This kills me!

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Hogbody
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/22 15:35:42 (permalink)
Well Done Scallion
#31
nvb
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/22 17:49:07 (permalink)
I understand what Scallion1 is saying because I have one dish that I will not make to go. It will not leave my restaurant because it is wonderful when fresh and hot, but turns into a tasteless piece of starch when left on the counter waiting for someone to come home to eat it. I do not want someone who did not eat the product as it was intended to be eaten giving it a bad rap.
#32
Ort. Carlton.
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/22 18:05:16 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by dreamzpainter
cold slaw on warm dogs!! slaw served around here is creamy and a lil tangy..


Dreamz,
This is off-thread a whet, but that sounds like it would be good on a livermush sandwich!
Wishing For Crunchability, Ort. Carlton in Sunny Athens.
#33
bassrocker4u2
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/22 23:43:04 (permalink)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny thing: we DO own the food, until we sell it to you. And it's our choice how and to whom we want to sell it. I take pride in my food and my skills. I don't have "tricks" like poking it with toothpicks or pouring griddle grease on it to make it well done, because I think THAT'S unhealthy and unpalatable.
excuse me????? first of all the grease, as you call it CAME from the burger, and is part of the burger. its the part you call 'juice' plain and simple. i merely use it to cook the inside of the burger. the juice runs through the meat(because of the small spat corner slice), not tainting it in any way. not making the burger 'greasy', either. just simply cooking the inside as quickly as the outside. just because you dont understand something, you dont have to knock it.
perhaps some of you have never even attempted to cook a one pound burger, well done. on a char-broiler, use the tooth pick to allow heat to penetrate the center. its not 'tricks' its science. and it sure as heck aint 'quail egg ravioli'!
hey scallion......love ya man!
#34
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/23 09:25:05 (permalink)

Well now, I think that's my point. The object of proper cooking of meat is to keep the "juice" INSIDE the meat. If it's oozing onto the grill, you're going to end up with a dry, grainy burger. And a good bit of the liquid on the grill from cooking burgers is melted beef fat that, inevitably, renders out of the burger. I assume that you're using 80/20 or 85/15 meat, by the way. Drizzling this rendered fat back on the burger sounds horrible to me.
And why would you even TRY to cook a one-pound burger at all? Why even make one? A 10-oz. burger is a huge lump of ground beef; a one-pounder makes no sense to me at all. If you and your clients like well-done burgers, you'd be better off making wider, thinner burgers that would cook quicker without being mutilated.
The issue of why anyone would eat a well-done burger is a separate issue, one that strays into the area of taste rather than technique. As I tried to take pains to explain, I believe that everyone has his rights, no matter how repellent I find the manner in which they exercise them. And in this area, as the Romans said, de gustibus non disputandum est: taste is not to be disputed.










#35
1chef
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 13:22:22 (permalink)
Why would anyone running a business not want to give a paying customer what they want? Your not going to make any more money off that item if they eat it the way you like it.
Maybe explain to them that if its cooked past a certain point, you won't be responsible for them not liking it. or not paying for it.
Otherwise, it sounds like a great way to loose a customer.
#36
kareno
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 14:05:17 (permalink)
"But there are some things that I find distasteful. If I made ravioli with handmade pasta and filled it with artisanal ricotta and quail eggs, and you asked me to hold the sage butter sauce and put some good ol' ketchup on it, you wouldn't get it. My business, my food, my choice. Take it or leave it. I'm not allowed to, or would I ever, discriminate against customers because of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, handicapped status or age. That's a given, that's the Constitution, that's why I live in this country. But on an ad hoc, or ad hominem, basis, I'm free to do as I please. That's ALSO my right. "


You just come off as a totally wack-o chef who looks at food as their 'art'. " /> The only food 'snobs' I have known over the years, didn't succeed at their own businesses very long, BECAUSE the customers left w/out having a meal THEY enjoyed. Many of them were 'high scale'/gourmet food chefs. (several now work in larger hotel chain kitchens)

I take the raw materials and give it a form (my recipe), but a customer is WELCOME to take my luscious filet mignon and smother it with catsup (or any other darn thing I have in my place) as long as he/she walks out, pays their bill, is happy and let's others know they had a meal they enjoyed.
#37
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 17:10:27 (permalink)
If you want to start calling names, and make this personal, just say so, and I'll be only too glad to tellyou what YOU sound like, okay?

