Southern Cal Burger Culture - Fact or Fiction?

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I'll respond this evening. I have work to do.

I will say this briefly,

I'm not the one defining anyone's culture, I'm just relaying what the Stern's wrote about- so I guess you can "point the finger"
at them.

Yeah, but they're "Easterners"

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd
To me it is not so much the food or type of food but the place.

I agree 100%!! This has always been my feeling as well.

And to just add, I always looked upon the Roadfood books, especially the early ones, as more of a how to book, than a destination guide. In other words, the places in the book were presented as examples of what to look for in your travels, not necessarily the only places worthy of trying in any given region.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I'm just relaying what the Stern's wrote about- so I guess you can "point the finger"
at them.

That's not quite right. You are relaying your interpretation of what the Sterns have written as if it was actually what they wrote. I (and it sounds to me like others) disagree with your interpretation, not with what the Sterns have written.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
That's not quite right. You are relaying your interpretation of what the Sterns have written as if it was actually what they wrote. I (and it sounds to me like others) disagree with your interpretation, not with what the Sterns have written.

So the Orange Inn, The Grill on the Alley, Ichiban PB, Meyera and Juice Caboose were just figments of my imagination?

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
That's not quite right. You are relaying your interpretation of what the Sterns have written as if it was actually what they wrote. I (and it sounds to me like others) disagree with your interpretation, not with what the Sterns have written.

So the Orange Inn, The Grill on the Alley, Ichiban PB, Meyera and Juice Caboose were just figments of my imagination?

Those restaurants are not, of course, figments of your imagination. Your characterization of those restaurants is a figment of your imagination.

Orange Inn and Juice Kaboose were indeed smoothie shops. Meyera was a veggie restaurant. You are wrong about the other two: Ichiban PB may have served teriyaki and sushi, but if you read the Stern review, you'll see that's not why it was written up. Ichiban represented beach/surfer cuisine, much as Hodad's does today. The Grill had nothing to do with health food, teriyaki, sushi, etc.

Some of those places have closed. Others may not be as good as they were when the Sterns last wrote about them. They still post reviews of old-time icons like Philippe, Sears Fine Foods, Pink's, Sam's Grill, Swan Oyster Depot, Shields Date Gardens, Musso & Frank...

Also, the Sterns still have reviews of places that serve fresh fruit-laden breakfasts, nut-topped waffles, huevos rancheros, Hawaiian food, artichokes, milk shakes, crab, salmon, halibut, sourdough bread, petrale sole, hangtown fry, Santa Maria barbecue, date shakes, cioppino... and yes, burgers. Many of these regional foods were never even discussed by the Sterns in your beloved year of 1986, the year Roadfood and Goodfood was published, and the year you apparently think the Sterns should have preserved in amber for eternity.

How, in your wildest dreams, you can claim the Sterns have abandoned their Roadfood mission, or have pandered to their readership, is beyond me!

A while back I asked WJ about this topic in an email. He was very nice in his reply.
I am glad he brought this topic up again, for discussion.


In my time posting here in RF the one thing I have learned (this is my personal opinion):

The definition set by the Sterns is open to one's own interpretation. Jane and Michael didn't climb a mountain and hear a voice from above saying "Here is my commandments". The definition is NOT written in stone.

Use their definition as a guideline, and set your own parameters.


As far as the burger culture of Southern California, I have always felt it ties into the car/hot rod culture of the late 50's & 60's, and grew from there.

Unfortunately, too many of the smaller Mom & Pop places, the places with the character, and the "Roadfood Feel" have gone the way of the dinosaur. These are the places we remember fondly and hold dear to our hearts. Times change, people change too. There are still "roadfood" places out there.

That is why I use the roadfood definition set by the Stern's as a guideline.


I may find a great burger joint in SoCal, but like WJ has said there may be a great juice bar or smoothie place out there too.



Roadfood is not ONLY the food, but the people, the place, the "Soul".

Very well put CK.

quote:

Originally posted by CajunKing

As far as the burger culture of Southern California, I have always felt it ties into the car/hot rod culture of the late 50's & 60's, and grew from there.

CajunKing, I totally agree.

I might add that all those things that wanderingjew talks about are also good Roadfood candidates. A defense of burgers as CaliRoadfood doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the principle one. It's one of many.

wanderingjew is a good sport. If he weren't he wouldn't have started this nakedly provocative topic in the first place. He must enjoy it.

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Bad

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd
To me it is not so much the food or type of food but the place.

I agree 100%!! This has always been my feeling as well.

