Sub Dressing Application

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DawnT
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2010/01/25 00:08:43 (permalink)

Sub Dressing Application

I was in Publix this evening and was watching the guy making a sub for a customer. He was applying a dressing from what looked like a large, institutional sized Beano's type pre-made dressing. I noticed that he kept shaking the bottle as he applied it as to mix the vinegarette. That jogged a memory. Both of the sub places that I worked for years ago in the 70's used to apply the dressing with short shakes on an angle. I don't think that they even squeezed the bottle. They used those big 32oz Tablecraft type clear condiment bottles that looked like big mustard or catsup dispensers. There was a trick to getting the dressing onto the sub and still maintaning the oil/vinegar/herb balance in the bottle. The tip was cut to a particular size to get this right. The bottles were never shook to mix the ingredients IIRC. After saucing a sub, the bottles would still have the oil/vinegar strata and didn't appear mixed or separating out. Moot point, but there must have been something to that. The dressing never left the sandwich prep area. If a customer wanted more dressing, the sub had to be returned. That used to be a big deal. I never remember the subs have so much dressing that it was running off, and the amount of herbs that ended up on the sandwich was pretty sparse. There was just enough to do the sub right. There wasn't anything sacrosanct about these dressings. I know what went into one of them and the other was pretty similar. Just wondering if anyone recalls this from the golden age of the sub shops b4 the national chains forever altered how subs were made or recalls any other peculiarity.
#1

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    Matt Gleason
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/01/29 22:27:02 (permalink)
    Some of these may have been made with a heavy olive oil.
    Even if all the spices sink to the bottom, when you turn the bottle side ways, you will have half oil and half spices at the spout.  An angle cut on the spout positioned up or down determines how much oil and spice mix comes out.
    #2
    DawnT
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/01/29 23:20:04 (permalink)
    First place that I worked for I know used that stinky, greenish Pomace oil for everything. There wasn't any other oil that came into the place and I know for sure it was used in the dressing and the rest of the ingredients. All deep frying was done with those big,white blocks of fry blend shortening. Haven't seen that stuff in a while. One thing that I remember is that the owner's son made them up by the bottle individually. The whole box of bottles would go into the walk-in to let the spices infuse. The spices would mostly fall to the bottom when they were ready. The other place, while I'm not sure what went in, I do know the oil was not olive oil, but that cheap, soybean salad oil that came in those huge rectangular cans you don't see anymore either. First place used yellow, cider vinegar but could also have been that insitutional yellow vinegar that was really white with a carmelizing agent the other place used red wine vinegar, but much less. They were pretty secretive about everything.

    You know, I never noticed if the tips were cut at an angle. The seemingly random way the bottles were picked up and shook leads me to think not if the angle had to be consistant.
    #3
    DawnT
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 01:51:58 (permalink)
    I'm bumping this thread up after making some subs last Saturday. Subs aren't something that I do often and it takes at least a few days or more to get a decent home made dressing seeped. I got hit with this last minute and picked up a bottle of that Beano's I mentioned in the first post when I bought the rolls and cold cuts. Nasty, obnoxious, machine oil that smells rancid is what came to mind after opening it. Taste of the herbs is almost non-existant. Looking over the ingredients, they list soy oil, red wine vinegar, sugar,salt, and spices. The nozzles now have a cap that cover a hole about 6mm. For a little 8 oz bottle, herbs sat about 1 1/2" from the bottom. One thing that I noticed was that it delivered a generous amount of the herbs per shake. Even as the bottle sat, there was quite a bit of herbs suspended and then it dawned on me there was no separation layer between the oil and vinegar. Just oil and herbs. They apparently only use enough vinegar to hydrate the herbs and probably strain it afterwards to prevent a vinegar layer forming on the bottom.

    In the old dressings, you'd get an immediate separation at the boundry. It was hard to get much herbs out and you end up with much more vinegar on the sandwich. With this stuff, it stays suspended and comes out with the oil in proportion. There's something here that needs to be looked into.

