Southern Cal Burger Culture - Fact or Fiction?

When I was up in New Hampshire a couple of days ago at the Red Arrow Diner, Cecif and I had an interesting conversation about this.

I had mentioned that that the last in the last few Roadfood books, it appears in my opinion that the Sterns more recent Restaurant Reviews appeal more to the general consensus of the roadfood forum. For example more LA burger Joints and less or (actually no) reviews of juice bars smoothie shops casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants- which to me (and apparently to the Sterns at one point) will always be authentic So-Cal Roadfood..

Why burgers? I have no clue- Granted I believe there are more burger joints in the Western Half of the country- I lived in Albuquerque and Seattle and frankly didn't observe any more burger joints per capita in LA than I did in those two cities- I've been to In and Out albeit it was 20 years ago- and found it to be nothing special- I can literally go "down the street" and find a burger that's just as good-if not better!

Where I grew up on Long Island - any of the local Long Island Diners will serve up a burger that will give any burger on the left coast a run for its money.

So why Burgers? I don't know- perhaps its because Southern Californians (at least the minority that's on this forum) hav' ta' have something to call their own- but they do- they have several roadfood treasures they can call their own- Smoothies- California Rolls- Cobb Salad- heck, even the French Dip Sandwich.

The only other reason I can think of is that McDonald's got its start there. But that's still not a good enough reason- TGI Friday's got its start in NYC- sadly and ironically the day I was born- does that mean that casual restaurant chains are "new york roadfood"?? I think not!

Burgers if anything will always have a place in the mid section of the country- that's where they reign supreme- The only problem is that many Midwesterners are so humble- even they themselves don't even realize that- It's up to others to say- hey- remember- you're in beef country- and even then their response is "oh, yeah-I guess so".

Ironically the one restaurant review on the forum that screams southern california is actually a review from Ayersian-
www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=5250

Juice Caboose was also at one point listed under restaurants but for some bizarre reason has since been removed and no one seems to know why (it's still in business)

So, to answer the question- in my opionion it's a big fat FICTION!

Tbere- that's my rant for the day!

Are juice bars smoothie shops casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants more a yuppie trend than California? There are certainly enough of them in the Twin Cities here in the upper Midwest. More so than lutefisk, hotdish and wild rice serving restaurants. I say put an avocado on the burger and call it a day.

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

Are juice bars smoothie shops casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants more a yuppie trend than California? There are certainly enough of them in the Twin Cities here in the upper Midwest. More so than lutefisk, hotdish and wild rice serving restaurants. I say put an avocado on the burger and call it a day.

Far from it and not even close...

These type of restaurants have been established in the LA area for decades and the "trend" so to speak started there just like the "Pizza Trend" started in NYC or the Cheesesteak Trend Started in Philly- the Stern's wrote about them in their Roadfood books prior to the roadfood forum. I've been to the twin cities and their suburbs at least half a dozen times- and although a few of these places exist- they're not inundated like they are in the LA area-

I know plenty of yuppies and although THEY may frequent those places in the Twin CIties- - on the other hand its Joe Everyman/woman who does in LA.


I've shown this link before- and I think it hits the nail right in the head

[url]www.usaweekend.com/07_issues/070520/070520travel.html[/url]

1) Someone writes critical things about Durgin-Park. wanderingjew disagrees. So the guy who was critical didn't just have a different viewpoint, he had a secret, nefarious plot to bring down Durgin-Park so he can gain a real estate advantage.

2) The Sterns call burgers in Southern California Roadfood. wanderingjew disagrees. So the Sterns don't simply have a different viewpoint, they are trying to appeal to the Roadfood Forum consensus.

Now I actually enjoy reading about wanderingjew's unique take on Roadfood. And I also enjoy discussing the same with him. And very, very little gets under my skin. But, wanderingjew, it's time you accepted the idea that some people can honestly disagree with you. How about not ascribing to them less-than-pure intent?

Oh... and also, burgers in SoCal are Roadfood.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

Are juice bars smoothie shops casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants more a yuppie trend than California? There are certainly enough of them in the Twin Cities here in the upper Midwest. More so than lutefisk, hotdish and wild rice serving restaurants. I say put an avocado on the burger and call it a day.

Far from it and not even close...

