Pop Culture, The Media and the profound effect it has on Roadfood trends.

This is a continuation of an ongoing discussion from this thread which has really gone off course from the original trip report so I thought I would start a new thread.

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Wandering-Around-NY-NJ-CT-May-2009-m512986-p3.aspx

On the roadfood digest, there was an interesting blog about a new book which I hope to get called Food of a Younger Land.

http://www.roadfooddigest.com/post/2009/05/26/Is-American-Food-Dead.aspx

Yes, I am one of those who do believe that traditional roadfood is dieing although I still think it can be saved but it's up to everyone, not just me.

From my own personal observations and in my opinion there are certain parts of the country where traditional roadfood is alive and well.
Coastal New England,  Working Class/ Blue Collar  Mid Atlantic, the RURAL south, the Working Class/Blue Collar Great Lakes/Rust Belt, the Southern Midwest (although this is open to scrutiny because the Fried Chicken Houses in KC and Indianpolis are all but gone) , the Southwest and of course Texas.  However there are other parts of the country specifically  Western New England, The Northern Midwest and The Mountain States where it seems that the last nail has all but nailed that coffin shut. Again these are my observations. Why these areas and not others I don't know....I do know that Texans are very egocentric hence that could be the reason why tradtional roadfood is alive and well there. The southwest has a large Mexican population with many new (and old) immigrants...So those could be some of the reasons why.

Why do posters like Davydd tear his hair out and insist that traditonal roadfood where he lives either never existed or is just a  "a joke" played on out of staters and instead offers plates of Pad Thai or Pho????

There are a few reasons.....

One obviously being the Walmallification of America. In some parts of the country, Applebees and Chilis have replace the local farm house cafe so they can now "be like everyone else. Why it's effect certain parts of the country moreso than others? I don't know.

The other reason is pop culture.. specifically TV, the Media, the Internet etc.

Back in the 60's there were alot of rural style TV Shows. IE. Green Acres and The Beverly Hillbillies- basically these shows tried to make city folks (ie from LA and NYC) appear as snooty blowhards  etc....In the 70's shows like All in the Family and Sanford and Son actually were about folks who lived in the city, but it featured, crime, blight, and pollution, even though these shows were comedies and are classics, when it came down to it they were just down right depressing  Even cop shows from those days were featuring the stereotypical pimps and hookers.... These are all characterizations  that those from other parts of the country wanted no part of and were glad they were far away from...

Even the 1980's pace picante sauce commercial made fun of the salsa that was from NEW YORK CITY...

It was also about that time things changed....some say the tv show Miami Vice singlehandedly made South Beach what it is today....movies like Wall Street intrigued others about NYC and eventually shows like 90210 , Melrose Place, Seinfeld and Sex and The City sealed the deal...It was now cool to be like LA and NYC. Everyone wanted to be more like these two cities.....and....for some reason or another......certain parts of the country wanted to shed their cowtown and farmer roots.....hot dish....being traded in for.....hot curry......

A few weeks ago I was on chowhound and looking up some info about montana- Someone (not me) mentioned they were visiting Montana and wanted to know where to find some Huckleberry Pie....Someone responded (it must have been the Montana version of Davydd) actually I can almost here them yelling and pulling out their hair "YOU KNOW WE'RE MORE THAN JUST HUCKLEBERRY PIE AND ELK BURGERS!!" and then started to rattle off some local Vietnamese Joints, Sushi Bars and Tapas Restaurants....

Well whats wrong with huckleberry pie and elk burgers?

I guess folks from NYC don't have to be like anyone else. But' it's sad to see older middle aged Jewish New Yorkers holding onto something that  barely exists anymore.  And yes  even I find the demise of the NYC Jewish Deli somewhat disheartening. When the last 5 or 6 dissappear- what will we have left?

Again, I never thought about any of this until the conversation I had with my friend. Then it all started to make sense....

Of course some will say immigration has something to do with it- to some extent it does, but in some cases these immigrants have already been there for 3 decades I'm not sure why it took 20 or 30 years to establish these restaurants, it didn't take that long in the past.

