Need advice fast on propane

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cue
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2014/03/26 13:46:04 (permalink)

Need advice fast on propane

I have to give the fire department the amount of propane I want to be able to carry.  Their City ordinance is that I can only possess 1- 20lb(5 gal) bottle of propane.  This will not work for me.  Here are my btu requirements 220,500btu.  Im running 2 fryers, 36 griddle, 2 burner stove, 3 full pan warmer all on propane.  Ive already used the search button and I am in a bit of a time crunch.  They need to know today so that it can get on the agenda for monday or else Im out another month.  I tried running on 2 40 lb tanks.  It didnt work I dont think I had enough vapor.  Do I really need 2- 100lb tanks as I originally planned?  I do not think the city will go for that, that is why I tried the 2-40lb tanks.  Thank you in advance for any advice and help
#1

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    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 14:11:53 (permalink)
    Below is the vaporization rates for different sizes of tanks.   Much depends on the outside temperature.   But the short answer is NO; the 20lb tank will not work for your loads.    ... Get a copy of the ordinance and read it for yourself.    Food trailer & trucks can't operate off of a 20lb tank like a 'hotdog cart'.    You should be able to use any DOT tank.   

    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/26 15:00:49
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    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 14:50:57 (permalink)
    ok.  another thing is that the company mounted the propane cage on the back bumper.  they are telling me that I cannot mount my tank of any size on the back bumper.  But I see alot of food trucks with the propane mounted this way?  I really think that I am going to need 2- 100lb tanks to run my truck properly.  Are there many people running their truck with that much propane?  They are acting like I am wanting to manufacture a bomb or something.
     
    #3
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 15:02:07 (permalink)
    cue

    ok.  another thing is that the company mounted the propane cage on the back bumper.  they are telling me that I cannot mount my tank of any size on the back bumper.  But I see alot of food trucks with the propane mounted this way?  I really think that I am going to need 2- 100lb tanks to run my truck properly.  Are there many people running their truck with that much propane?  They are acting like I am wanting to manufacture a bomb or something.


     
    Are these in your city?
    #4
    Midnights
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 15:03:06 (permalink)
    Yes, the vast majority of propane using trucks I've seen have 2 100lb tanks, and they are mounted on the back.
    That said, you are in a sticky situation. Their law is their law. You can work to change the ordinance, but that will take a while. I do know some food trucks that have had to go that route to do what they wanted to do. I have known others who had to change their business model to fit with the code. Some build their trucks so that they can begin operating now, while they also work to change a law.
    If you want to change the ordinance, find the ordinances of as many other municipalities that you can that allow the 2 100lb tanks. This will show them that other municipalities already allow it, and will give them some verbiage they can crib from in crafting a new ordinance. Good luck.
    #5
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 15:11:33 (permalink)
    No, these are not in my city.  Im really the first in this area for a food truck.  There are some Food trailers, but they can operate off of the 20 lb tank
    #6
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 15:15:11 (permalink)
    Thank you.  If anyone can steer me to cities that they operate in that allow 2- 100lb tanks I would appreciate it.  I'll start looking at the major metropolitan areas.
    Midnights

    Yes, the vast majority of propane using trucks I've seen have 2 100lb tanks, and they are mounted on the back.
    That said, you are in a sticky situation. Their law is their law. You can work to change the ordinance, but that will take a while. I do know some food trucks that have had to go that route to do what they wanted to do. I have known others who had to change their business model to fit with the code. Some build their trucks so that they can begin operating now, while they also work to change a law.
    If you want to change the ordinance, find the ordinances of as many other municipalities that you can that allow the 2 100lb tanks. This will show them that other municipalities already allow it, and will give them some verbiage they can crib from in crafting a new ordinance. Good luck.