I take pride in my work. If I were serving filet, I wouldn't have ketchup available. That's my privilege, something that despite my repeated statements of that fact you somehow fail to understand.

I don't work for a chain. I work for myself. My clientele comprises the most sophisticated consumers of food that I've ever met, people who've eaten everywhere and know what they're talking about. They pay me VERY good money to cook for them, they appreciate what I do and whatever "art" I bring to the table (your word, not mine, although it's a word frequently used by my clients).

Now that's all I have to say on this subject, except that if you want to get into a pissing contest with me, make sure that you know what you're talking about.

And before you do that, why not try to brush up on your grammar and spelling for a start?
#38
nvb
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 19:18:16 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by kareno


You just come off as a totally wack-o chef who looks at food as their 'art'.


That statement is a little "wack-o" to me. As an owner I wished I had someone that cared enough about their work as Scallion sounds like.

My cook just wants his paycheck on the last day of the work week. Doesn't give a damn how the plate looks. Doesn't care if he saves me money or not. Doesn't give a crap that he didn't prepare correctly for the Friday lunch run. He's a short order cook that just slings food and has no idea that some folks might enjoy something that looks just a little better than what the guy down the street is serving. He only does it my way cause I stay on his ass and pay him better than he can make elsewhere. He needs the job.

So, since I have a plate that I won't send out, that must make me a wack-o too? After all, give the customer what they ask for and don't give a crap after delivery. Not in my store. My customers know that I'm a picky SOB and they seem to like that about me, and it seems to be good for my business. If I could afford someone like Scallion I do it in a second.

Sorry, I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread now.
#39
chezkatie
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 19:25:30 (permalink)
I have one thing to say. I wish that there were many more restaurant owners like you out there. When you start catering to every little whim of a non knowing customer, you might as well own a "chain food restaurant"

Stick to your standards of what you want a restaurant to be and you will find your customers (and they will be good customers).
#40
-Tricky-
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 19:40:19 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by chezkatie

I have one thing to say. I wish that there were many more restaurant owners like you out there. When you start catering to every little whim of a non knowing customer, you might as well own a "chain food restaurant"

Stick to your standards of what you want a restaurant to be and you will find your customers (and they will be good customers).


Agreed. You can't be all things to all people. If guests want to slather their filet in ketchup, fine, but not in my restaurant. If they want the dish that they had at the restaurant across the street, fine, but not in my restaurant. If guests want deep-fried tuna, fine, but not in my restaurant.

When you own a business, you get to make "the rules." Certainly you want to make rules that encourage repeat business, but ultimately, the decisions on what is served and how it's sold is up to the owners, managers and chefs of that restaurant. We don't go to Target and complain "I like the Martha Stewart bath curtains. I want you to carry them." Instead, we go to K-Mart.

