The coal miners in WV

Nothing would make my new year better than seeing the faces of the rescued miners. But it seems futile at this point.OSHA really needs to take a HUGE stride in correcting these mine mishaps, here and abroad. Why can't they build escape tunnels which are accessible from all areas? I hope we get some good news soon. Working hard is a virtue that only one type of man can achieve. GOD Bless them.

The reports are certainly ominous.

I get the shakes just reading about them. I won't go into caves anytime anywhere. The larger aircraft provide some'space' but back in the days of flying in Military transports with little or no window-space I would almost go nuts when things started to rattle around on a flight.
I could NEVER be an underground miner!! Our prayers for a safe return of these fellows are as strong as we can make them.

I guess it's a pretty big area where they're trapped but if they're buried under rocks after the explosion, they're in a tough situation. Like i said, it would be sweet if these guys could get home today. I see ICG is literally pooping themselves right now, and the Feds have stepped in. I say blow a *$#@$^&8 hole in there and get these guys out!Carbon Monoxide and Methane is probably limited to a small area of the mine- take a chance! Otherwise, i think there is none.Whether the Miners make it out safely or not, i hope their families are compensated for a lifetime. Sorry, but this stuff shouldn't be happening in our world.Thanks for the replies.

You'd figure they'd start dragging in fresh air intake and exaust hoses down these tunnels to clear these gasses... I hope they all get out of there safely and find some decent lawyers.

It looks bad to me. Seems like all aid has kinda thrown their hands in the air.I know it's a risky operation, but what's next?- carry corpse's out in body bags on thursday? Enough talk- do something! BTW, i'm following this on MSNBC in case anyone's wondering.Something is wrong here imo.

Just an FYI...CNN reported that they've found the body of one of the miners . No word on the others yet.

quote:

Originally posted by jeepguy

It looks bad to me. Seems like all aid has kinda thrown their hands in the air.I know it's a risky operation, but what's next?- carry corpse's out in body bags on thursday? Enough talk- do something! BTW, i'm following this on MSNBC in case anyone's wondering.Something is wrong here imo.

What in the hell are you talking about? Do you think the rescuers are deliberately dragging their feet? What mines in the Chicago area do you work with that make you an apparent expert on the subject? It sounds like your spewing off about a subject that you know absolutely nothing about.

This mine has had numerous citations including citations for accumulation of combustible materials. Lets hope it turns out well.

Butch

Latest report...They think the other 12 miners are alive. Let's all say a prayer that it's true.

quote:

Originally posted by Z66 Butch

This mine has had numerous citations including citations for accumulation of combustible materials. Lets hope it turns out well.

Butch

From what I've read and heard, the investigation is ongoing, but they suspect that lightning may have set off some naturally occurring methane gas.

quote:

Originally posted by saps

quote:

Originally posted by jeepguy

It looks bad to me. Seems like all aid has kinda thrown their hands in the air.I know it's a risky operation, but what's next?- carry corpse's out in body bags on thursday? Enough talk- do something! BTW, i'm following this on MSNBC in case anyone's wondering.Something is wrong here imo.

What in the hell are you talking about? Do you think the rescuers are deliberately dragging their feet? What mines in the Chicago area do you work with that make you an apparent expert on the subject? It sounds like your spewing off about a subject that you know absolutely nothing about.

There are no coal mines in Chicago or Pawleys Island SC, my residences, but during the press conferences over the last two days i heard nothing but smalltalk.Of course the rescuers stayed dilligent and thankfully were rewarded with finding those alive.Maybe the way the media portrayed the situation was the way i "spewed" in my previous post.Glad 12 survived at any rate.

Oh my goodness...
Now they're saying that only ONE miner has survived. How could there be such miscommunication??? Those poor families.. My heart just breaks for them.

Truly upsetting. Can't believe this.