    #7
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 15:31:11 (permalink)
    As I suggested, get a copy of the Code and read it.   The way you stated it; no one can use LP gas as fuel for their vehicle; or even transport any tank larger than 20lbs. 30, 40 & 100lb tanks has to be transported to a suppler to be refilled (????).     ...  Check the code to see if ASME tanks are allowed as opposed to the DOT tanks.  ASME tanks are the permanently mounted tanks (horizontal) on trucks.  So if the code restricts the portable DOT tanks then you might be able to mount ASME tanks under your truck.  (???)
    Is this ordinance specifically for 'Food' vendors?   If so, then you are in position to argue the ordinance is un-reasonably selective against this type of business.
     
    Is there a link to this ordinance/code?
    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/26 15:39:04
    #8
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 17:05:09 (permalink)
    Ive read the code.  There is nothing that relates to food vendors here because there has never been any mobile food vendors.  Nobody within city limits can even have a propane tank connected to their house unless Natural gas is unavailable.  Here is the link to the code that pertains to propane.  I talked to the Oklahoma Liquid Propane Gas administration, this is who governs the sale and transportation of propane here.  And they told me that there is no issue with mounting the tanks on the back bumper and there is no issue with me having 2-100lb tanks per DOT law.  I also did not see anything that pertained to ASME tanks or DOT tanks, but Ill look again.  Again thank you for the help. 
    edwmax 

    As I suggested, get a copy of the Code and read it.   The way you stated it; no one can use LP gas as fuel for their vehicle; or even transport any tank larger than 20lbs. 30, 40 & 100lb tanks has to be transported to a suppler to be refilled (????).     ...  Check the code to see if ASME tanks are allowed as opposed to the DOT tanks.  ASME tanks are the permanently mounted tanks (horizontal) on trucks.  So if the code restricts the portable DOT tanks then you might be able to mount ASME tanks under your truck.  (???)
    Is this ordinance specifically for 'Food' vendors?   If so, then you are in position to argue the ordinance is un-reasonably selective against this type of business.

    Is there a link to this ordinance/code?


    #9
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 19:51:00 (permalink)
    So what section of that code restricts you to one 20 lb DOT tank?   ... I don't see it.    May be the Fire Marshal is working with a different Code????
    #10
    RodBangkok
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 20:10:27 (permalink)
    Make sure you are asking for and then review any regulations, don't take the word of some petty bureaucrat, always challenge anyone stating something that they cannot back up with a reference to the proper section in the code.
    #11
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 20:15:42 (permalink)
     3.     Residential use of above ground tanks for the storage of LPG shall be limited to one (1) portable tank five (5) gallons or smaller.

     
    Im sorry I thought the link would take you directly to the code specific about propane.  On the left pane click the charter and code of ordinances drop down box,  and it is within chapter 8 section 8-4
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    Michael Hoffman
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 20:26:30 (permalink)
    cue

     3.     Residential use of above ground tanks for the storage of LPG shall be limited to one (1) portable tank five (5) gallons or smaller.


    Im sorry I thought the link would take you directly to the code specific about propane.  On the left pane click the charter and code of ordinances drop down box,  and it is within chapter 8 section 8-4

    But a food truck isn't a residence, so how would this provision affect your food truck?

    #13
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 20:49:34 (permalink)
    Thats what I said.  But they said that the way the code reads is that: no one is allowed to have propane UNLESS it is a 20lb bottle for residential use.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 21:01:49 (permalink)
    Michael Hoffman

    cue

    3.     Residential use of above ground tanks for the storage of LPG shall be limited to one (1) portable tank five (5) gallons or smaller.


    Im sorry I thought the link would take you directly to the code specific about propane.  On the left pane click the charter and code of ordinances drop down box,  and it is within chapter 8 section 8-4

    But a food truck isn't a residence, so how would this provision affect your food truck?

     
    Ditto   ... That section does not apply to any 'mobile food unit'. be it truck, trailer, or hotdog cart.     ... And, as far as residential use for LP tank, bury the tank.   ... Further, I'll bet most of the Residences with gas Barque grills have more than one tank in violation of the Code.
     
