New England or New York Chowder

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leethebard
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2007/10/01 15:47:41 (permalink)

New England or New York Chowder

Here in south Jersey we just had a Chowder cook off. Evenly divided between red and white. I prefer White, with a drizzle of hot sauce in it San Francisco style...and thoughts, favorites..or variations on the two?
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    divefl
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 15:58:30 (permalink)
    white. And for the reds, Maryland crab over Manhatten clam.
    #2
    Brookerme
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 15:59:57 (permalink)
    Red isn't part of the equation in New England. I'm partial to Rhode Island style (like grandme made) made without cream or milk only broth.
    #3
    bakman_01570
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 16:05:42 (permalink)
    I make a pretty mean maryland crab and corn chowder...cream based...

    Does that count?
    #4
    billyboy
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 16:07:28 (permalink)
    New England all the way, baby! Manhattan clam chowder=vegetable soup with clams.
    #5
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 16:22:19 (permalink)
    White and clear are chowders. Red is soup.
    #6
    Greyghost
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 17:10:35 (permalink)
    Manhattan don't know from chowder...to use the local idiom.

    If you believe Manhattan clam chowder is real clam chowder, you may as well travel to Bar Harbor, Maine to see a real Broadway play.

    The level of disappointment would be the same.
    #7
    seafarer john
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/01 18:00:05 (permalink)
    I've always been partial to the creamy New England style clam chowder (or for that matter, any creamy fish chowder) over the Manhattan (tomatoy) style. But, in recent years, I've been assaulted with so-called New England clam chowder that is artificially thickened (with, perhaps,that alga they use to thicken cheap ice cream) and comes out with a texture a lot like the library glue we used to love to eat in kindergarten. I'm careful where I order my clam chowder now-a-days, and I frequently find that , outside New England, one is better off ordering the Manhattan style - even if it is basically just a vegetable soup with clams. So what's wrong with a well made vegetable soup?

    Cheers, john
    #8
    lleechef
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 02:22:59 (permalink)
    For me it's creamy New England every time. I actually don't like the red, I think the clams get tough. For tomato-based soup I do like fish soup and Portuguese fisherman's soup.
    #9
    wmceaton
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 06:27:13 (permalink)
    As stated White=Chowder & Red=Soup.
    Love chowder with some Texas Pete's, crackers & freshly ground pepper...nothing better in my opinion.
    #10
    RibRater
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 10:10:17 (permalink)
    chowder...soup...fish...clam...crab....new england...manhattan...maryland...red...white...tomato...vegetables...texas pete..tabasco...crackers...


    it's all good to me....bring it on.
    #11
    wanderingjew
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 10:26:35 (permalink)
    Everyone keeps referring to Rhode Island style chowder as clear chowder, however according to the Stern's it's actually "Southern New England Style Chowder. Rhode Island style is actually red chowder (no vegetables) with a dash of cream. Manhattan Chowder tends to be spicier than this type of chowder
    #12
    saps
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:01:09 (permalink)
    Chowder is just a subcategory of soup, from what I can tell. And the Manhattan chowder has the same consistency of the Rhode Island chowder, so what is the difference besides the tomato base.
    #13
    wanderingjew
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:05:28 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by saps

    Chowder is just a subcategory of soup, from what I can tell. And the Manhattan chowder has the same consistency of the Rhode Island chowder, so what is the difference besides the tomato base.


    Rhode Island chowder is a little thicker
    Manhattan chowder is a deep red color. RI Chowder which doesn't have any vegetables in it (other than potatos) is a dark orange color
    #14
    qwerty79
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:36:10 (permalink)
    I prefer lobster or seafood bisque over any chowder any day. But I still like New England style clam chowder, even though I'm originally from Long Island where most places serve Manhattan style chowder. Everyone keeps saying Manhattan style is just vegetable soup with clams in it. It's kinda hard to explain but manhattan clam chowder is'nt just vegetable soup with clams in it. When it's made well, it's pretty good.
    #15
    Paulie
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:46:56 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by wanderingjew

    Everyone keeps referring to Rhode Island style chowder as clear chowder, however according to the Stern's it's actually "Southern New England Style Chowder. Rhode Island style is actually red chowder (no vegetables) with a dash of cream. Manhattan Chowder tends to be spicier than this type of chowder


    That's an interesting note. I've spent all my life in southeastern CT and RI and have never seen red chowder referred to as Rhode Island style; in my experience, anything called Rhode Island chowder is the clear broth kind.

    Have you, or anyone else, actually been served a red, Rhode Island chowder (and if so, where), or are you basing this only on the Stern's definition?
    #16
    Ashphalt
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:53:36 (permalink)
    I've seen old Yankee and RI chowder recipes that do not use tomatoes and I've had RI chowders without tomatoes. IMO when they are present they should be firm pieces and not cooked down so that they color the broth a deep red.

    Growing up I was told that tomatoes in RI chowder were a "new" thing (i.e. early-mid 20th Century) probably from the strong Italian influence in RI.

    Manhattan style can be a good seafood soup, but it doesn't cut it as chowder in my book and once you've had a good Portuguese seafood stew or a good bouillabaise Manhattan chowder tastes like tomato soup.