This is totally unbeleivable. The Goverment, Mine Company, pretty much knowing for 3 hours not everyone survived is appalling. At Midnight I was saying a Thank You to the Almighty. 3 hours later I was praying for their familys. I cant beleive they let it go that far and long, especially knowing it was being broadcast world wide. I cant beleive what the familys have had to gone thru thinking all was OK then finding out it was not. My deepest sympathys and prayers go out to all the family and freinds of those miners.

Some serious blunders for sure. This will be in the news for a long time. I just can't imagine hearing the word "YES" only to hear three hours later, NO.What a horrible mistake.

I was watching Leno when they interrupted the program with a special report. I was mortified. What a botched job. The bad communications were unexcusable.

Hello All,
It is a great sorrow, and all our hearts and prayers are surely with the families of the miners. May the one miner
please survive so that there is a speck of joy that comes out of this terrible accident.
Hopefully, in time, we'll find out more about how and why this happened. And maybe something can be done to
prevent such accidents or better life-enabling equipment can be given to miners in case of such accidents, but I doubt it.
Mining is a dangerous job and we don't seem to have a thought about what those people give to us until there is an accident.
Sadly, what I do expect is that in a week we will have forgotten this story. But that is the way it seems to work. So
for now, if you pray or have good wishes for the families involved, ask the god of your heart to be with them beyond our
attention span and outrage.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

quote:

Originally posted by Fieldthistle

Hello All,
It is a great sorrow, and all our hearts and prayers are surely with the families of the miners. May the one miner
please survive so that there is a speck of joy that comes out of this terrible accident.
Hopefully, in time, we'll find out more about how and why this happened. And maybe something can be done to
prevent such accidents or better life-enabling equipment can be given to miners in case of such accidents, but I doubt it.
Mining is a dangerous job and we don't seem to have a thought about what those people give to us until there is an accident.
Sadly, what I do expect is that in a week we will have forgotten this story. But that is the way it seems to work. So
for now, if you pray or have good wishes for the families involved, ask the god of your heart to be with them beyond our
attention span and outrage.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

I don't think You are being negative, I think You are speaking truthfully.

I can remember when I was in Elementary School in the late 1950's and early 1960's, there were many of these types of mining accidents.

In 50 years, there has been plenty of time for the federal Government
to make and enforce laws and rules, that would make these kinds
of accidents impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by garryd451

quote:

Originally posted by Fieldthistle

Hello All,
It is a great sorrow, and all our hearts and prayers are surely with the families of the miners. May the one miner
please survive so that there is a speck of joy that comes out of this terrible accident.
Hopefully, in time, we'll find out more about how and why this happened. And maybe something can be done to
prevent such accidents or better life-enabling equipment can be given to miners in case of such accidents, but I doubt it.
Mining is a dangerous job and we don't seem to have a thought about what those people give to us until there is an accident.
Sadly, what I do expect is that in a week we will have forgotten this story. But that is the way it seems to work. So
for now, if you pray or have good wishes for the families involved, ask the god of your heart to be with them beyond our
attention span and outrage.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

I don't think You are being negative, I think You are speaking truthfully.

I can remember when I was in Elementary School in the late 1950's and early 1960's, there were many of these types of mining accidents.

In 50 years, there has been plenty of time for the federal Government
to make and enforce laws and rules, that would make these kinds
of accidents impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So this is the governments fault, too?

Just an update: Redtressed was asked by the head of the ER at Ruby Memorial to please come in and help run the media center there during the situation involving the care and treatment of the surviving miner. As many of you know, Red used to work in the ER there till she was sidelined by her heart problems. She told me that she spent several hours there handling media demands for information.

Saps, must you be a XxXx about every damn thing? My, but it's tiresome.
Edited for language AB

quote:

Originally posted by saps

quote:

Originally posted by garryd451

quote:

Originally posted by Fieldthistle

Hello All,
It is a great sorrow, and all our hearts and prayers are surely with the families of the miners. May the one miner
please survive so that there is a speck of joy that comes out of this terrible accident.
Hopefully, in time, we'll find out more about how and why this happened. And maybe something can be done to
prevent such accidents or better life-enabling equipment can be given to miners in case of such accidents, but I doubt it.
Mining is a dangerous job and we don't seem to have a thought about what those people give to us until there is an accident.
Sadly, what I do expect is that in a week we will have forgotten this story. But that is the way it seems to work. So
for now, if you pray or have good wishes for the families involved, ask the god of your heart to be with them beyond our
attention span and outrage.
Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

I don't think You are being negative, I think You are speaking truthfully.