These type of restaurants have been established in the LA area for decades and the "trend" so to speak started there just like the "Pizza Trend" started in NYC or the Cheesesteak Trend Started in Philly- the Stern's wrote about them in their Roadfood books prior to the roadfood forum. I've been to the twin cities and their suburbs at least half a dozen times- and although a few of these places exist- they're not inundated like they are in the LA area-

I know plenty of yuppies and although THEY may frequent those places in the Twin CIties- - on the other hand its Joe Everyman/woman who does in LA.


I've shown this link before- and I think it hits the nail right in the head

[url]www.usaweekend.com/07_issues/070520/070520travel.html[/url]

well if all the republicans are eating california rolls, are hippies eating all the hamburgers?

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

It breaks my heart that this world has become so "PC" that when someone voices a valid and factual opinion it is blasted because it might offend one person in the world.

I have just read two brilliant rants in two days by wandering jew and am trying to find past rants. How refreshing to read someone who writes what people are thinking but won't speak of.

Michael Stern personally told me you two are his editors but I forgot to ask him which one "I" is so I'm not sure who I'm addressing.

quote:

Originally posted by No Talent

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

It breaks my heart that this world has become so "PC" that when someone voices a valid and factual opinion it is blasted because it might offend one person in the world.

I have just read two brilliant rants in two days by wandering jew and am trying to find past rants. How refreshing to read someone who writes what people are thinking but won't speak of.

Michael Stern personally told me you two are his editors but I forgot to ask him which one "I" is so I'm not sure who I'm addressing.

I is Bruce. Sue does not post in the Forums.

What is a "factual opinion?"

I've lived in California for my entire life (born in the 50's) and I've been to a juice bar one time and had a California roll one time (when I was on a cruise to Alaska). When I go to Iowa to see my cousins I have Maid-Rites and tenderloin sandwiches, when I go to Chicago to see my other cousins I have hot dogs. When I go to New York I have hot dogs and pizza. When I'm at home I eat hamburgers and 'Mexican food'. I don't know if they're good or special but they are what is available here. I know people must be eating Sushi because I see restaurants around but I haven't met those folks.

LA is just 1 small part of California. 150 miles North and you'd be hard pressed to find a juice bar. But you will find a number of hamburger joints. Including my favorite, In n Out. Whenever I get back to Calif. They are my 1st stop. Not a juice or sushi joint.

quote:

What is a "factual opinion?"

I see you added this later which means you're somewhat upset.
I've moved on and forgot what we were discussing but I will say that I've noticed that people with a low number of posts get less respect while others with a high number get automatic respect.

Since this is human nature, I'm confused as to why "wandering jew" with nearly 3400 posts would be confronted by you like you did. Is there a back story ?

From what I've read, I support the voice of wandering jew (and I'm not religious in any way).

I think of California and hamburgers as part of a culture that uniquely go together. I suspect that California is among the many contenders for drive-in supremacy, though of course, many other states have their own unique take.

How did California and hamburgers become synonomous? Through all the 'Beach Party' movies with Frankie and Annette; all they ate were burgers, or pizza.
This is the place where I went for a burger. As much as w.j. is complaining about the review that is missing, this review is missing a great close up photo of the burger.

http://www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Writeup.aspx?ReviewID=3868&RefID=3951

mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

1) Someone writes critical things about Durgin-Park. wanderingjew disagrees. So the guy who was critical didn't just have a different viewpoint, he had a secret, nefarious plot to bring down Durgin-Park so he can gain a real estate advantage.

2) The Sterns call burgers in Southern California Roadfood. wanderingjew disagrees. So the Sterns don't simply have a different viewpoint, they are trying to appeal to the Roadfood Forum consensus.

Now I actually enjoy reading about wanderingjew's unique take on Roadfood. And I also enjoy discussing the same with him. And very, very little gets under my skin. But, wanderingjew, it's time you accepted the idea that some people can honestly disagree with you. How about not ascribing to them less-than-pure intent?

Oh... and also, burgers in SoCal are Roadfood.

That's why I posted this rant- I know that many are going to disagree and I'm fine with that. But like our other friendly debates, you have to admit (at least begrudgingly) that I have extended some excellent counter points .