    For the heck of it, just to prove the concept. I took a generous amount of italian seasoning mix with some garlic and onion powder and microwaved a small amount of vinegar,sugar, & salt mixed together and poured just enough to moisten and tiny bit more and put it in the fridge overnight. During the day, I took this hydrated mush and added a 50-50 mix of olive and canola oil and set it on my candle warmer (like those cup warmers) for a few hours to get the herb oils to infuse a bit into the oil and then let it cool and put in the fridge. Hydrating the herbs with the salted vinegar gives a noticeable flavor boost to the solids.

    This gives you a lot more solids delivered then the vinegarette very evenly with a lot less fluid. You use much less and don't end up with a sandwich soggy from the vinegar. Next batch is going to be done using the original dressing herbs but adding more salt and msg to the seasoned vinegar to further amp up the hydrated spices. Overall sodium is still very low as it's only in the tiny amount of vinegar in the herbs. Guess we're having subs again soon to try it out. I sure hope this make sense. 
    #4
    MiamiDon
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 06:18:55 (permalink)
    I just looked at the label for the Boar's Head Deli Dressing from Publix. 

    Ingredients: CANOLA OIL, EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL, RED WINE VINEGAR, SPICE, SALT, SUGAR, NATURAL FLAVOR.

    I don't see a line between the liquids in it, either.

    We used to use Lite Kraft Red Wine Vinegar Salad Dressing, but they stopped making it.
    #5
    RodBangkok
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 07:07:57 (permalink)
    This is probably more than you ever wanted to know but anyway:

    http://www.foodproductdes...ns--may-2001--sal.aspx

    Most of the lighter dressings will use a starch and or gum, its actually a carefully balanced thin gelatin when finished properly.  The other way is to add some egg solids and create a real emulsified dressing, but this effects the look of the dressing, and it will not be a clear liquid.  When I make my home dressings I steep all the liquids and solids, this allows for extraction of flavors, and insures you get any solubles like salt in solution.  Then add the oil.  I've never played with gums or starches at home, I'd probably try some gums first, as the starches are very specialized for these applications and any old starch might not work.  Some of the cheaper ones dont even use liquid vinegar, but a vinegar powder that is soluble.  Its better food thru food chemistry that keeps those dressing together, and todays vast offering of flavoring agents in liquid or powder form that gives them most of their flavor.
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    DawnT
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 10:19:35 (permalink)
    Don, the Boar's Head appears to be made by Conroy Foods/Beano too. The labels and facts read exactly the same except for the oil differences and .5oz difference. There's a Dietz and Watson version in the same type of flat bottle that I've seen too. Maybe they are clones, but I doubt it.  Beano's makes a higher spec olive oil version under the name of Rosa's, but Publix doesn't carry it in any of the stores that I go to.

    Rod, there's no need to emulsify or thicken a sub dressing. What I'm looking at here is just the delivery of the solids. I make a creamy italian blender dressing that I use Xantan gum to make a stable and viscous textured dressing using pretty much the same ingredients as my sub dressing with parmesan or romano added. Pectin will work too, but nowhere as well. Besides egg yolk, I've also tried mustard flour/powder that makes a less stable emulsion.

     Some of the specially engineered starches are really neat to work with. I've used Midsol in a chicken breader with great results in texture and especially holding. It's a shame some of these starches, aquaresins,and oleoresins extracts aren't available for home use. You can find Guar gum and Xantan in health food stores.
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    MiamiDon
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 15:27:10 (permalink)
    I found another one in the cupboard:

    America's Choice Submarine Dressing
    Dist. by OnPoint, Inc., Montvale, NJ

    Soybean Oil, Red Wine Vinegar, Salt, Sugar and other assorted Spices
    #8
    DawnT
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/01 16:20:46 (permalink)
    America's Choice /OnPoint is A&P's and their related store brand oem distributor right? I couldn't find the dressing.
    Are there any around here? Haven't seen A&P & their warehouse WEO stores around since the 60's.

    Dietz and Watson sells it as the "Original Hoagie Dressing" from a few searches, but it isn't on their website. 

