Perfect Pizza?

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Michael Hoffman
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2005/02/22 18:09:09 (permalink)

Perfect Pizza?

Take a look at this from USA Today. Chicago pizza Bad. Northeastern pizza Good.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-21-pizza-main_x.htm
#1

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    carlton pierre
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/22 18:20:02 (permalink)
    Michael, I don't usually read these linked posts, but I did this one and I am glad I did. I would love to go to NYC and have some pizzas from this guy and also hear about what he thinks the good roadfood type places are in the city. The guy sounds like an artist.
    #2
    carlton pierre
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/22 18:29:05 (permalink)
    Michael, like this site because I find out about a lot of neat, interesting places I would probably not know about. And I would think that with our legions of posters that someone would have found out about this place in NYC. I'm always stunned when USA Today or some other publication finds out about these interesting places before we do here.
    #3
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/22 18:31:03 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by carlton pierre

    Michael, I don't usually read these linked posts, but I did this one and I am glad I did. I would love to go to NYC and have some pizzas from this guy and also hear about what he thinks the good roadfood type places are in the city. The guy sounds like an artist.


    I hope you noticed that there are three pizzerias on his list from my home town, New Haven.
    #4
    markolenski
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/22 18:51:15 (permalink)
    What a minute it's my home town. Oh I forgot I moved to San Diego and left you in charge. Sorry
    #5
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/22 19:02:54 (permalink)
    Heck, I've been gone from New Haven since 1965, getting back just every once in a while.
    #6
    michaelgemmell
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 15:10:42 (permalink)
    It took me less than 10 minutes to google some interesting facts about this author and his book. First of all, the book cannot be imported into Canada. I didn't discover why. Most importantly, the author is a New York City native who lives in Manhattan.

    This suggests to me that the author is engaged in promoting his home region, using pizza as a tool. As a native Illinoisan now living in San Francisco, I'm afraid you're going to find nearly an entire nation who will have a good laugh at New Yorkers' expense. We're all so glad that you like your home turf best. We're all so glad you stick with "your own kind" when you visit Phoenix. When the New Yorkers visit San Francisco, they're so careful to visit places that they assume are "just like New York" that all the best places--and all the natural environment we so treasure that New Yorkers reject--are left for us to enjoy. So, while I find the author's comments to be insulting, if it keeps snobs out of Chicago pizzerias and Muir Woods, it's AOK with me.

    My brother, who still lives in Chicago, makes wonderful deep dish pizza. When in Italy, he tried the Italian street food that's distantly related to the American dish, pizza, and said it wasn't very good, while he loved other Italian food.

    Michael, posting that article was fine. Still, did you intend to insult Chicagoans and their pizza?
    #7
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 15:33:40 (permalink)
    I certainly did not intend to insult Chicagoans, or their tomato casseroles.
    #8
    Tommy2dogs
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 20:09:11 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    Take a look at this from USA Today. Chicago pizza Bad. Northeastern pizza Good.

    http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-21-pizza-main_x.htm


    Let's see, a NY native food writer,(is Levine Italian) who is trying to sell books, claims NY has the best pizza along with other east coast establishments, with Phoenix thrown in for those who winter there. What a surprise.

    And once again comparing any thin crust pizza to deep dish is like comaring apples to oranges.
    #9
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 20:28:03 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Tommy2dogs

    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    Take a look at this from USA Today. Chicago pizza Bad. Northeastern pizza Good.

    http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-21-pizza-main_x.htm


    Let's see, a NY native food writer,(is Levine Italian) who is trying to sell books, claims NY has the best pizza along with other east coast establishments, with Phoenix thrown in for those who winter there. What a surprise.

    And once again comparing any thin crust pizza to deep dish is like comaring apples to oranges.

    I don't think he's Italian. But it wouldn't matter. As to those casseroles from Chicago, well, it's not apizza. Didn't Betty Crocker invent those Chicago things?
    #10
    michaelgemmell
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 20:54:27 (permalink)
    Here's what I found at foodreference.com, similar to what I read elsewhere. I copied and pasted:

    DEEP DISH PIZZA

    Italians started coming to Chicago from Italy during the 1850s, by the 1940's there was a significant Italian population of Italian immigrants and their descendants. Many had been successful in the restaurant and bar businesses.

    There are some stories about U.S. soldiers of Italian descent returning from Europe after World War II and experimenting with different pizza recipes, and eventually creating deep dish pizza. The only problem with these stories is that deep dish pizza was being sold in Chicago in the early 1940's, before the end of the war.