1- Re: Durgin Park- I'm not just generating a conspiracy out of my head- I have a friend who works for the City of Boston and he knows what's going on with Durgin Park and how they're trying to get them out and replace them with a national chain- I just thought that it was extremely odd that the guy who wrote the last review works for a commercial property management firm, and wasn't instead "a doctor" or a fireman". I just drew my own conclusions (which by the way I still believe)

2- Regarding the Sterns, I just want to be very clear that I'm not criticizing them. You yourself admitted that they've been concentrating on more of the burger, hot dog, pizza, bbq, clam shack places in their most recent books and not the more expensive places (which are still roadfood in my book and apparently in their book at one point) Who would not want to appeal to their fan base?

[url]www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5431[/url]
[url]www.roadfood.com/Forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5448 [/url]

Here are two old threads referring to "you know you're in a roadfood restaurant when" and "you know you're not in a roadfood restuarant when"

When these threads were first posted, that was the first time I realized that, hey others (and apparently the majority on the forum" don't agree with me on this. Specifically cloth napkins and maitre d's. Many roadfood restaurants have cloth napkins (I know the Golden Ox in Kansas City does among others for example) and Joe's Stone Crab has a Maitre D.

Now going to back to Burgers in Southern California, if burgers are roadfood in Southern California, then they're also roadfood in New York, Wyoming, Georgia, Kansas and New Mexico and every other state for that matter. I didn't see anymore burger shops in LA than I did in Kansas City.

What's so special about LA burgers? Are they better than burgers elsewhere- I didn't think so when I tried that In and Out Burger 20 years ago? Were they invented in LA? (again using the McDonalds Argument, I guess they were)

Ironically one of my coworkers moved from LA to Rhode Island- I asked her what she missed most (food wise) her reply was- the amazingly fresh Sushi- she didn't mention Burgers

Why does that USA Today Article that I linked yesterday refer to Lobster Rolls in Maine, Piedmont BBQ in North Carolina, Brats in Milwaukee, Gumbo in Milwaukee, yet it does not refer to Burgers in Los Angeles, instead it refers to California Rolls- why is that?

Bruce, in the past the Sterns wrote about Cobb Salad, Smoothies, California Rolls and Vegetarian restaurants in their "roadfood books"
are you saying this is not "Southern California Roadfood?"

quote:

No Talent
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 04:59:54

Since this is human nature, I'm confused as to why "wandering jew" with nearly 3400 posts would be confronted by you like you did. Is there a back story ?

From what I've read, I support the voice of wandering jew (and I'm not religious in any way).

No Talent,

Thanks for your support, I'm not exactly what you'd call religious

Bruce and I are just having a friendly debate there's nothing confrontational here.

Actually, wanderingjew, I mostly agree with you. I think all those things you list ARE California Roadfood. And of course your rant was meant to start a good debate - that's one of the many reasons you have so many fans on Roadfood.com. And you can count me among them.

Burgers: you've probably noticed that the Sterns have a handful of food items that they apparently consider "American Roadfood" rather than regional Roadfood. Things like burgers, hot dogs, turkey dinners... I'm not so sure they give greater weight to SoCal burgers. Do you think so?

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

Actually, wanderingjew, I mostly agree with you. I think all those things you list ARE California Roadfood. And of course your rant was meant to start a good debate - that's one of the many reasons you have so many fans on Roadfood.com. And you can count me among them.

Burgers: you've probably noticed that the Sterns have a handful of food items that they apparently consider "American Roadfood" rather than regional Roadfood. Things like burgers, hot dogs, turkey dinners... I'm not so sure they give greater weight to SoCal burgers. Do you think so?

Bruce,

You know I have tremendous respect for you and that the Stern's have been my "heroes" for almost 2 decades. And I hope to meet all of you perhaps on the next annual roadfood tour.

I'm not certain if the Stern's have been specifically giving greater weight to So Cal Burgers, or if it' more towards the places that serve them (IE- In and Out, Hodads, Cassells.)


I plan to return to Southern California sometime next year, this time I plan to be there a whole week. Enginecaptain has actually inspired me to try a "Chili Size" other than that I hope to do a Fish Taco throwdown in San Diego as well as a California Roll throwndown in LA (similar to the Cheesesteak one in Philly I did earlier this month) Off topic- I plan to do one later this summer in Detroit with Coneys.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I'm not certain if the Stern's have been specifically giving greater weight to So Cal Burgers, or if it' more towards the places that serve them (IE- In and Out, Hodads, Cassells.)