    As for thickener, I agree with seafarer john. I think most commercial chowders use too much flour or roux (or other things like corn starch) to thicken and whiten. Chowder should be thickened with potatos, only.
    #17
    wanderingjew
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 11:56:21 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Paulie

    quote:
    Originally posted by wanderingjew

    Everyone keeps referring to Rhode Island style chowder as clear chowder, however according to the Stern's it's actually "Southern New England Style Chowder. Rhode Island style is actually red chowder (no vegetables) with a dash of cream. Manhattan Chowder tends to be spicier than this type of chowder


    That's an interesting note. I've spent all my life in southeastern CT and RI and have never seen red chowder referred to as Rhode Island style; in my experience, anything called Rhode Island chowder is the clear broth kind.

    Have you, or anyone else, actually been served a red, Rhode Island chowder (and if so, where), or are you basing this only on the Stern's definition?


    I'm basing it on the Stern's definition. However everything about the red chowder I've been served here in Rhode Island is totally and competely different than the Manhattan Style Chowder I've been served in NY in terms of taste, texture, color and ingredients. I've seen clear chowder throughout the entire Southeast coast of Southern Connecticut (east of Branford)
    #18
    Glazoo
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 12:12:20 (permalink)
    I've always known Rhode Island clam chowder to be a clear broth based chowder. I have also made some with chopped tomatoes fresh from the garden and it was a big hit.
    #19
    wanderingjew
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 13:15:17 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Paulie

    Originally posted by wanderingjew


    Have you, or anyone else, actually been served a red, Rhode Island chowder (and if so, where), or are you basing this only on the Stern's definition?


    Hopefully this might clear up some of the confusion

    www.projo.com/cgi-bin/include.pl/summer/recipes/chowders/chowderindepth.htm
    #20
    Ashphalt
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 13:19:43 (permalink)
    I wouldn't be surprised if many RI chowders now have tomato. For much of the last century the most popular chowder in the state was probably that from the Rocky Point amusement park and included a canned tomato product (as well as savory herbs, sand, bits of seaweed and whatever leftovers from diners' plates the teenaged staff threw in). My old Yankee and RI families refused to consider that to be chowder.

    If you think about food history, though, tomatoes have a very brief season in New England while fresh clams and fish were available virtually year-round on the coast. Chowder, like a lot of old New England cooking, would typically rely on cold storage vegetables like onions and potatos, along with salt pork or butter. Some old recipes used common crackers or pilot crackers (not saltines) as a thickener. In season cooks might add fresh vegetables, but they would not be core to a chowder.

    Add.: Nice article WJ. Our posts crossed so I hadn't read it before posting this. BTW, my family also didn't consider Rocky Point chowder to be food. It was in the same category as NY System wieners, something forbidden you learned about from the bad kids.
    #21
    ann peeples
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/02 19:50:12 (permalink)
    I actually like what I have known as "Manhatten Clam Chowder" a term I grew up with as a child of the 50s, 60s.It is a red broth based soup much like minesrone but with clams.I also love a good "New England" cream based chowder.But the best, IMO, is a wonderful Lobster, shrimp or crab bisque, which in my experience seems to be a tad thinner than a chowder.lleechef-am I on the right track? Or totally off base...
    #22
    enginecapt
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/07 00:55:51 (permalink)
    Gimme the Manhattan style every time. But I won't turn down the white stuff if served a bowl.
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    mjambro
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/08 18:04:24 (permalink)
    I've been living in RI for the past seven years and have not yet come across a stated RI style that contains tomatoes. Best I can tell, RI style is New England style without the cream / milk - better yet half and half (or NE style is RI style with cream / milk added). Some places stock the RI style and add half & half or milk when ordered to make a NE style. About the only way to ruin a NE style is to thicken via corn starch, etc vs cream or half & half.
    #24
    wanderingjew
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2007/10/08 18:29:19 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by mjambro

    I've been living in RI for the past seven years and have not yet come across a stated RI style that contains tomatoes. Best I can tell, RI style is New England style without the cream / milk - better yet half and half (or NE style is RI style with cream / milk added). Some places stock the RI style and add half & half or milk when ordered to make a NE style. About the only way to ruin a NE style is to thicken via corn starch, etc vs cream or half & half.


    I guess the Sterns are wrong then. All I know is whatever it is you want to call it, the "red chowder" which is served here in Rhode Island tastes and looks absolutely nothing like the Manhattan Clam Chowder that is served in New York
    #25
    leethebard
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2008/02/11 05:25:14 (permalink)
    Just looked at this old thread. Boy could I predict the Super Bowl back in October!!!!
    #26
    NYNM
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2008/02/11 08:42:20 (permalink)
    Well why can't we have both?
    However, to me, "chowder" means white (corn chowder, etc) and red is more like cioppinno, bouliabasse, etc. but just as good. Depends on my mood.
    #27
    wheregreggeats.com
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2008/02/11 10:23:13 (permalink)
    Hey if they want to call it chowder in NYC thats fine there is no egg in an egg cream ...

    Meanwhile, I prefer white and as with the OP (so long ago) a shot of hot sauce is essential.

    #28
    NYNM
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2008/02/11 11:34:31 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by wheregreggeats.com

    Hey if they want to call it chowder in NYC thats fine there is no egg in an egg cream ...

    Meanwhile, I prefer white and as with the OP (so long ago) a shot of hot sauce is essential.




    Or cream. So maybe the cream is in the chowder instead
    #29
    leethebard
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    RE: New England or New York Chowder 2008/02/17 14:36:39 (permalink)
    Now that the super bowl is over and we Giant fans are done saying "I told you so" over and over again, I got to confess...I actually prefer New England Clam Chowder...just add a splash of Hot sauce!
    #30
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