    Infusions seem to work ok for first efforts. They appear to be rubbing or mascerating their spices. I can still see shards of rosemary in it and there is the distinct after bite in the throat of red pepper and a hint of lemon in the oil layer. That has to be from lemon rhind to get the oils into oil. Common mixture for stretching olive oil in dressings is 90% soy or canola and 10% extra virgin. Don't know if it's the case here. Either way, the hyper saline vinegar w/msg does indeed amplify the solids in the second batch. Surprisingly, Publix's Italian Seasoning blend holds it's own very well here and definitely much better taste then Beano's. I'm going to pick up a Boar's Head version this evening. They're at the deli next to the Beano's for just a few cents more.

    With a few more tries and also trying my own sub blend, it should be easy to come up with a better clone then paying near $3.50 for this.
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    David_NYC
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/04 13:54:32 (permalink)
    DawnT
    America's Choice /OnPoint is A&P's and their related store brand oem distributor right? I couldn't find the dressing.
    Are there any around here? Haven't seen A&P & their warehouse WEO stores around since the 60's.

    Yes, OnPoint is the "trading company" for A&P house brands, which include America's Choice and Master Choice. A&P's stores now only go as far south as Maryland and the District of Columbia (Superfresh).
     
    Most of the chains around here get their private label dressings from the E.D. Smith division of Bay Valley Foods. This firm seems to customize the recipe for different chains, but uses the same shape bottles.
     
    Right now, there is no bottled sub dressing I am happy with. Years ago, my mother made her own with just herbs, salt, sugar, Heinz white vinegar, and Wesson oil.
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    MiamiDon
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/04 14:18:46 (permalink)
    My wife just reminded me that I brought the America's Choice back from NY. (D'oh!)

    I had picked it up at a supermarket in Rye Brook, the name of which escapes me (it used to be Food Emporium), and since I never opened it, I threw it in my luggage.
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    DawnT
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/04 14:36:43 (permalink)
    I put some time into the third, revised mix this afternoon. The seasoned vinegar and herbs are melding right now. Measured everything this time. The herbs and red pepper flakes got several pulses in the spice mill this time around and brought the vinegar to boiling b4 adding the sugar,salt,and MSG. This should give #3 a better dispersion and more even delivery.
     
    Still contemplating what to do with the lemon zest oil infusion. Not sure if I'm going to do it with super heated oil or longer term warm oil. I don't need to get much lemon flavor, just a hint. This batch is going to be the above 10% virgin/90% canola rather then the last 50/50. Either way, #2 batch proved that I could do better then the store bought. Once I get this down, it's time to look at my original dressing again. Right now, I'm just concentrating on getting the proportions right and everything else equal using Italian Seasoning herb blend.
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    David_NYC
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/04 17:35:58 (permalink)
    MiamiDon
    I had picked it up at a supermarket in Rye Brook, the name of which escapes me (it used to be Food Emporium),

    A&P, 261 South Ridge Street
     
    A&P keeps rebranding the supermarkets they bought or already owned in the NYC metro area. Over the last few decades, they bought Shopwell/Food Emporium, Waldbaum's and Pathmark. Waldbaums is now exclusively in the 4 counties that make up Long Island, removing Food Emporium and A&P. All but 1 Food Emporium are in Manhattan; A&P's in Manhattan were rebranded to Food Emporium. The Connecticut Waldbaum Foodmarts became A&P's. A&P built a Waldbaums in Newport - Jersey City, then rebranded it to a A&P.
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    MiamiDon
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/05 07:22:37 (permalink)
    That's the one.  I think, though, that it had some additional words, like "A&P Fresh Market" or something like that.
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    David_NYC
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    Re:Sub Dressing Application 2010/07/05 10:37:27 (permalink)
    Yes, it probably is one of the A&P Fresh Market-concept stores (not to be confused with Greensboro, NC-based The Fresh Market chain). It is A&P's version of the huge supermarkets that have more prepared foods, big deli, fresh seafood counter, floral section, faux supermarket bakery, pharmacy. Older A&P stores are labeled A&P Food Market, Super A&P, and A&P Fresh.
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