I think those places you mention have their own reasons for being in Roadfood. I don't think they are there specifically because they serve burgers in California. Cassell's is a local institution, something like the Pink's of burgers. Hodad's represents beach/surfer culture. In 'N' Out... why did they review In 'N' Out? Can't say I personally agree with that choice. Perhaps because it has such a cult following, and it's also regional, though not limited to Cal. And many people say their burgers are much better than the usual fast food burger (I think they're OK, but I'm not a huge fan).

If I were talented, I would write a song a la 'Miss Otis Regrets' entitled 'wanderingjew disagrees' . .

no talent, you just have to realize WJ is frozen in 1974 (1934?)or so and doesn't think the World has changed in the last 30 years.

It's always fun to read what non-Californians write about the state when they haven't been there in many years if ever. California is NOT one monolithic area. LA-'Diego doesn't represent the state any more than NYC is New York state. Once past the mountains north of LA, you in agriculture areas where life is much like the midwest in the small towns. There will be a local burger joint, a Mexican eatery and if the local crop is a fruit there will be a juice stand.
And by the way "wanderingjew", the USA Today article is a great fluff piece that is the opinion of one person. And in MY opinion not very definitive. You can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want and we'll both think we're right. But is nice to see that California had 2 of the 10, and NY,NJ,PA had only 1 which was in Amish country and that's a whole different world.

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King

It's always fun to read what non-Californians write about the state when they haven't been there in many years if ever. California is NOT one monolithic area. LA-'Diego doesn't represent the state any more than NYC is New York state. Once past the mountains north of LA, you in agriculture areas where life is much like the midwest in the small towns. There will be a local burger joint, a Mexican eatery and if the local crop is a fruit there will be a juice stand.
And by the way "wanderingjew", the USA Today article is a great fluff piece that is the opinion of one person. And in MY opinion not very definitive. You can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want and we'll both think we're right. But is nice to see that California had 2 of the 10.

I wasn't referring to California as a whole, I was just referring to Southern California, specifically the Los Angeles area. I know California is extremely diverse as a state and I'm certainly not disputing that.

Regarding the USA Today Article, it may be a fluff piece but I'm not exactly sure how since they're not promoting any restaurant specifically, but I bet the majority on the forum will agree with the signature food items that represented the other cities that were mentioned.

These are four kinds of places selling food and beverages that I don't patronize:
juice bars
smoothie shops
casual teryaki/sushi joints
veggie restaurants

Just don't like the stuff. Anyone publishing a guidebook cannot include everything. Ideally, the authors will leave out those items that the people who tend to gravitate toward their books will not have any interest in.

Can anyone make the case that the majority of the people who read the Roadfood books go often to the four types of establishments from WJ's list?

WanderingJew, I think you are confusing definitions of what road food is. The Sterns have made it clear what their definition is on the home page which is worth repeating here.

Great regional meals along highways, in small towns and in city neighborhoods. It is sleeves-up food made by cooks, bakers, pitmasters, and sandwich-makers who are America’s culinary folk artists. Roadfood is almost always informal and inexpensive; and the best Roadfood restaurants are colorful places enjoyed by locals (and savvy travelers) for their character as well as their menu.

The Sterns have set the definition discussion which differs greatly from what you would find on food discussion sites like Chowhound and eGullet. You desire to bend the definition to regional specialties as a singular criteria such as your continued insistence that lutefisk is road food in Minnesota yet is nearly impossible to find. Juice bars, smoothie shops, casual teryaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants could be road food if it is run by sleeves up culinary folk artist, and is informal, inexpensive, colorful and has character. There is more to road food than the type of food, regionally found food or abundance of food in a region. Hamburger joints tend to lean to the Sterns' definition. Corporate juice bars don't. Regionally prepared foods that fall into Sterns' criteria are road food. Regionally prepared foods that come from sit down, napkin setting, expensive, corporate restaurants are not road food. To me it is not so much the food or type of food but the place. Chances are you will find lutefisk in a road food defined establishment when you come to Minnesota again.

