LockedPhilly Cheesesteak

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PapaJoe8
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 16:32:46 (permalink)
My question from p. 6... was there once a spicy Cheese Wiz?
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 16:33:12 (permalink)
Davydd

The history of foods and origination have often gone into the ether of debate. It seems the cheesesteak has more solid documentation.

 
Documentation, but shakey documentation. As demonstrated by the two conflicting accounts of the origins of cheese and cheez whiz on a Philly steak, by the son of the originator of the sandwich! Someone needs to have him set the record straight once and for all, before he passes away. Maybe he doesn't even know for sure since this all happened such a long time ago.
 
Added - it looks like the NPR link I posted says the interview was with Frank Olivieri Sr., and the one from Bruce was quoting Frank Olivieri Jr. (Harry's grandson) But still, you have two people who are descended from one of the co-founders of the Philly cheesesteak telling different stories. I wonder if Frank Sr. is still alive.
Davydd
The basis of the cheesesteak is spreading around the country with local interpretations. If the cheesesteak is on the menu with the traditional ingredients most bar/grill/restaurants might say "Philly" but often will only use the "cheesesteak" word if derivative with say Swiss or gouda. I've now had cheesesteak sandwiches with bison and caribou. I have also had cheesesteak sandwiches with mozzarella cheese. I haven't had chicken though I have seen it.


I agree that if you vary from the Philly formula, just call it a cheesesteak and leave the Philly out. I don't even know how we got on this Whiz tangent. I can't believe that some people would defend processed Swiss slices on a "Philly" would dare take a stab at Whiz.
 
Since my wife likes chopped chicken/cheese hoagies, I think I may try to thinly slice partially frozen boneless thigh meat, then cook it up with olive oil, onions, mushrooms and (of course) top it with Whiz. It's gotta be better than those chopped/formed/frozen cardboard sheets!
post edited by TrentonDog - 2010/08/29 17:08:29
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 16:38:12 (permalink)
PapaJoe8

My question from p. 6... was there once a spicy Cheese Wiz?
Joe


I think there was in the nineties. They have "Tex-Mex" Whiz, probably the same stuff all "Bobby Flayed" up with a new name.
 
 
PapaJoe8
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 17:10:03 (permalink)
TD, thanks! I remembered a "spicy" or? "hot" Cheese Wiz. Hey, it was good stuff! Hmm, I wonder if there is a Cheese Wiz history somewhere?
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 17:25:25 (permalink)
Maybe this is the stuff? (note the different variations at the end)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxgUN1KmNSc
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 18:41:01 (permalink)
Davydd

Michael Hoffman

CheeseWit

I've spoken to Frank Oliveri many times, as well as other long-time steak shop owners in the Philly area. Believe it or not, there seems to be a common fact expressed by each of them about the addition of cheese to a steak sandwich: it didn't happen until the 1940's. So, for about 10 to 15 years it was only known as a steak sandwich.
Provolone and American were the first cheeses added (seems to be dependent upon Philadelphia neighborhood. In other words, provolone was used in the Italian neighborhoods, American in the others.).

By the 1950's, Pat's was establishing itself as the leader because of multiple locations in Philadelphia (South Philly, West Philly, Strawberry Mansion). A Kraft salesman presented the new Cheez Whiz product to the Oliveris and sold them on the idea of cutting down on the time it took to make a cheesesteak. With heated Cheez Whiz, you could apply it to the steak sandwich and voila!, a cheesesteak in about 4 seconds additional time than a plain steak sandwich.

Pat's was the first to use Cheez Whiz on a steak sandwich. This is the fact that other steak shop owners agree on.

Very interesting. Thanks. You're my go-to expert on this subject.


Very true the interesting part. Cheez Whiz is 58 years old now. We grew up with it - the modern food. I think maybe oleo predated it. Anything else?

The history of foods and origination have often gone into the ether of debate. It seems the cheesesteak has more solid documentation. The basis of the cheesesteak is spreading around the country with local interpretations. If the cheesesteak is on the menu with the traditional ingredients most bar/grill/restaurants might say "Philly" but often will only use the "cheesesteak" word if derivative with say Swiss or gouda. I've now had cheesesteak sandwiches with bison and caribou. I have also had cheesesteak sandwiches with mozzarella cheese. I haven't had chicken though I have seen it.