    As far as going straight to the 'propane', I looked for a section pertaining to 'mobile food unit' or food vending and equipment requirements (I wasn't going to read the entire code).  ... There is none!  ... Other than dealing with Code 'A-holes', you appear to be home free.   Check your State requirements.   ....
    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/26 21:03:19
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    Michael Hoffman
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 21:12:14 (permalink)
    You're in Weatherford? That's a really nice town, with a terrific steakhouse -- T-Bone Steakhouse.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/26 21:28:59 (permalink)
    cue

    Thats what I said.  But they said that the way the code reads is that: no one is allowed to have propane UNLESS it is a 20lb bottle for residential use.

     
    This is the section the Fire Marshal is referring to:
     
       2.     No container, tank-truck, or receptacle of any kind or nature containing such products shall be placed, parked, left, or permitted to remain within the city except for purposes of, and only for such time as may be necessary in making deliveries for use within the city.   (hummm ... 'deliveries' is not specially defined   ... could be argued as 'food deliveries' and lp gas used for cooking ???  )
     
    But you can apply for variance under this section:
     
    5.     There shall be granted an exception to the current restrictions on the size and location of LPG gas containers within the Weatherford city limits, where natural gas service is not currently available. In such instances, upon request having been made to the Weatherford City Inspector's office, and approval granted by the City Inspector's office and the Weatherford Fire Marshal's office, above ground LPG containers up to two hundred fifty (250) gallons may be permitted at a distance of no closer than twenty-five (25) feet from a structure or property line.
     
    Natural gas is not available to your truck and 20lb tanks will not work for you.
    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/26 21:36:51
    #17
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/27 07:21:42 (permalink)
    edwmax-  This is where I am at with them.  They will not permit me to operate within the city.  Ill have to wait a month until the next city council meeting.  I believe they are wrong in not letting me operate but I do not know if it is worth bringing a lawyer into it yet.  I am a Deputy Sheriff full time and I am trying to keep a good working relationship with the Fire Department, since we have to work together quite often.
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    BelCibo
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/27 08:18:55 (permalink)
    So RVs are not allowed in Weatherford?  Some have multiple 5 gallon tanks all the way up to 200lb tanks mounted underneath, and they are used to cook food.
     
    #19
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/27 09:02:54 (permalink)

    •  You are not a 'residence'.
    • You are a business, then Section 8-4 (6) applies for 'retail-use'.
    Section 8-4(5) states 'There shall be granted an exception to the current restrictions on the size and location of LPG gas containers ...' up to 250 gals tanks, where Nat-Gas can not be used.   This is not exactly a choice of the Fire Marshal and you may have to go to the City Commission to enforce it.
     
    I think you have a bigger problem under section 5, article 6 "Peddling'.
    • License:  5-71, 3:    One day $100, then $50 for every 10 days.  (???)   *** Looks like you need to establish a fixed business (may at home) & address as a 'Catering Service' to get out of the "Peddling' definitions & following restrictions. ???  This is not difficult for "Mobile Food' vendors.
    • 5-69: Can not park for more than 30 minutes. (public ???)   ... (use private property by permission or lease ?)
    5-72: 'No part of the regulations relating to peddling shall be construed to apply to any person selling any goods, wares, and merchandise when the same is being sold outside the fire limits, ...'   ... not sure how this would effect or help you?????
     