Is it me?  I don't understand the points he's trying to make.

I think that this is the justification for why reviews from out-of-town Yelpers is a measure of whether or not a restaurant is a tourist trap.

One point is clear, because he says it straight out: traditional Roadfood is dying.  Yes, but it's also being born.

its about how our basic roadfood that "we" those born in at least the 50's remember & how its changed.
I don't like too much change but what can you do.
just don't mess with my hot dogs, burgers, steaks, beer & cigarettes & I'll be happy.
I know which places to avoid by asking to look at their menu before I sit down. 

Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


Is it me?  I don't understand the points he's trying to make.

I've got to make this quick because I'm heading out in 20 minutes


I'm responding to TTM's question on the previous thread

The Travelin Man

Trust me.  I know exactly what you're trying to do.  You are trying to tell the residents of some place how their place REALLY is - from your outsider's eyes.

In a nutshell- in some parts of the country traditional roadfood just isn't cool anymore- because of the reasons I mentioned in this particular thread....and that's why it's dying- it doesn't have to but it is...

I think its a shame because the food I did manage to experience during that brief interlude  was damn good!


Chris Ayers told me he asked Michael Stern once why he doesn't review similar types of roadfood restaurants that were written about a decade or two ago  ie Crabtree's Kitchen, The White Way, Stones etc. and my understanding was that Micheal told Chris its because when these restaurants go out out business, they're not being replaced.

I think my good friend Dale is conflating road food with traditional food (even if the tradition is sometimes only 100 years old). Chinese, Vietnamese, Turkish, Ethiopian, or whatever can be just as satisfactory roadfood as hushpuppies 
or apple pie or baked beans. 

We all, I'm sure, are saddened by the loss of places that serve up quality traditional local fare, but change is the nature of this nation and the best we can do is to  patronize those dying institutions to keep them around for as long as we can.

Cheers, John 

wanderingjew
Chris Ayers told me he asked Michael Stern once why he doesn't review similar types of roadfood restaurants that were written about a decade or two ago  ie Crabtree's Kitchen, The White Way, Stones etc. and my understanding was that Micheal told Chris its because when these restaurants go out out business, they're not being replaced.

I suppose it's true, they are not being replaced.  I think it's no different than, let's say New York City, in the 1800s.  Whatever they were eating back then, some of those places probably closed as all these Jewish immigrants arrived in the city.  The city was overrun with the food of these Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe - something these people call delicatessens, where they serve these garlicky smelly fatty sandwiches.  Whatever happened to all that good, real American food!  It's dying out!  We'll never see street vendors selling those wonderful roasted yams for a penny ever again!
 
And, my god, you used to be able to enjoy a proper cup of tea in this city!  Now (early 1900s mind you) they sell these pizza pies, stinking of more garlic.  That's not traditional American food.  And remember when you used to get pickled oysters and raw onion sandwiches and pumpernickel in every tavern?  Now you have to search hard for those things, but you'll have no problem finding these stinking new sausages everyone's eating - I think they call them hot dogs.  I'm telling you, traditional American food is gone forever!

Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle

wanderingjew
Chris Ayers told me he asked Michael Stern once why he doesn't review similar types of roadfood restaurants that were written about a decade or two ago  ie Crabtree's Kitchen, The White Way, Stones etc. and my understanding was that Micheal told Chris its because when these restaurants go out out business, they're not being replaced.

I suppose it's true, they are not being replaced.  I think it's no different than, let's say New York City, in the 1800s.  Whatever they were eating back then, some of those places probably closed as all these Jewish immigrants arrived in the city.  The city was overrun with the food of these Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe - something these people call delicatessens, where they serve these garlicky smelly fatty sandwiches.  Whatever happened to all that good, real American food!  It's dying out!  We'll never see street vendors selling those wonderful roasted yams for a penny ever again!
 
And, my god, you used to be able to enjoy a proper cup of tea in this city!  Now (early 1900s mind you) they sell these pizza pies, stinking of more garlic.  That's not traditional American food.  And remember when you used to get pickled oysters and raw onion sandwiches and pumpernickel in every tavern?  Now you have to search hard for those things, but you'll have no problem finding these stinking new sausages everyone's eating - I think they call them hot dogs.  I'm telling you, traditional American food is gone forever!