    The one story that is probably true is about a man named Sewell (maybe originally from Texas) who created the deep dish pizza in 1943 at his bar and grill, Pizzeria Uno. It was so popular that he soon opened another place called Pizzeria Due. Soon other restaurants were serving deep dish pizza, including several opened by former employees of Sewell. (A former employee of Pizzeria Uno, Rudy Malnati claims to have created the original deep dish pizza too) Deep dish pizza became popular with more and more people, and soon Chicago became known for creating it. Everyone, not just Italians adopted it as a 'Chicago' food.

    Sorry, Michael, no mention of Betty Crocker. Also, I don't think that Chicago Deep Dish Pizza is what most Americans think of as a casserole. I'm sorry you don't care for it.
    #11
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 21:39:22 (permalink)
    Michael, I'm familiar with the history of deep-dish whatever you want to call it. And, you are wrong when you suggest that I don't care for it. I like it almost as much as a good tuna-noodle casserole.
    #12
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 21:53:17 (permalink)
    My Dear Ms Peachpie,

    I have been in love with Betty Crocker for more that 60 years. Unfortunately, she has changed in time, and I'm not sure she still feels the same way about me as I do about her. Nevertheless, her involvement in the development of Chicago's signature casserole is, I'm sure, not one of her proudest achievements. As a matter of fact, 12 years ago, while talking over a cup of coffee at the Duchess Diner on Chapel Street in New Haven after a great clam pie at Frank Pepe's, she admitted to me that she wished she'd never become involved in the development of the so-called Chicago style deep-dish pizza casserole. If if recall correctly she said that it was not one of the things that she even wanted anyone to know about. Betty was always honest about herself, and about the things she did. She told me that her employer had insisted that if she wanted to keep her job she would have to say nice things about deep-dish pizza because it was important to the marketing of the company's flour.

    I forgave her. I understood.
    #13
    Spudnut
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/23 23:42:15 (permalink)
    Levine is most assuredly not Italian. He's extremely well-known here (in NYC). I've never known him to write about other places. So, even if he believes he's being objective, there's likely an inevitable bias.

    Di Fara is talked about a lot here; nothing obscure about it. I haven't had a chance to get there yet despite my strong desire to, which is why I haven't written about it. - I have no chance to get to Brooklyn during the week, and my wife has no interest in that kind of thing on our Saturday night out. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    #14
    sizz
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 01:53:12 (permalink)
    Pizza- Shmizza what's the dif ??.............. it's only a word like "soup" Manhattan clam chowder, New England clam Chowder one white one red and five thousand different versions of both. The word "Pizza" is to broad to write a review and claim one better then the other. Chicago pizza, New Your pizza two completely different renditions of a word (and only a word) ............... I like them both and as a matter of fact My wife Linda and I traveled all the way to Chicago last fall just to have it's bench mark deep dish so we would know what the real McCoy was like. .............. It was very good it was not New York. it's a black and white thing........ take a look at Linda with our deep dish at Pizzeria UNO ...........



    #15
    UncleVic
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 03:32:19 (permalink)
    fpczyz, It sure looks like Pizzeria UNO was not shy on the fresh mushrooms and green peppers! Looks like a tasty pie for sure, but still personally I'm for the thinner (original) style crust. But then on the other hand, if we didnt have variety available to us, this thread would be pretty boring! And the New Yorker would be lacking a space filling story...


    #16
    Wallyum
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 03:44:36 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    quote:
    Originally posted by Tommy2dogs

    quote:
    Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

    Take a look at this from USA Today. Chicago pizza Bad. Northeastern pizza Good.

    http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2005-02-21-pizza-main_x.htm


    Let's see, a NY native food writer,(is Levine Italian) who is trying to sell books, claims NY has the best pizza along with other east coast establishments, with Phoenix thrown in for those who winter there. What a surprise.

    And once again comparing any thin crust pizza to deep dish is like comaring apples to oranges.

    I don't think he's Italian. But it wouldn't matter. As to those casseroles from Chicago, well, it's not apizza. Didn't Betty Crocker invent those Chicago things?


    Shoot. You beat me to the punch. I was going to ask if it was true that Chef Boyardee was the most revered pizza chef on the east coast.
    #17
    carlton pierre
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 06:20:05 (permalink)
    If I'm not mistaken I think Chef BoyarDee lived in Cleveland, OH
    #18
    Wallyum
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 06:47:12 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by carlton pierre

    If I'm not mistaken I think Chef BoyarDee lived in Cleveland, OH


    So what's your point? That's east of Chicago.
    #19
    efuery
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 09:13:18 (permalink)
    So then, which city would make a better chili pizza? Chicago Or New York. Would it have beans on it? How about those BBQ pizzas, which sauce is better? NC style, Texas??