    #20
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/27 15:12:28 (permalink)
    They are not going to give me any trouble on the sales permit once I get the blessing from the Fire department. They are going to charge $10 a year for a sales permit. And it also be parked for up to 12 hrs in one spot before it has to be moved. It will become a city council issue. That was the initial emergency part of the post. To get my ducks in a row quickly to get on the agenda for monday but im not going to make it. So it will have to wait till next month. I'll sell in some other cities until then
    #21
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/27 15:44:48 (permalink)
    Get those conditions in writing.   ... As far as the LP tank issue, your ducks are in a row.  Your are not a 'residence', but a business using commercial grade equipment (not a BBQ grill).  Thus, Section 8-4(5) automatically grants an exception up to 250 gal tank since you can not use Nat-gas.
    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/27 15:50:44
    #22
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/28 08:26:57 (permalink)
    edwmax-  I have been doing some reading on making sure my propane system is efficient.  I saw where you had responded to most of them.  What I currently have is typical BBQ regulators that connect to my tanks and then connect to a tee and then 3/4" black pipe into the truck.  Each of their max btu is 110,000 or 125,000.  There were also high flow prevention couplings installed where my individual appliance flex lines made there connections to my manifold inside of the truck.  Not sure if that term is right.  But they were small brass couplings that if the gas flow was too high they would close.  They came with my yellow flex lines.  Anyway, I removed those.  And I also removed the regulators (external) that were attached at the back of my 36" griddle and 2 burner stove.  Both of those appliances operate at 10 w.c.  Im thinking that the bbq regulators are not sufficient.  I should be able to put a regulator at the back at 11 w.c. and be fine right?  Just a higher btu?  I have also seen where people have put a regulator that takes it to 10psi and  then another regulator that takes it to 11 w.c.  I do not understand the need for this (if I even need it for my application)  If I do, does it matter where one regulator is compared to the other? Distance? or inside the truck or outside?  Other then the 10 psi is first?  Also what about the size of the hose or line from the regulator to my 3/4" main line? Im wanting to say that the hoses on there now are 5/8".
     
    I really appreciate the help.  We are going to have our first opening next wednesday.  In a city other than Weatherford.
     
    #23
    edwmax
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/28 12:07:54 (permalink)
    Look at this thread for info. http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/LP-line-installation-in-concession-trailer-m773424.aspx
     
    Just like a water line, more pressure = more flow.   3/4" pipe @ 10psi = 3.800K BTU (<= 30ft); 3/4" pipe @ 2psi = 1,300K BTU (<=30ft);  3/4" pipe @ 11"WC = 250K BTU (<=10ft).
    post edited by edwmax - 2014/03/28 13:42:59
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    bellehill
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/28 14:40:19 (permalink)
    item  2 sounds like a federal dot haz mat ruleing to keep bulk delivery trucks out of town.  you are a mobile food service.
    edwmax

    cue

    Thats what I said.  But they said that the way the code reads is that: no one is allowed to have propane UNLESS it is a 20lb bottle for residential use.


    This is the section the Fire Marshal is referring to:

      2.     No container, tank-truck, or receptacle of any kind or nature containing such products shall be placed, parked, left, or permitted to remain within the city except for purposes of, and only for such time as may be necessary in making deliveries for use within the city.   (hummm ... 'deliveries' is not specially defined   ... could be argued as 'food deliveries' and lp gas used for cooking ???  )

    But you can apply for variance under this section:

    5.     There shall be granted an exception to the current restrictions on the size and location of LPG gas containers within the Weatherford city limits, where natural gas service is not currently available. In such instances, upon request having been made to the Weatherford City Inspector's office, and approval granted by the City Inspector's office and the Weatherford Fire Marshal's office, above ground LPG containers up to two hundred fifty (250) gallons may be permitted at a distance of no closer than twenty-five (25) feet from a structure or property line.

    Natural gas is not available to your truck and 20lb tanks will not work for you.


    #25
    cue
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    Re:Need advice fast on propane 2014/03/29 22:51:29 (permalink)
    It tested out fine today on 2 40lb tanks after removing the bbq regulators (replaced with a home 450,000 btu regulator), the regulators on the back of the equipment and the high flow safety pieces.  We are going to have or first sale next wednesday and expect everything to run fine.  Ill have to see how it runs next winter.  At least I know I can run off of at minimum 2 40 lb tanks.  I appreciate the help.
    #26
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