I can remember when I was in Elementary School in the late 1950's and early 1960's, there were many of these types of mining accidents.

In 50 years, there has been plenty of time for the federal Government
to make and enforce laws and rules, that would make these kinds
of accidents impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So this is the governments fault, too?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUH

My thoughts and prayers go out to the loved ones of the miners.

That said, why are so many people willing to throw blame at the government whenever something goes wrong in the world? Have we become so dependent on others to make certain our lives go on without sickness, death, or despair? What happened in WV was indeed a tragedy, and I'm certain things could have been done better, but this constant "I'm a victim of government ineptitude" has got to stop. I'm just waiting for the poster to demand for Bush's head over this one.

Aaaah. Much better. Thanks.

If questioning peoples off-the-cuff irresponsible accusations makes me a XxXx, so be it.

-Their hasn't even been a full investigation of the tragedy yet, however garryd451 says that this accident is the federal goverment fault. (I bet, in fact, that this is in someway George Bush's fault as well).

-The initial conjecture is that lightning may have ignited a pocket of naturally occurring methane gas. If this is the case, this would be the federal governments fault? Explain.

-Someone was intimating that the rescuers were dragging their feet and not doing their job. That's fine if you want to do that, but how about at least having some support for that accusation.

Now apparently (according to garry) the federal government has had over 50 years to make and enforce the rules so that these types of accidents would become "impossible". Accidents are exactly what they are- accidents. You can do as much as you can to mitigate them, but the potential for accidents will always exist in some manner. So are you going to tell me that the government has the ability to eliminate all sorts of industrial accidents and just isn't doing it? That seems silly.

It's funny, but you have so many people today saying that the government is too involved and has control over too many things- yet, when there is an accident or a tragedy, the government isn't involved enough. Another poster went so far as to mention the government being at fault in regards to the 3 hour lull in communications.

Sorry about being a dick, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by saps

quote:

Originally posted by Lucky Bishop

Saps, must you be a dick about every damn thing? My, but it's tiresome.

If questioning peoples off-the-cuff irresponsible accusations makes me a dick, so be it.

-Their hasn't even been a full investigation of the tragedy yet, however garryd451 says that this accident is the federal goverment fault. (I bet, in fact, that this is in someway George Bush's fault as well).

-The initial conjecture is that lightning may have ignited a pocket of naturally occurring methane gas. If this is the case, this would be the federal governments fault? Explain.

-Someone was intimating that the rescuers were dragging their feet and not doing their job. That's fine if you want to do that, but how about at least having some support for that accusation.

Now apparently (according to garry) the federal government has had over 50 years to make and enforce the rules so that these types of accidents would become "impossible". Accidents are exactly what they are- accidents. You can do as much as you can to mitigate them, but the potential for accidents will always exist in some manner. So are you going to tell me that the government has the ability to eliminate all sorts of industrial accidents and just isn't doing it? That seems silly.

It's funny, but you have so many people today saying that the government is too involved and has control over too many things- yet, when there is an accident or a tragedy, the government isn't involved enough. Another poster went so far as to mention the government being at fault in regards to the 3 hour lull in communications.

Sorry about being a dick, I guess.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I am glad You are sorry!

I DID NOT say it was George Bush's fault, in fact, I feel the fault goes way back, long before, George Bush! I can't but wonder why people have to assume why I am or anybody elese is always blaming George Bush when we say the Government was wrong. George Bush is only one man, He has only been President for five years, the problems with the safety and/or cave-ins at mines, has been going on for hundreds of years!!!!