    #20
    Spudnut
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 09:23:38 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by fpczyz

    Pizza- Shmizza what's the dif ??.............. it's only a word like "soup" Manhattan clam chowder, New England clam Chowder one white one red and five thousand different versions of both. The word "Pizza" is to broad to write a review and claim one better then the other. Chicago pizza, New Your pizza two completely different renditions of a word (and only a word) ............... I like them both and as a matter of fact My wife Linda and I traveled all the way to Chicago last fall just to have it's bench mark deep dish so we would know what the real McCoy was like. .............. It was very good it was not New York. it's a black and white thing........ take a look at Linda with our deep dish at Pizzeria UNO ...........







    I happen to prefer the East Coast version, but I agree that we're talking about two very different styles of pizza -- both of which I believe can be excellent. It's almost like comparing fried chicken to roasted chicken: they're both chicken, and you might prefer one to the other, but they're really different categories.
    #21
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 09:36:32 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by efuery

    So then, which city would make a better chili pizza? Chicago Or New York. Would it have beans on it? How about those BBQ pizzas, which sauce is better? NC style, Texas??



    Ah, you haven't lived till you've tasted Donato's new Smokehouse version of pizza with barbeque sauce. On the other hand, not having lived is better than having tried Donato's new Smokehouse version.
    #22
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 09:37:55 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by carlton pierre

    If I'm not mistaken I think Chef BoyarDee lived in Cleveland, OH

    You are not mistaken. Chef Hector Boiardi did live in Cleveland and had a restaurant there.
    #23
    tiki
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 09:53:04 (permalink)
    So---where do you think i should set up my new shop selling deep dish chilli bean pizzas with white sauce and clams!
    #24
    Michael Hoffman
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 10:28:23 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by tiki

    So---where do you think i should set up my new shop selling deep dish chilli bean pizzas with white sauce and clams!

    Well, as I live in Ohio, I guess Oklahoma's as good a place as any.
    #25
    berndog
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 11:24:56 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by carlton pierre

    Michael, like this site because I find out about a lot of neat, interesting places I would probably not know about. And I would think that with our legions of posters that someone would have found out about this place in NYC. I'm always stunned when USA Today or some other publication finds out about these interesting places before we do here.


    Carlton, I have thought about this before and wonder if this is because of the syndrome where we become blind to the great things in our backyard, because we are so used to them. If you always had great food from one of places featured in these articles, you may not realize how great it was since there was nothing of lower quality to compare it to.

    We have a wonderful pizzaria nearby, used to be John's Pizza, but they changed the name to Pizzaria Americana, probably so they weren't confused with Papa John's. I love their pies, we usually get one every week, and I can ask for thin crust if that's how I want it. I wonder how they would stack up against the best in the "Northeast Pizza Belt." Maybe some day Michael and Jane Stern will be passing through Rochester and I can get them to stop by and offer an unbiased opinion.
    #26
    tiki
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2005/02/24 14:29:36 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by berndog

    quote:
    Originally posted by carlton pierre

    Michael, like this site because I find out about a lot of neat, interesting places I would probably not know about. And I would think that with our legions of posters that someone would have found out about this place in NYC. I'm always stunned when USA Today or some other publication finds out about these interesting places before we do here.


    Carlton, I have thought about this before and wonder if this is because of the syndrome where we become blind to the great things in our backyard, because we are so used to them. If you always had great food from one of places featured in these articles, you may not realize how great it was since there was nothing of lower quality to compare it to.

    We have a wonderful pizzaria nearby, used to be John's Pizza, but they changed the name to Pizzaria Americana, probably so they weren't confused with Papa John's. I love their pies, we usually get one every week, and I can ask for thin crust if that's how I want it. I wonder how they would stack up against the best in the "Northeast Pizza Belt." Maybe some day Michael and Jane Stern will be passing through Rochester and I can get them to stop by and offer an unbiased opinion.


    There is no such thing as an UNBIASED OPINION!
    #27
    johns72604
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    RE: Perfect Pizza? 2006/01/31 16:01:37 (permalink)
    I recently went to DI Fara, and regardless of where in this fine country it resides, it is so damn good it made me sick (because I ate about 4 slices and a square).
    #28
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