I think that Seafarer John and SK Bob nailed it right on the head.
SK Bob, I was born in the mid 1960's and remember when independents exceeded the chains.

Bruce,

First on a side note, In Europe traditional food which has been around not for decades, but for centuries has managed to co-exist with ethnic (yes there are immigrants who come to Europe) and contemporary cuisine.

I simply don't understand what you're getting at. Perhaps in those days, immigrants were the main factor in food tastes changing, but not currently. Which is why these restaurants were established almost immediately upon their arrival. Katz's has been around since 1888. The immigration explosion of Eastern European Jewish immigrants took place between 1890 and 1920. And frankly, pickled oysters with onion simply sounds gross- no wonder why it went out of style. I'm actually talking aobut food that "tastes good" obviously not a subjective thing since these restaurants were included in the roadfood books at one time or another.

Currently I am convinced the main factors for these changes  are "walmallifcation" and as I previously indicated "pop culture"- certain areas of the country that want to dissassociate themselves with their past traditions and heritage and "be" more "cosmopolitan" because its the trendy thing to do. Yes, the immigrants- that have actually have been here for 3 decades already (they're not new) are taking advantage of that now , and good for them.

Again, addressing your position and using your  logic, then pizza  and meat n three's should have been out of existence decades ago, cheesesteaks should be breathing their last and buffalo wings should just about now be on the decline and BBQ?? what's that?

My point isn't that the changes are brought about by immigrants.  It's that the changes are always happening, whether by immigrants or some other factors.  Old stuff disappears, new stuff takes its place.  Roadfood isn't disappearing.  It's always evolving.

Does anyone know if there are really fewer Roadfood restaurants today than in the past?  They make up a much smaller percentage, but there are way more restaurants in total.  There are more people here now, and people eat in restaurants much more than in the past.  When I was a kid most families ate out only on rare occasions while now many people rarely eat at home.

Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


My point isn't that the changes are brought about by immigrants.  It's that the changes are always happening, whether by immigrants or some other factors.  Old stuff disappears, new stuff takes its place.  Roadfood isn't disappearing.  It's always evolving.

Oh, ok. Yes, now I get it. Yes Mr. Bilmes, I do concurr!

plb


Does anyone know if there are really fewer Roadfood restaurants today than in the past?  They make up a much smaller percentage, but there are way more restaurants in total.  There are more people here now, and people eat in restaurants much more than in the past.  When I was a kid most families ate out only on rare occasions while now many people rarely eat at home.

I think you summed it up about right.  There are more total restaurants than there used to be, and Roadfood-type restaurants are a smaller percentage of the total than in the past, but in absolute numbers, there are probably just as many as there ever were.
 
I think as people become more food savvy, Roadfood takes a hit.  Roadfood restaurants usually (but not necessarily) reflect the unique eating habits of their region.  That depends on the local population wanting to eat familiar food.  As people get more adventurous in their tastes some of their restaurant dollars get funneled away from these restaurants.
 
That's some of wanderingjew's point, isn't it?  Money is now spent on sushi and Thai green curry that used to be spent on lutefisk and hot dish.

Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


I think as people become more food savvy, Roadfood takes a hit.  Roadfood restaurants usually (but not necessarily) reflect the unique eating habits of their region.  That depends on the local population wanting to eat familiar food.  As people get more adventurous in their tastes some of their restaurant dollars get funneled away from these restaurants.
 
That's some of wanderingjew's point, isn't it?  Money is now spent on sushi and Thai green curry that used to be spent on lutefisk and hot dish.

Exactly Bruce, you nailed it. In a nutshell, there shouldn't be anything wrong  with "having your Thai Green Curry and eating your Hotdish too"

But you end up with a weird paradox.  On the one hand, adventurous Roadfooders travel around looking for the local cuisine.  But Roadfooders' success depends on the locals NOT being too adventurous, in order to preserve the local cuisine.

