather information in a piece there writing.
I'm a hot dog love, I was born and raised in Manhattan and reading that Times peace about my beloved hot dog didn't really tell me anything I didn't already know. Any one watching TV today will see all sorts of documentaries on hot dogs and the same info that was in the Times article was hashed over and over.
So I ask John Fox what's the beef?
And now this guy John Seafarer wants to bury the Times?

lol ..........one more thing for this my first entry into this Blog............ I lived in the City for over 60 years and I've eaten a million hot dogs almost one every day (I'm not kidding)......... my favorite is Grays Papaya because I live a 1/2 block away and as I emerge from the subway station each day I'll walk right passed Grays and I'll be damned I cant pass it without stopping in. I've been doing that ever since they opened and you know what Mr. John Fox? that Levine guy at the Times didn't mention me in his article either ,,,,,Oh the humanity!!!!
I'm Linda Again.........

Let's back up just a bit. John never said he thought he should have been mentioned. He said he thought he would have been mentioned. As a guy who has been a reporter and editor for more than 40 years I must say that I am surprised he wasn't mentioned. I must also point out that your belief that a newspaper writer is going to talk to hundreds of people to gather information for a "piece there (sic) writing" is as far from the truth as it is possible to get.

It is obvious from this piece that the writer spoke with several people, but it is equally obvious that most of the information he presented relating to the origins, manufacture and recipes for the hotdogs used in the various places mentioned came from John, a recognized authority on the subject who has been the quoted source for a number of newspaper and magazine articles about hotdogs.

It is equally obvious from your post that in addition to having not the slightest idea how reporters and editors work, you also know very little about hotdogs.

Have a very nice day.

Lindagain
One must be careful when attacking ( disagreeing) with a prominent member of the Roadfood Community. The regulars will come after you with a vengence. You will also find that the majority of the regulars can't seem to come up with the $1.67 a month for membership to help support their site. (I'm going off to hide now)

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy2dogs
[br
Lindagain
One must be careful when attacking ( disagreeing) with a prominent member of the Roadfood Community. The regulars will come after you with a vengence. You will also find that the majority of the regulars can't seem to come up with the $1.67 a month for membership to help support their site. (I'm going off to hide now)

Is that the best you can do?

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy2dogs

One must be careful when attacking ( disagreeing) with a prominent member of the Roadfood Community. The regulars will come after you with a vengence. You will also find that the majority of the regulars can't seem to come up with the $1.67 a month for membership to help support their site. (I'm going off to hide now)

Tommy,

Was this your response? If so,it ended up in the message you were quoting. But I often disagree with said "prominent members." I just conceal my loathing behind a sweet, sweet smile.

Rick

Geez, Louise, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill! If I knew my comment would have generated controversy, I might have kept it to myself. What's funny is that, while I knew the article would appear Wednesday, I didn't know it would be posted online Tuesday. I did mention once on another thread that there would be an upcoming article on N.Y. hot dogs. At least 5 people e-mailed me on Tuesday telling me about the article. When I said that I knew about it, and in fact had spent a considerable amount of time talking with Ed Levine, they were all surprised that I wasn't mentioned or quoted. At the time, I didn't even read the article, thinking I would see it for the first time on Wednesday. All I knew was that the article would be about New York Hot Dogs, and that the gist of it would be that Marathon supplied the franks to many of the New York hot dog joints. I also knew a few other details.

As I said previously, I've been contacted before for articles about hot dogs due primarily to my posts being available on the internet and my fascination (my family says obsession) with hot dogs. I freely share information and opinions and I don't care if anyone uses or repeats anything I say here. And I enjoy speaking with people about hot dogs and corresponding by e-mail. I have no problem with The New York Times or Ed Levine. In fact, The Times did a very nice article about me 2 summers ago. The article focused primarily on my interest in hot dogs. So I wasn't expecting to hear from them again. But I was contacted by Mr. Levine a few months ago. Every time that I was contacted in the past, with the exception being when I wouldn't say something favorable about a hot dog that I didn't like, I was at the very least acknowledged. This time, although I gave out more information, including some that took me a great deal of effort to obtain, I wasn't. Which is fine. All I said, if you look at the past post, is that I thought I would be mentioned somewhere in the article. I won't be losing any sleep over it.

Ah, why don't you just go deliver a letter or something.

WOW! you boys play pretty rough................ I'll have to try to behave and watch my P's and Q's ............ Gosh boys can you ever find it in your hearts to forgive me?................... Linda

I thought the saying was "boys with their toys." Maybe "boys with their hot dogs...."

Mr Hoffman

Isn't it wonderful when someone with "no standing" gets to lecture us on something. Apparently your 40 years of experiences trumps my 30 plus years of experience.

At issue here is the NYTimes, not the relative "status" or personality of any of our members.

More specifically, the problem is the Times Food section which has slid way downhill in the past few years. Frankly, I find it a bore on most Wednesdays. When they started giving space to that busty , loud, and tasteless Englishwoman a while back I thought they had hit bottom- but no, they then promoted Azimov to chief wine writer - a disaster if there ever was one.

As I said previously, the Times Food section has a blatant elitist attitude- if you are a "nobody" (even if you have gained great knowlwdge in your area) you are not worthy of a credit, if you are wellborn, wellconnected, wellschooled, your name comes up in 12 point bold type.

A case in point is the infamous GA Pig. Some well connected yuppies started a faux "old South" BBQ joint and the Times fell all over itself to promote the place. The fact is; the food is mediocre, the attitude borders on felonious, the service stinks, and the place is best described as backwoods kitschy.

Once I used to regularly clip interesting recipes from the Food section. I don't think I've found one recipe worth clipping in the past six months. They too often call for hard to find ingredients, exotic tools, and fussy preparation.
They have lost touch with this reader, and I don't think I'm alone.

So, why do I still read it? Perhaps masochism, or an inability to quit a bad habit, or maybe just because it is an institution I love to hate. If it wasn't for Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, and Frank Rich I don't think I would keep my subscription.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by CCJPO


Mr Hoffman

Isn't it wonderful when someone with "no standing" gets to lecture us on something. Apparently your 40 years of experiences trumps my 30 plus years of experience.

Is that sort of like, I'll see your 30 and raise you ten?

quote:

Originally posted by ken8038

<<Is there a link to that 'hero story' or can you give us a thumbnail of the places your liked?

The Times only archives it free articles for about 2 weeks, so you're out of luck there.

I'm probably not supposed to turn this thread into a discussion of Hero places, but here's a few that he mentioned which were new to me:

Lioni, 7803 15th Avenue, Brooklyn. This one really got me, I grew up just about 5 blocks from there and never heard of this place until the article. Place is at least 75 years old. Extensive menu of take out heros. I hate to think of all the lousy heros I ate from various joints along 13th avenue in my youth, when I could have been going to Lioni's.

Clemente's - 130 Avenue T, Brooklyn. Maybe the best Hot Roast Beef Hero I've ever had.

Ba Xuyen - 4222 8th Avenue Brooklyn. A new treat for me, Vietnamese Heros. Very different, and terrific!

Hope this helps. ---Ken

Thanks Ken.

This place is getting as nutty as eGullet.

quote:

Originally posted by seafarer john

If it wasn't for Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, and Frank Rich I don't think I would keep my subscription.

Cheers, John

Those three would be enough for me to cancel my subscription.