I made my opinion after talking to a former coal miner friend of mine, who knows lives in Elkhart Indiana. My friend lived and worked in the area of the tragedy for many many years. I talked to my friend the day before my post, at that time, He told me that over the years that mine was cited many times and in fact, it had enough citations sited against it, it should of been shut down along time ago! He had opportunities to work on that mine but turned them down because of all the saftey violations.

You said I shouldn't blame the Federal Government, If they would of shut it down years ago, the miners wouldn't been in that mine, when the lightning struck, if there were no miners in the mine at the time of the accident, then there would of been no deaths.

Is my thinking that far off?

Just pray for the dead guys. Mining is a very dangerous profession.

My understanding is they are all gone. God bless.

quote:

Originally posted by garryd451

quote:

Originally posted by saps

quote:

Originally posted by Lucky Bishop

Saps, must you be a dick about every damn thing? My, but it's tiresome.

If questioning peoples off-the-cuff irresponsible accusations makes me a dick, so be it.

-Their hasn't even been a full investigation of the tragedy yet, however garryd451 says that this accident is the federal goverment fault. (I bet, in fact, that this is in someway George Bush's fault as well).

-The initial conjecture is that lightning may have ignited a pocket of naturally occurring methane gas. If this is the case, this would be the federal governments fault? Explain.

-Someone was intimating that the rescuers were dragging their feet and not doing their job. That's fine if you want to do that, but how about at least having some support for that accusation.

Now apparently (according to garry) the federal government has had over 50 years to make and enforce the rules so that these types of accidents would become "impossible". Accidents are exactly what they are- accidents. You can do as much as you can to mitigate them, but the potential for accidents will always exist in some manner. So are you going to tell me that the government has the ability to eliminate all sorts of industrial accidents and just isn't doing it? That seems silly.

It's funny, but you have so many people today saying that the government is too involved and has control over too many things- yet, when there is an accident or a tragedy, the government isn't involved enough. Another poster went so far as to mention the government being at fault in regards to the 3 hour lull in communications.

Sorry about being a dick, I guess.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I am glad You are sorry!

I DID NOT say it was George Bush's fault, in fact, I feel the fault goes way back, long before, George Bush! I can't but wonder why people have to assume why I am or anybody elese is always blaming George Bush when we say the Government was wrong. George Bush is only one man, He has only been President for five years, the problems with the safety and/or cave-ins at mines, has been going on for hundreds of years!!!!

I made my opinion after talking to a former coal miner friend of mine, who knows lives in Elkhart Indiana. My friend lived and worked in the area of the tragedy for many many years. I talked to my friend the day before my post, at that time, He told me that over the years that mine was cited many times and in fact, it had enough citations sited against it, it should of been shut down along time ago! He had opportunities to work on that mine but turned them down because of all the saftey violations.

You said I shouldn't blame the Federal Government, If they would of shut it down years ago, the miners wouldn't been in that mine, when the lightning struck, if there were no miners in the mine at the time of the accident, then there would of been no deaths.

Is my thinking that far off?

Right now, regardless of the violations, you can't make a determination as to whether those violations were part of what caused the tragedy.

I think more of the burden falls on ownership than it does on the government. If it were the government's fault, ownership can simply pass the buck and say that "if the government didn't shut us down because we didn't comply with their directives, it's their fault, not ours". That doesn't quite work.

I don't know if the amount of violations is a lot or normal or low for a mine of that size (one article I read said it was normal) and I don't know what it takes to shut a mine down. I do know that mines are inspected at both the state and fed level.

However, ownership has to be held responsible for their holdings. For instance, if a company knowingly doesn't have working fire extinguishers and a fire burns down the company, is it the fire inspectors fault or the management's fault?

Regulators can't be everywhere all the time. You can look at police in the same way. They are there to regulate crime and arrest violators. So if someone shoots and kills someone, is it the shooter who is at fault or the cop working that beat who wasn't in the area at that time?