Roadfood restaurants may be perfect places for us to visit, but they are kept in business by a steady supply of local traffic.  That's why it's easier to preserve Roadfood in cities than in rural areas.  In a city, you can lose 95% of the local delis and there's just enough business left to support the remaining few.  In a rural area there might be just one regional place because of the low population density.  When that place closes, there's none left.

If we throw out Benihana, is there any national Thai or Japanese chain food or isn't your local Thai restaurant the 2009 equivalent of the 1940's chilihouse?
In Milwaukee, local Mexican restaurants far outnumber the psuedo-Mexican chains that cater to the more unadventurous suburban types. That said, most of our Mexican restaurants serve the poorer border area same old, same old, probably because the more affluent and culinary diverse Mexicans saw no reason to leave their home land and bring their far richer culinary items with them. Maybe that will change in our future.
Like many on this site, I moan the loss of the corner butcher, baker and in Milwaukee, tavern and find Wal-Mart, Atlanta Bread Company and "Irish" pubs, poor substitutes. I guess that's why I have a difficult time with even having a fast food/chain forum wondering why these people that love them don't start a www.fastfood.com site (no real site that I know of)? I know, I know, when you travel you don't always have the time to find a Jackson Grill (a Milwaukee treasure) and settle for a Mortons ( a good steakhouse to be sure) instead. It's just that our party of nine that went to Karl Ratzsch's Thursday night could have brought along 90 friends and gotten seated while a Carraba's visit might have found us waiting 2 hours for a table. It's not fair, it's not right and dammit when my grandchildren (if I ever get any) get old, they will never taste great German cooking, but they will find fake Italian with no problem.
 
What to do? I tell friends about this or that place when asked where to to go. I read buffetbuster, wandering jew, traveling man, ellen, buddy roadhouse, etc. and try their favs when I'm in the area. I read Roadfood  and when someone is planning a trip to Oklahoma and I offer info on their onion burgers, green chili burgers in the SW, runzas in Nebraska, apizza in CT. I do what I can to roadfood alive.  Roadfood disappears but yep, roadfood is created. Sorry for this disjointed stream of consciousness rant. I hope America's regional unique places will survive. Perhaps they will in different forms. Maybe my imaginary grandchildren will one day be moaning about their good old days when you could get a kofta kabob on every corner.

wanderingjew

Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


Money is now spent on sushi and Thai green curry that used to be spent on lutefisk and hot dish.

Exactly Bruce, you nailed it. In a nutshell, there shouldn't be anything wrong  with "having your Thai Green Curry and eating your Hotdish too"

Listen, guys, I doubt seriously that anybody ever spent money on hotdish:

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Cooking-for-Wanderingjew-Tater-Tot-Hotdish-m515821.aspx

I have to tell you, Nancy, I think your hotdish looks very edible.  I'd pay for it.

MilwFoodlovers


If we throw out Benihana, is there any national Thai or Japanese chain food ...?

The Fuji Japanese Steakhouse chain is akin to Benihana.. and proliferating like rabbits.  We just got one on the east side of Cincinnati a few weeks ago.

Roadfood is not dying, it is in fact growing in influence. Local chefs in Portland are opening sandwich and pizza shops, putting their own spin on hamburgers and committed to using the freshest local ingredients while creating excellent versions of traditional American dishes.
   Also tastes have changed because of demography and increased attention paid to ill effects of certain types of food that were popular in the past. New generations of Jews are aware of cholesterol and fat and many just don't want the fatty , high calorie foods their ancestors liked. Scandanavians  in the twin cities don't like the traditional foods because the town offers a lot of restaurants run by designers chefs that feature more tasty and interesting takes on traditional   foods and the new ethnic groups in town offer takes on food that are more tasty. The idea that Twin City folks don't eat scandanavian food as often now  because of  80's pop culture feelings of shame about lack of hipness is one of the silliest ideas I have encountered. Seattle was about 80% Scandanavian 100 years ago, so  in the world according to Wandering jew, the fact that there aren't a lot of Scandavian restaurants in Seattle would indicate there is not authentic roadfood there. The demography in Minneapolis has changed and to expect the food taste to be identical to 40 years ago is absurd. There will be more.