And to just add, I always looked upon the Roadfood books, especially the early ones, as more of a how to book, than a destination guide. In other words, the places in the book were presented as examples of what to look for in your travels, not necessarily the only places worthy of trying in any given region.

Ditto right back at you. I've been discussing in other threads that the objective of using the books lockstep out of fear of disappointment is not the best thing to do since many places in the books have proven to be disappointments to me. The excitement is finding new places. I'm sure the Sterns have had many disappointments that have never been mentioned in the books. I have had my disappointments as well but not to the point of going out to the parking lot and gagging.

quote:

Originally posted by No Talent

I've noticed that people with a low number of posts get less respect while others with a high number get automatic respect

*laff*

not true at all. I have a fairly high number of posts and get derided all the time. Trust me, there is no "automatic respect" here.....nor should there be.

I agree with CK in the car-burger culture reference. it was southern ca that embraced and even idolized the car as the perfect expression of sun-fun-freedom that gave rise to the drive in. obviously burger and dogs were natural "car foods" that permeated the car culture. I think its only natural that burgers are so strongly associated with southern cal.thats my story and I'm sticking to it. mahoalo bkk

CajunKing is a smart guy.

I have to say that I had a similar thought though when I was recently in those two restaurants in Asheville--I wanted to ask y'all if a place could be Roadfood and have the words 'balsamic' or 'cruelty-free' on their menu. But then I realized that the cant-filled slippery slope I was stepping onto was one where I didn't want to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Nancypalooza

I wanted to ask y'all if a place could be Roadfood and have the words 'balsamic' or 'cruelty-free' on their menu. But then I realized that the cant-filled slippery slope I was stepping onto was one where I didn't want to be.

That's right, bring no petards to the Roadfood table, lest ye too be hoist with them.

If it feels like Roadfood to you, it is (to you). That's an easy enough guideline. At least, that approach works for me, and for Sue (and we don't always agree either).

balsamic vinegar burgers?!? hmmm.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
See, wanderingjew, there you go again, dragging "the majority on the forum" in to support your viewpoint.
I, for one, DO NOT agree that all the signature food items mentioned in the USA Today piece represent the associated cities.

I've been on the forum for 5 years, and based on prior discussions, I am confident that most people on the forum would agree with the signature foods mentioned in the USA Today. I'm curious though which one's don't you agree with?

quote:

Davydd Posted - 04/29/2008
WanderingJew, I think you are confusing definitions of what road food is.

No we're not really discussing the definition of roadfood here- we're discussing signature southern california roadfood.

quote:

Davydd Posted - 04/29/2008
You desire to bend the definition to regional specialties as a singular criteria such as your continued insistence that lutefisk is road food in Minnesota yet is nearly impossible to find.

I never said lutefisk was roadfood- even I disagree with that- if I ever said it- that was a joke. However, this time we're not talking about roadfood in Minnesota-

quote:

Davydd Posted - 04/29/2008 : 11:07:21
Juice bars, smoothie shops, casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants could be road food if it is run by sleeves up culinary folk artist, and is informal, inexpensive, colorful and has character. There is more to road food than the type of food, regionally found food or abundance of food in a region. Hamburger joints tend to lean to the Sterns' definition. Corporate juice bars don'

Again, I absolutely agree, burgers are by definition "roadfood" but argumentably, other than the CT steamed cheeseburger, the Iowa loosemeat and the New Mexico Green Chili burger I don't see anything regionally distinctive about a burger- again argumentably you might find a better quality burger in the midwest.

Corporate juice bars definetely don't fit into the definition of roadfood- but the plethora of independent sleeves up culinary juice bars in Southern California do.

quote:

Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle Posted - 04/29/2008
Ichiban PB may have served teriyaki and sushi, but if you read the Stern review, you'll see that's not why it was written up. Ichiban represented beach/surfer cuisine

That may be part of the reason, however they do mention the hot teryaki and well made sushi. I can't imagine the Stern's writing about the amazing great local atmosphere the restaurant offers (in this case the "surf culture atmosphere") however the food is an afterthought and therefore inconsequential.

quote:

Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle Posted - 04/29/2008
The Grill had nothing to do with health food, teriyaki, sushi, etc.

I agree, however I was also referring to Cobb Salad which apparently has been dismissed or ignored as of late

quote:

Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle Posted - 04/29/2008
Also, the Sterns still have reviews of places that serve fresh fruit-laden breakfasts, nut-topped waffles, huevos rancheros, Hawaiian food, artichokes, milk shakes, crab, salmon, halibut, sourdough bread, petrale sole, hangtown fry, Santa Maria barbecue, date shakes, cioppino... and yes, burgers

I agree, but now we're referring to California as a whole- Again, I was referring to Southern California and specifically the LA area.

quote:

Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle Posted - 04/29/2008
How, in your wildest dreams, you can claim the Sterns have abandoned their Roadfood mission, or have pandered to their readership, is beyond me!