The History of Oleo - Margarine: Source - Google -  "History of Oleo"
1870
Margarine was created by a Frenchman from Provence, France -- Hippolyte Mège-Mouriez -- in response to an offer by the Emperor Louis Napoleon III for the production of a satisfactory substitute for butter. To formulate his entry, Mège-Mouriez used margaric acid, a fatty acid component isolated in 1813 by Michael Chevreul and named because of the lustrous pearly drops that reminded him of the Greek word for pearl -- margarites. From this word, Mège-Mouriez coined the name margarine for his invention that claimed the Emperor’s prize.
post edited by Foodbme - 2010/08/29 18:43:55
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 18:49:35 (permalink)
PapaJoe8

TD, thanks! I remembered a "spicy" or? "hot" Cheese Wiz. Hey, it was good stuff! Hmm, I wonder if there is a Cheese Wiz history somewhere?
Joe


Cheez Whiz was invented in 1951 by Kraft lab technicians charged with creating a processed cheese product that would melt easily, without breaking down into oils. It was launched in 1952 in America and in Canada, and sold in jars with metal lids.

(Copyright 2010 Practically Edible. All rights reserved and enforced.) Read more of this snippet here : [link=http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/cheezwhiz#ixzz0y2PjEQve]http://www.practicallyedi...heezwhiz#ixzz0y2PjEQve[/link]

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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 19:28:34 (permalink)
Cheese Whiz is lower in fat than "real" cheddar cheese and American Cheese.

Eat healthy - Wiz Wit!


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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 19:33:19 (permalink)
FoodB, interesting history link but no mention of the USA varieties available in the past.
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 19:58:51 (permalink)
PapaJoe8

FoodB, interesting history link but no mention of the USA varieties available in the past.
Joe

Joe,
I found several references to a a spicy Whiz but nothing current. It was called "Cheesz Whiz Chile Con Queso" They must have discontinued it. As you probably know, Cheez Whiz is nothing more than a re-formulated Velveeta. I make a spicy dip using Velveeta and Rotel. I suppose you could make it with Cheez Whiz as well. You wouldn't need to melt it!
TrentonDog
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 20:18:03 (permalink)
A few drops of hot chili oil stirred into the Cheese Whiz should do the trick for some "spicy" Cheez Whiz.
post edited by TrentonDog - 2010/08/29 21:31:01
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 22:04:01 (permalink)
Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/29 22:16:24 (permalink)
billy, did you ever make the blue or pepperjack  variations?
here's a question. How important are onions? Are they always yellow? White?
What about Red or Sweet? 
post edited by bill voss - 2010/08/29 22:19:23
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 07:45:45 (permalink)
bill voss

billy, did you ever make the blue or pepperjack  variations?
here's a question. How important are onions? Are they always yellow? White?
What about Red or Sweet? 


I Bill, I haven't got a chance to buy some Blue cheese yet. I have been using Walla Walla sweets, whites are good, red onion, yellow......For the business I use the cheapest, of course the more sweet the better. I have to buy a small amount of blue cheese at the store, I have to buy in larger quantities through my Food service company.......................Are you starting to feel the chill in the air the last few says ??????????? Take care...................Bill
post edited by BillyB - 2010/08/31 06:52:45
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 07:57:42 (permalink)
BillyB

I Bill, I haven't got a chance to buy some Blue cheese yet. I have been using Walla Walla sweets, whites are good, red onion, yellow......For the business I use the cheapest, of course the more sweet the better. I have to buy a small amount of blue cheese at the store, I have to buy in larger quantities through my Food service company.......................Are you starting to feel the chill in the are the last few says ??????????? Take care...................Bill


I thought "talk like a pirate day" was Sept. 19th? :)
 
 
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 08:30:02 (permalink)
TrentonDog, like me is from New Jersey and is familiar with popular regional foods here like hot dogs, cheesesteaks, pizza, pork roll, etc. I think the question is whether you can consider a certain regional food authentic or not. Authentic may not be good, inauthentic may not be bad.