Well thanks, Bruce/Sue . . but I bet you wouldn't pay a lot.  I mean, I'm sure some high-end place has some high-end variation on it to please the hipster doofuses, but it's something you make to stretch food to feed children, fundamentally.

(whispering) Lutefisk probably should die out.

Also, Dale, I'm going to throw one little smoking grenade into this conversation, because I want you to think about it.  All the cuisines that you think of as acceptable Roadfood are as cooked by white people, and the cuisines you seem to resist are as cooked by brown people.  That's just cultural evolution, man.  It's not static and it would be counter to the spirit of what roadfood represents to stand in its way.

Nancypalooza


Also, Dale, I'm going to throw one little smoking grenade into this conversation, because I want you to think about it.  All the cuisines that you think of as acceptable Roadfood are as cooked by white people, and the cuisines you seem to resist are as cooked by brown people.  That's just cultural evolution, man.  It's not static and it would be counter to the spirit of what roadfood represents to stand in its way.

I just got back from my local coffeehouse- Main Street Coffee.. I was going to throw a smoking grenade at my friend, Mr Chip's response and also throw a wrench at Davydd- that's one is going to take some time- it's actually a humerous one-  I have to figure out how to download sound effects!

However I really need to respond to this comment-
I'm surprised at your comment Nancy, that couldn't be further from the truth and you know it. I'm disappointed in you.

You know all too well that I enjoy soul food and bbq when traveling through the South.  BBQ is expertly prepared by both black and white folks.

Cuban, Haitian and Jamaican food when going through South Florida.

Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Thai and Korean on both the east and west coast.

Tex Mex, Cal Mex, Arizona Mex, New Mexican and Native American Cuisine as well.

I consider all of this roadfood as much of it has been "americanized" and re-created locally. I like ethnic food too.. Indian, Ethiopian, Middle Eastern. etc. I'm on the fence about whether to place  any of these in the roadfood category. For example the Stern's don't exactly  consider Sushi "roadfood"  but do consider the L.A. california/wacky roll creations "roadfood" . Would high end italian be considered roadfood? I doubt it, I know I wouldn't. But again, the typical "red sauce" italian joint is so americanized that it is roadfood.

To summarize, I'm looking for stuff that I can't find in my own backyard, roadfood, ethnic food, whatever...True, you can cook your own hotdish, however you can also make your own bbq, breaded pork tenderloins, hot dogs and burgers too. But I've got great Hmong and Thai Restaurants 20 minutes or less away from my front door.

mr chips


Roadfood is not dying, it is in fact growing in influence. Local chefs in Portland are opening sandwich and pizza shops, putting their own spin on hamburgers and committed to using the freshest local ingredients while creating excellent versions of traditional American dishes.

You're right, I don't think it's taking the hit in the Pacific Northwest as it is in other parts of the country

   Also tastes have changed because of demography and increased attention paid to ill effects of certain types of food that were popular in the past. New generations of Jews are aware of cholesterol and fat and many just don't want the fatty , high calorie foods their ancestors liked.

Yes, but they were aware of this a generation ago and  the deli's were still flourishing 30-35 years ago. Besides that, fried chicken, polish sausage, cheese curds, breaded pork tenderloins and pork ribs (stuff that's all bad for you) seem to be flourishing.

 Scandanavians  in the twin cities don't like the traditional foods because the town offers a lot of restaurants run by designers chefs that feature more tasty and interesting takes on traditional   foods and the new ethnic groups in town offer takes on food that are more tasty.

I wasn't really referring to Scandinavian Food specifically, but was actually making reference  to the central and northern heartland farmhouse cafe with Scandinavian influences. But now that we're on the subject of Scandinavian food, I find it very tasty. There's much, much, much, more to Scandinavian food that just "Lutefisk".
And those new ethnic groups you're referring to are not new- They've been there for 30+ years already. When Jews and Italians immigrated to NYC, they established their restaurants almost immediately. Pizza was first served at Lombardi's in 1905 and Katz's opened in 1888. Using your argument of "new" then Pizza and Katz's probably shouldn't have made its rounds until 1940 or so.