I never said that the Sterns have abandoned roadfood. And I don't think "pander" is the appropriate term, however if the Stern's have access to their fan base through the internet which they didn't really have until the roadfood forum, then why not appeal to their fan base- it's not "selling out"- even you've admitted that the Stern's have fine tuned what they've written about over the years.

quote:

CajunKing Posted - 04/29/2008
As far as the burger culture of Southern California, I have always felt it ties into the car/hot rod culture of the late 50's & 60's, and grew from there.

I'm not certain if the car/hot rod culture of that time period is really tied in to Southern California specifically. I wasn't even a thought yet in the 1950's and I'll admit that my knowledge of 50's culture is limited to American Graffiti (which actually took place in Modesto CA- not Southern Cal) and Happy Days (which took place in Milwaukee) I think this was more of an "American Thing" in general, therefore tieing in that Burgers is overall probably more of an American Thing- Hell, if someone wants to put a lettuce leaf on a burger and label it a California burger then be my guest. Perhaps someone at Katz's in NYC will put chopped liver on a burger and invent the NY Burger.

I'll turn ya'll on to a gem of a website, with narry a juice or sushi bar in sight. Want to find the real Roadfood in California? You'll find it right here...

http://www.latimemachines.com/


Dean

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

if the Stern's have access to their fan base through the internet which they didn't really have until the roadfood forum, then why not appeal to their fan base- it's not "selling out"

I would call it selling out. I'd also call it bad business, and really dumb to boot on their part. If that's what they did. Which I'm confident they did not.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

even you've admitted that the Stern's have fine tuned what they've written about over the years.

Fine tuned? Not what I would call it. What I would say is that they've continued to learn about American food; continued to expand their Roadfood repertoire as they learn more and more about how people eat in this country; refused to assume they already know all there is to know. "He not busy being born is busy dying."

Something else to consider: it's not as if they once had a dozen smoothie places in their books and on this site, and they dropped them all because they no longer think California smoothies are Roadfood. There were perhaps only two they wrote about. One closed; on the other, they changed their minds. Maybe they just haven't found a good replacement for them yet.

It's not like they're on the road 365 days a year. They're just two people. They've never written about Roadfood in Modesto or Fresno or Flint or Altoona or Waco or... You think that's because they've researched those places thoroughly and found no worthy Roadfood? Of course not. They've probably spent little time in any of those places, if they've been there at all. That's why it's so valuable to have site users submit their Roadfood finds, to fill in the gaps.

You think there should be California smoothie places on Roadfood.com? You can complain that the Sterns haven't found one they consider worthy. Or you can write one up yourself and submit it.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I'm not certain if the car/hot rod culture of that time period is really tied in to Southern California specifically.

Southern California was really the center of "car culture". Hot rods and drive in restaurants all started in the LA area, but it was actually in the 30's and 40's.

I'm not so sure California started the drive-in restaurant concept. The automotive center including racing was in the Midwest. The Wigwam drive-in restaurant (later the Teepee) opened in Indianapolis in 1932. The Pig Stand in Dallas-Ft. Worth opened in 1921. I'm sure California usurped the concept like they do everything. There is no denying California was the fastest growing state in the 20th Century so opportunity was boundless for forging ahead with concepts and of course Hollywood publicized and popularized all concepts centered around California. California did not become hot rod and auto centered until after WW2.

Drive-ins were extremely popular in Indianapolis during the 50's as was incessant cruising all night long. BTW, American Graffiti supposedly took place during the summer of 1962 (also my high school graduation year) but the movie was made in 1973. I can still remember standing in line for the movie and an older lady in front of us said, "What's the big deal? It was only 10 years ago." I guess it is all relative. Happy Days setting was supposed to take place in the 50's but was a TV show during the 70's. Younger people today probably couldn't make that distinction. The decades were wildly different. As for hot rods, I may have had a unique and jaded view growing up in Speedway, IN where there was a race car, dragster, or hot rod in just about every other garage. I got my driver's license on the very last day of the 50's decade and was all set for cruising, customizing cars, and rebuilding engines.