You can do whatever you want to a cheesesteak; just don't add swiss or linberger to it and cal lit an authentic Philly style cheesesteak. It ain't. One made like they do in Philly with cheese wiz added is authentic. You may or may not like it, but it is Philly style. I happen to love wiz on my steaks. I only tried it a few years ago to see what it would be like since it's so popular in Philly; especially at Pat's, who invented the cheesesteak.

People outside of North Jersey make what they call an Italian Hot Dog. It doesn't even come close to resembling a traditional Newark style Italian Hot Dog.

Davydd is the person on this board who is the expert on Pork Tenderloin sandwiches. I'm sure outside of the midwest someone somewhere has made a sandwich and called it a Pork tenderloin. And Davydd would probably laugh and say it isn't real or authentic. I remember him correcting someone and saying what they thought was a pork tenderloin sandwich was not because they used something other than pork tenderloin. Walleye? or something similar?

The point I'm making is that when something is a popular regional food, there is a sort of pride that comes with it from the people who make and enjoy the food. People take seriously what they like and what matters to them. You can think outside the box or innovate all you want. But if you do that, then call it your take on a cheesesteak, or Italian Hot Dog, or a pork tenderloin sandwich. Don't try to redefine something that was created by someone else and has stood the test of time.
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 09:18:11 (permalink)
HI John Good post, The thing about using the name Philly Cheese Steak is, people know the name "Philly" why not give my customers a head start, on something that may be a "familiar sandwich" ??? I'm not even calling it a" Authentic Philly cheese Steak" If it helps me give my customers a chance to want to try one, it's a close enough comparison. We are using Ribeye, Amoroso rolls and Swill American cheese, you think we are screwing with, and changing the sandwich that much that we are fooling our customers???????? I will give my customers a better quality, and cheese of their choice. The bul-sh-t that people have to eat whats given to them because thats just the way it is is for followers. I perter to be a leader and do whats best for my customer. I didn't become successful in the food business by doing what everyone else does...........Don't they also serve the Philly with American and provolone cheese, how many" Authentic"  ways are they serving this sandwich..............I think if we were servings a Bologna hoagie with Monterey Cheese, may be a stretch to call it a Philly......
post edited by BillyB - 2010/08/30 10:20:29
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 15:27:34 (permalink)
"I prefer to be a leader and do whats best for my customer."

That's fine. And you may even be succesful if the people where you are located like your particular version of a cheesesteak. But what if they don't? What if they want a traditional Philly cheesesteak? I would imagine that you would cater to them because you're in business to make money, and what good is it if your creations aren't liked or requested? Just as long as people know what they're getting.

The Italian Hot Dog, by way of example, is popular in a few counties in Jersey. Mostly north. A lot of people have moved from north to central and south Jersey. One guy from Newark opened an Italian Hot Dog restaurant in central Jersey. Many of the people who wandered in when he opened were originally from the Newark area. The first thing these people asked upon entering the restaurant for the first time was, "Do you serve the Italian Hot Dog on pizza bread?" The answer was yes. These same people told the owner that if they didn't use pizza bread (considered authentic/traditional) they would have walked out.

When something is popular, loved, and sought out, people don't want it reinvented. Especially if they are from the region where the particular food originated.
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 15:28:06 (permalink)
Michael Hoffman

Oleo certainly predates it. I remember oleomargerine (In Connecticut then oleo came in a bag with a color bead. The oleo was white and you had to break the bead and squeeze the bag to mix in the color.) when I was a little kid, and that was long before 1953 when Cheese Whiz first hit the market.

When I was a kid in New Mexico, my dad told me that oleo was white because ranchers wanted people to know they weren't getting butter when they bought it. The coloring was there as a compromise. I don't remember a bag (I was thinking maybe a tub), but that makes sense. Butter came in short, fat ¼-lb. sticks that you could buy individually; my mom always kept one in the refrigerator, guarded jealously against childish depredations.

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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 16:26:23 (permalink)
John Fox

"I prefer to be a leader and do whats best for my customer."

That's fine. And you may even be successful if the people where you are located like your particular version of a cheesesteak. But what if they don't? What if they want a traditional Philly cheesesteak? I would imagine that you would cater to them because you're in business to make money, and what good is it if your creations aren't liked or requested? Just as long as people know what they're getting.