 The idea that Twin City folks don't eat scandanavian food as often now  because of  80's pop culture feelings of shame about lack of hipness is one of the silliest ideas I have encountered.

It's not silly at all it's reality. Any sociologist would tell you that trends, the media and pop culture effect all aspects of society- food, dress, culture....for example, as a kid, I remember when CB radios were all the rage.....Looking back, tell me why the frig would a suburban white collar dad on Long Island need a CB??!!!! And today,  40 something year old women having  cosmo and cupcake parties???!!
 If pop culture (not necessarily 80's pop culture) or lack of hipness wasn't an issue then people wouldn't be on the defensive if someone chooses to pursue hot dish over hot curry.

Seattle was about 80% Scandanavian 100 years ago, so  in the world according to Wandering jew, the fact that there aren't a lot of Scandavian restaurants in Seattle would indicate there is not authentic roadfood there.

I can't account for the percentage, that sounds like alot, although I do concurr that Seattle certainly has a large Scandinavian population. However the original settleres were from Ohio- English origin perhaps? Folks like Yesler, Maynard and Denny I know were some of the early settlers. Also a large French (Canadian?) contingency- and their "Chinatown" now called the International District was established fairly early. When I lived in Seattle, Ballard was the the old Scandinavian District. There were a few Scandinavian restaurants there if I recall. Not alot, but they were there.

 The demography in Minneapolis has changed and to expect the food taste to be identical to 40 years ago is absurd. There will be more.

Yes, but as I said recently, this change took place 30 years ago. And this change has occurred in other cities too- IE Atlanta- yet you can still find plenty of BBQ, Soul Food and Meat n 3's restaurants there and Atlantans will proudly refer you to these"old" "out dated" "cholesterol laden"  places first and foremost prior to even thinking about mentioning the plethora of Vietnamese and Thai Restaurants if they ever do at all.

I believe there would be far more Roadfood eateries if it wasn't for the ridiculous Health, Fire, Liquor, licensing, etc, departments, who have hoops you have to jump thru which are for the most part ridiculous and terribly costly...Is oversight needed? Of course, but the insanity of the inspectors and clueless bureaucrats who have to justify their existence by making your business life nearly not worth the effort, is a crime. Unless you have deep pockets, well heeled investors, or Corporate backing, it is a daunting task opening a Roadfood Restaurant. Believe me, been there, doing it!

Would you eat horsemeat or perhaps past its prime pork while sitting in a firetrap, having a cocktail made with generic booze refilled into a top shelf bottle where the employees don't wash their hands after using the bathroom?

MilwFoodlovers


Would you eat horsemeat

I sure would. Back a few years ago there was a lot of horsemeat eaten in the United States. It's delicious.

Sorry to have to report that , on the basis of his recent reports, in my estimation, Chewingthefat is an irresponsible anarchist and I would not feel safe eating in any establishment he might be associated with.

On the other hand, just maybe he'd great company offering up his outlandish opinions to our uproarious laughter...

Cheers, john    

We used to have a horsemeat restaurant in Milwaukee and with me being much younger then, by the time I gathered up the courage to try some, they were out of business.. Let me paraphrase my sentence by saying would you be happy eating horsemeat when you thought you were ordering a fine cut of beef?

I ate a horse meat steak in Belgium in the 70's & it tasted like prime steak to me
just don't call me Mr. Ed.
MilwFoodLovers, I guess you've never worked construction or been to a biker bar or a food festival.
none of those places are "sanitary" but I've been eating & drinking at those places all my life & am in better shape than most people who are "sanitary"

MilwFoodlovers
Maybe my imaginary grandchildren will one day be moaning about their good old days when you could get a kofta kabob on every corner.

You joke, but I think you've got it exactly right.  Oh, it may or may not be kofta kabob.  But it'll be something we take for granted today that one day will be hard to find.