OK, back to topic. Road food is about the place. It is not about the cataloging of regional or signature food varieties. Lobster at an inexpensive seaside New England lobster pond might be road food but would not necessarily be road food in the most expensive white linen table Boston restaurant. If a family owned shack along the highway in Iowa was flying in live lobster and serving it inexpensively to the locals it would again be road food in my opinion. If La Belle Vie, one of the reputed best (and expensive) restaurants in Minneapolis were to serve lutefisk it would not be road food but it would be a regional signature food.

Happy Days was set in Milwaukee like Laverne & Shirley, wasn't it?

Happy Days was set in Milwaukee. Laverne & Shirley was an offshoot of that show.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

I would call it selling out. I'd also call it bad business, and really dumb to boot on their part. If that's what they did. Which I'm confident they did not.

I completeley disagree. Giving in to the masses, would be selling out.
Being "in tune with followers of roadfood" isn't.
I'll give you an example in a different context and use a rock band as an example. I'll even go back to the classic rock era of the 70's .
Lynyrd Skynyrd was a great band- their fans wanted to hear "Free Bird" at their concerts, so they performed that among their many other hits to please their fans. Let's say the plane crash never happenned and the continued to perform into the early 1980's, then all of a sudden in 1984, they put out an Album that almost identical to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" - That would be selling out.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

Something else to consider: it's not as if they once had a dozen smoothie places in their books and on this site, and they dropped them all because they no longer think California smoothies are Roadfood. There were perhaps only two they wrote about. One closed; on the other, they changed their minds. Maybe they just haven't found a good replacement for them yet.

Actually there were 3, I forgot the OB Juice Bar, which is out of business. I did e-mail Michael a few months back about Juice Caboose- he told me he didn't know why Juice Caboose was removed- so I'm speculating that it wasn't because they "changed their minds"

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

You think there should be California smoothie places on Roadfood.com? Or you can write one up yourself and submit it.

I certainly intend to when I revisit Southern California next year. Hopefully there will be several.

Real good debate...........keep going...

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew
Let's say the plane crash never happenned and the continued to perform into the early 1980's, then all of a sudden in 1984, they put out an Album that almost identical to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" - That would be selling out.

I dunno whether it's selling out or not, but I WOULD REALLY LOVE TO HEAR THAT ALBUM MAN.

Dale, I'm going to ask this because I have a similar problem? Are you sure that you just aren't one of those people who needs to be ahead of the curve as to what's awesome and cool, and so you mightily resist any efforts to make that open or widely available to anybody else? I used to do this with music, which we now know is a developmental stage all by itself. 'Oh I love the Blah Blah Blahs. Oh they have a hit record. Oh I don't like 'em anymore, they sold out. ^%*&$* you, Blah Blah Blahs!'

The problem is, when you get yourself so far out on this intellectualized explanation plank as to what's Roadfood and what's not, your core argument is undermined by your corner-of-mouth-frothing Daniel Day Lewis zeal in nailing down all dissent. Maybe it's a tone thing, and you intend it entirely differently from how it comes across on the forum, or maybe I'm just seriously misreading you. But you sound nuts dude. Have a beer.

Bruce: I have a question for you, and it is not meant as criticism, but I think that it fits within the scope of the discussion here.

What makes a branch of the Wolfgang Puck empire, in a hotel in Las Vegas, roadfood?

Thanks in advance for your time.

I gave up on the Blah Blah Blahs when the drummer OD'd.

quote:

Originally posted by MiamiDon

Bruce: I have a question for you, and it is not meant as criticism, but I think that it fits within the scope of the discussion here.

What makes a branch of the Wolfgang Puck empire, in a hotel in Las Vegas, roadfood?

Thanks in advance for your time.

It's not Roadfood in any way.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I did e-mail Michael a few months back about Juice Caboose- he told me he didn't know why Juice Caboose was removed- so I'm speculating that it wasn't because they "changed their minds"

"I vas der, Charlie" when the decision was made to drop Juice Kaboose. Maybe he really forgot, but I didn't. He changed his mind.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

You think there should be California smoothie places on Roadfood.com? Or you can write one up yourself and submit it.

I certainly intend to when I revisit Southern California next year. Hopefully there will be several.

I look forward to your reviews of California smoothie shops.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

quote:

Originally posted by MiamiDon

Bruce: I have a question for you, and it is not meant as criticism, but I think that it fits within the scope of the discussion here.

What makes a branch of the Wolfgang Puck empire, in a hotel in Las Vegas, roadfood?

Thanks in advance for your time.

It's not Roadfood in any way.

OK, I see where I went wrong. Your Logbook entry was so complete that it stuck in my mind as a Review, but it's not.