The Italian Hot Dog, by way of example, is popular in a few counties in Jersey. Mostly north. A lot of people have moved from north to central and south Jersey. One guy from Newark opened an Italian Hot Dog restaurant in central Jersey. Many of the people who wandered in when he opened were originally from the Newark area. The first thing these people asked upon entering the restaurant for the first time was, "Do you serve the Italian Hot Dog on pizza bread?" The answer was yes. These same people told the owner that if they didn't use pizza bread (considered authentic/traditional) they would have walked out.

When something is popular, loved, and sought out, people don't want it reinvented. Especially if they are from the region where the particular food originated.


Hi John, I lived in Ct for 26 years and know what the Eastern seaboard is like. If my customers came to me and asked for Whiz, I would provide it, if the demand was from more than a few. I'm offering this cheese because most people in the PNW don't know sh-t from Shinola about most foods back East. With me giving the food item a name like Philly, or New York Pizza, Coney Island dog, and so on, it gives them an idea of something different, something they may be able to associate with. If some one asked if they are 100 percent just like you get in Philly, I would say no. I would tell them most of the people in that area that sell Philly cheese Steaks will use Ribeye, Italian crusty rolls and either Provolone or Cheese Whiz. I use this cheese because it melts well and we use it for Roast beef and swiss melts, Reuben's and on Chicken sandwiches. Why go out a buy another cheese just to use on one item on my menu. ...........I am answering this question after I thin cut an Eggplant salted the slices, and draining off the liquid on some paper towels. Do I need to say what I'm making ?????????????   I learned many years ago, when I make out a menu its only to point my customer in a direction, they will tell me if its the right direction....
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 16:37:41 (permalink)
Rick F.

Michael Hoffman

Oleo certainly predates it. I remember oleomargarine (In Connecticut then oleo came in a bag with a color bead. The oleo was white and you had to break the bead and squeeze the bag to mix in the color.) when I was a little kid, and that was long before 1953 when Cheese Whiz first hit the market.

When I was a kid in New Mexico, my dad told me that oleo was white because ranchers wanted people to know they weren't getting butter when they bought it. The coloring was there as a compromise. I don't remember a bag (I was thinking maybe a tub), but that makes sense. Butter came in short, fat ¼-lb. sticks that you could buy individually; my mom always kept one in the refrigerator, guarded jealously against childish depredations.

 
Mr. Hoffman's description is correct. When Oleomargarine first came out there was a fierce campaign launched by the butter producers to discredit the Oleo people. Oleo became used more during WWII because Butter was rationed. That's when it started to be used more.
post edited by Foodbme - 2010/08/30 16:38:43
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 16:48:36 (permalink)
BillyB 

...... I use this cheese because it melts well and we use it for Roast beef and swiss melts, Reuben's and on Chicken sandwiches. Why go out a buy another cheese just to use on one item on my menu. ...........


Well that's not being a leader, it's being a bean counter and using what you already have rather than stocking the correct ingredients. I don't get it, you want to try bleu cheese or pepperjack, you don't stock bleu cheese or pepperjack in your cafeteria so you'd have to buy it in quantities if you decided to use it on your "Philly". So why not buy a case of Cheez Whiz (50 bucks?)  and see if your customers like it. The rest of your ingredients are authentic (the rib eye and Amoroso rolls), so why not go the extra mile and do your customers right by offering them a real Philly. Hell, Joey Vento the owner of Geno's steaks in South Philly has never had a cheesesteak with Whiz, but says it his his best seller. He's being the professional by giving his customers what they want, even though he personally doesn't like it.
 
I don't particularly like cheese or chili on a hot dog (my favorite is kraut and mustard), but kraut isn't popular here and the chili/cheese dogs are the best sellers. FWIW, I don't use Whiz - I use ChefMate sharp cheddar sauce. Pretty much the same thing. Luckily, it doesn't have to be Whiz to go on a hot dog. They'd string me up by my ............
 
 
 
post edited by TrentonDog - 2010/08/30 16:49:37
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 16:59:53 (permalink)
BillyB

Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................


Carls Jr. is a poor example to go by, why would you ever cite a fast food joint as an example? They put the word "Philly" on a cheeseburger with some shredded meat and swiss cheese? Sounds like the work of a clueless marketing team trying to use up some surplus material.
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 18:15:33 (permalink)
TrentonDog

BillyB

Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................