If one ordered a hamburger in the 1950's-1960's in NJ diners and drive-ins, that's what you got....a hamburger on a roll. If you wanted onions (grilled or raw), they were a special request. Condiments (mustard, ketchup, and sometimes mayo) were available on the table or at the counter. However, if you wanted it "dragged through the garden", where it was garnished with lettuce, tomato, onion, and perhaps a couple slices of pickle, then you requested a "California Hamburger". James Beard, in 1941, had a recipe for this "exotic" burger in his book Cook It Outdoors.

What's my point?? Damned if I know. I'm not too sure exactly what the point of this thread is. I do know, for WJ, roadfood has to be represenative of an area's culture. If he's in Phoenix, pizza (no matter how good) will not be on his rota. If there's excellent bbq available to him in, say, Maine, I'm guessing he'd opt for some middle-of-the-road lobster or chowdah. I agree with him....up to a point. As long as I like the local special, I'll certainly give it a try, but I'm never, ever, ever going to eat lutefisk, sushi, menudo, any dish that contains enough cilantro that I can taste it, or blu cheese. On the other hand, if I hear/read about a place in Arab, Alabama that serves up the best Boston baked beans on the planet, then you bet I'm gonna get me some.

Maybe my point is that, in the mid-twentieth century, a California Hamburger was roadfood...even to WJ's standard. However, in my opinion, these days you take great food (roadfood) where you find it and, if it happens to be Key Lime Pie in Anchorage, so be it. pb

quote:

Originally posted by porkbeaks

if you wanted it "dragged through the garden", where it was garnished with lettuce, tomato, onion, and perhaps a couple slices of pickle, then you requested a "California Hamburger".

porkbeaks, that's interesting, I was just thinking the same thing. When we had our first taste of Burger King's Whoppers in the 1960's on Long Island, everyone said the Whopper was a "California-style" burger (all those vegetable toppings). It seemed very exotic at the time. Before that, just about the only burger toppings we knew of were ketchup, cheese, and pickles.

Come to think of it, around the same time, we had a neighbor who grew up in California. When she saw us eating burgers topped with chili, she said back home it was called a chili size (which we thought sounded funny).

I think "old California" has more association with burgers than wanderingjew acknowledges.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

Regarding the USA Today Article ... I bet the majority on the forum will agree with the signature food items that represented the other cities that were mentioned.

See, wanderingjew, there you go again, dragging "the majority on the forum" in to support your viewpoint. You have no idea! At least have the cojones to make your point and stand alone behind it, without conjuring up some "forum majority" to back you up.

I, for one, DO NOT agree that all the signature food items mentioned in the USA Today piece represent the associated cities.

I will second PorkBeaks memories of the California-style Burger being the descriptive term for a "dressed-burger" or one with L and T and other condiments. This was the term used at the HoJo's I worked in during my undergrad years in the mid-60's on I-95 north of Boston. Having just landed in New England after growing up in SoCal, I thought the term odd...until I noticed that the regular Hamburgs were 'bare-bones', served with bun and burger and that's all.

It will help keep this debate 'on-topic' if ALL participants refrain from challenging the personalities of the players...and stick to the subject of the debate.

"Juice bars, smoothie shops, casual teriyaki/sushi joints and veggie restaurants"

I've been here all my old fart life, and all I have to say to the above is "HUH?"

And that is all I'll say about it. I'll let the great pundits from the east get back to defining my culture. We now return you to your normally scheduled definitions blather.

Correct about the "California Burger." We had one on the menu at Howard Johnson's in the late 60's. Mayo on a burger?? Egads! Just shows that good ideas spread fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

Regarding the USA Today Article ... I bet the majority on the forum will agree with the signature food items that represented the other cities that were mentioned.

See, wanderingjew, there you go again, dragging "the majority on the forum" in to support your viewpoint. You have no idea! At least have the cojones to make your point and stand alone behind it, without conjuring up some "forum majority" to back you up.

I, for one, DO NOT agree that all the signature food items mentioned in the USA Today piece represent the associated cities.

I'm replying to my own post just to emphasize to others that it's still all in good fun. I think wanderingjew understands that, but perhaps some others might not. I don't like smileys, so I don't use them, but feel free to insert your own mental smileys wherever appropriate.

I don't like to "insert" anything, even if it is a

I'll respond this evening. I have work to do.

I will say this briefly,

I'm not the one defining anyone's culture, I'm just relaying what the Stern's wrote about- so I guess you can "point the finger"
at them.