In most cases, you will never fully eliminate all accidents. This is an unfortunate economic truth. At some point, the costs of mitigating accidents become prohibitive to operating a business. Once the costs outweigh the benefits, the mine shuts down. Somewhere within there, between costs and profits , there is an "acceptable" level of risk built in.

This is a very emotional issue at a critical time. The discussion is healthy, until the name-calling wrecks it. Please try not to let that ruin the ability to post our thoughts without being verbally assaulted.
Thanks to All for your consideration of the feelings of others and the mutual respect for differences of opinion.

AL

Here are my impressions and thoughts:

I grew up and still live in the middle of the coalfields. Coal mining and it's dangers has always been an everyday facet of life here. Frankly, an obituary in the paper of a miner's death in the mine here was just as normal as seeing an obit for some denizen from a nursing home. All that has changed now though, in the past 10 years or so. Most of the mines around Morgantown have shut down, especially those of the mega hugee companies such as Consolidation Coal and Peabody. The abandoned mines and tipples still remain out in the small towns that dot the county, eerily dwarfing the homes and businesses in these villages as much in their stark death, as they did when the rumble of coal in the tipple belts did 25 years ago.


In watching the unfolding of this tragedy, it struck me in how many different roles I've played in such events. I've been the grieving neighbor of a fallen miner. I've been on rescue teams both at the surface and into the mine. I've listened to the remorse and grief of a neighbor who owned several mines where a death has occured. I've worked at a settlement house that serviced the families of a coal company town.(Google Scotts Run) I worked at a trauma center that treated the injured(in fact the one that is the trauma center involved in this tragedy, Ruby Memorial/WVU) I am the sister of the guy who created and developed the WV state office of Military Affairs and Disaster Management, and was director of it for over 30 years.(the military affairs title was added after 9/11). I even interviewed some formerly trapped miners in an article for the college newspaper, back in the dark ages. I was also struck by how many people I know who have roles in this internationally broadcasted event. From the current director of the Disaster management, to the Doctor who triaged at the mine, to the Governor, to the ambulance drivers, to the docs and staff at the trauma center WVUH and St Joseph's hospital folks. Good people all, people all well versed in mining disasters. My point about all this reminiscing is I can get a big picture pretty easily about what all occurred without relying on what someone who is not familiar with the operations, the families and so on that are involved in a mining disaster, is telling me.

One thing people have to understand, that until the experts at Mine safety, OSHA and so on review the citations and violations that the SAgo mine had, no one will know if any of them are contributing factors to what occurred. It's like the resteraunt business, some citations are stupid , nitpicky, obsolete ...........we won't know for a while despite what much of the press is inferring. What happened may be an unavoidable act of God, gross negligence of the company, or even a mistake made within the mine at the time. We gotta wait...

Although I have a cell phone....although I've had scanners, there is a definite downside to them in securing a scene. Especially, since every one and their brother in every economic strata has one, a lot of unauthorized and not -in -the-know people have access to information that should only be heard by qualified personnel. Misinterpretations, misinformation and chaos is now intrinsic to almost every event of this nature , besides the best laid plans, because of this electronic phenomena.


As far as the timing of rectifying of the misinformation...again, it's wait and see. If it is as the press has reported and the families have said, then yes........it was too long. HOWEVER, having been in such situations countless times, I can tell you that when large groups of people (or even a single person) is experiencing mass euphoria or mass grieving, information does not always penetrate the wall of emotion. Again, we really won't know until things have settled down and hindsight comes into play.

As a bit of addendum to all this.............the emotions and actions of the Governor of West Virginia, Joe Manchin, are not photo ops, but the true guy. His family is deeply steeped in the day to day life of coal miners and their issues. He does feel their pain and frustration. I know he and many of his family, some I like, some I can't stand, but I can say unequivocably that the Manchins have always supported the miners and would not betray or use their grief as an ambitious play.

In essence, what I'm saying is don't depend now on what you've seen and heard...........wait and see what plays out.

Keep your thoughts and prayers going for Randall McCloy, the families and communities of the fallen miners and for all those involved in this event.............they surely need 'em......