Carls Jr. is a poor example to go by, why would you ever cite a fast food joint as an example? They put the word "Philly" on a cheeseburger with some shredded meat and swiss cheese? Sounds like the work of a clueless marketing team trying to use up some surplus material.

really? Carl's/ Hardee's is clueless?
You need to get out of NJ, Snookie.
 YouTube - We Don't Do That - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.

and:
 YouTube - It Came From Philly - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.
post edited by bill voss - 2010/08/30 18:18:36
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 18:24:05 (permalink)
bill voss

TrentonDog

BillyB

Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................


Carls Jr. is a poor example to go by, why would you ever cite a fast food joint as an example? They put the word "Philly" on a cheeseburger with some shredded meat and swiss cheese? Sounds like the work of a clueless marketing team trying to use up some surplus material.

really? Carl's/ Hardee's is clueless?
You need to get out of NJ, Snookie.
YouTube - We Don't Do That - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.

and:
YouTube - It Came From Philly - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.

 
Fantastic marketing Bill, steal the "Philly" name and then ridicule the region that they are ripping off. Only on the left coast. That's thinking outside the (jack in the) box! (I didn't know Swiss was yellow..... even the stop action animation guys know what's up....)
 
Hope you enjoy them out there. Too bad you can't get the "real thing" out west. You don't know what you're missing.
 
(BTW - Philadelphia is not in NJ - snookie does not apply)
 
 
 

 
post edited by TrentonDog - 2010/08/30 18:28:51
TrentonDog
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 18:49:32 (permalink)
Just trying to lighten up the mood a little with this Jack in the Box sirloin burger commercial......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34RdLUDiZc
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 18:50:34 (permalink)
bill voss

TrentonDog

BillyB

Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................


Carls Jr. is a poor example to go by, why would you ever cite a fast food joint as an example? They put the word "Philly" on a cheeseburger with some shredded meat and swiss cheese? Sounds like the work of a clueless marketing team trying to use up some surplus material.

really? Carl's/ Hardee's is clueless?
You need to get out of NJ, Snookie.
YouTube - We Don't Do That - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.

and:
YouTube - It Came From Philly - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.


Good one Bill 
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 18:59:16 (permalink)
BillyB

bill voss

TrentonDog

BillyB

Looks like Carl's Jr put a Philly CheeseSteak Burger on their menu. They serve it with melted American and Melted SWISS. I wonder why they didn't use the Authentic and Traditional Cheese in a Can...............Go figure........Looks like they would rather serve a better cheese................


Carls Jr. is a poor example to go by, why would you ever cite a fast food joint as an example? They put the word "Philly" on a cheeseburger with some shredded meat and swiss cheese? Sounds like the work of a clueless marketing team trying to use up some surplus material.

really? Carl's/ Hardee's is clueless?
You need to get out of NJ, Snookie.
YouTube - We Don't Do That - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.

and:
YouTube - It Came From Philly - Philly Cheesesteak Burger at Carl's Jr.


Good one Bill 


Yep - so Carl's Jr./Hardees is your inspiration, no surprise. Cafeteria food. It's no wonder there isn't one near Philly and not one in NJ.
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 19:07:45 (permalink)


Yep - so Carl's Jr./Hardees is your inspiration, no surprise. Cafeteria food. It's no wonder there isn't one near Philly and not one in NJ.

It's Carl's Jr. in the West & Hardees in the East. You'll probably never see a Carl's in the East--- but never say never!
I'd like to have a Hardee's out here. Love their biscuits!
TrentonDog
Double Cheeseburger
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  • Location: Trenton Area, NJ
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Re:Philly Cheesesteak 2010/08/30 19:14:49 (permalink)
Foodbme

It's Carl's Jr. in the West & Hardees in the East. You'll probably never see a Carl's in the East--- but never say never!
I'd like to have a Hardee's out here. Love their biscuits!

Pretty much the same menu, different name. I see that Hardee's had a similar "Philly" burger a few years ago. Last time I saw a Hardee's was in Delaware. Which seems to be the cutoff line.
 
One fast food place I miss is Roy Rogers. There are still a few around, and one in Trenton. Love the biscuits and fried chicken! They haven't tried to sell a roast beef/burger with Swiss and pass it off as a "Philly" yet........
 
 
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