Restaurants are no different.
#41
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/26 21:41:25 (permalink)
Thank you, Slick, chezkatie, Tricky, for understanding my point of view. I was beginning to think I'd lost my mind. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a prima donna. I got my start cooking in bars, and worked my way up to some fairly exalted positions, but I don't think I ever forgot where I came from.
I've been wondering why I reacted so strongly to kareno, apart from the fact that she was both wrong and rude. Took me a while.
My first real cooking job was at The River Cafe in Brooklyn. After a year or so in garde-manger and general utility player, I was promoted to the day fish station. I wouldn't have dared call myself a poissonier. The chef, a tough Belgian who'd worked in a number of three-star restaurants in Paris, pretty much left me to my own devices, so long as the mise-en-place was correct and the fish was properly cooked. So I got a copy of Saulnier - Le Repertoire de la Cuisine - and started cooking my way through the fish section for my daily specials. Heaven only knows what I thought I was doing; I surely didn't know, for example, that the cream used in those recipes to tighten a sauce was twice as thick as American, and I had to re-do a lot of watery sauces.
Anyway, one day a waiter comes in and says that a guest of the owner, with whom he hoped to do business, was sitting in the dining room. Turned out to be Mr. Marriott himself. He ordered the fish special, which I can only remember being striped bass. Maybe Duglere, as that's early in the alphabet.
So I found the most beautiful piece of bass in my drawer, put it in to poach, checked my sauce, made sure the rice was hot and fluffy, cooked some fresh haricots and had my garnish ready. At the appointed time I lifted the perfectly-cooked bass from its nage, dried it off, and plated it. I had the waiter standing by. The chef came by and checked, and gave me a quick smile.
The table was served, and I stopped shaking. The owner called the chef out to meet Mr. Marriott. A few minutes later he came back, with a wicked grin on his face. "Ah, mon petit, M. Marriott says the bass is delicious. He loves it. Of course, the first thing he did was cover it in ketchup, like a hamburger."
I was distraught, furious, embarrassed and generally miserable. The chef took me out after service and got me drunk, and that was the end of that.

So now you know why I wouldn't have ketchup in my restaurant.

Thanks for listening,
Bill
#42
1chef
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/27 01:30:52 (permalink)
If you don't mind,what restaurant do you own?
Location?
#43
dreamzpainter
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/27 07:16:25 (permalink)
"Ah, mon petit, M. Marriott says the bass is delicious. He loves it. Of course, the first thing he did was cover it in ketchup, like a hamburger."
I was distraught, furious, embarrassed and generally miserable. The chef took me out after service and got me drunk, and that was the end of that.

So now you know why I wouldn't have ketchup in my restaurant.

Thanks for listening,
Bill and now we know why my wife always has a handful of ff ketchup packets in her pocket book
#44
bassrocker4u2
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/27 07:18:04 (permalink)
i go through similar situations. my steak fries take 2 days to make. they are seasoned to perfection. so yea, i get a bit of blood rush through my veins, and my temperature rises some, when someone ask for salt, or something else. but i remember, the bills i got to pay.
its different, being the chef and the owner and the dishwasher and the prep cook and the bookkeeper and the janitor and the mantainence man and more. you just smile, and say thank you. if i were a gazillionair, and had the personality of a frill pick, maybe i would refuse to give that customer salt. hhmmm.
i personally understand that i am not the all powerful all knowing king of the world. this alone, makes me a better man. i got 2 recepies for ya.....high horse pudding, and humble pie.
eat all you want, its free.
#45
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/27 08:25:35 (permalink)
man, talk about personality. you can't respond to anything you don't agree with without getting personal and calling names?

but i guess if you're the dishwasher and the janitor in addition to all your other duties, you've got reason to be bitter. somewhere you must understand that if you knew what you were doing you'd be able to make enough money to delegate some of those responsibilities. of course, the problem would be figuring out which of them you're suited for.

and two days to make steak fries? how long does it take you to make something a little more advanced?

seems to me it's the dishwasher/janitor who should be eating that humble pie. probably wouldn't take you more than a week to bake one.

#46
kareno
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/27 19:25:01 (permalink)
Originally posted by Scallion1

Don't have to get into a 'pissing match' with you
As with you, I call it as I 'see' or read it. Being in fine dining for 22 years, I stand by what I said above. Certainly you can deny a customer a condiment, but that customer will indeed remember that you seem to know more about their taste than they do. Seems ridiculous to alienate customers over their personal tastes.

Additionally, while my spelling didn't pass through spell check, apprently neither did yours
#47
bassrocker4u2
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/28 06:31:48 (permalink)
hey, i didnt start this bashing. you did, scallion. when someone makes a suggestion to help someone else, and you criticize that suggestion to death, yes, it will be perceived as a personal attack. the objective of this forum is for us all to help each other, and you, always manage to bash any suggestions made by others (just reviewing some of you other posts). at some point, we all wait for the moderators to come in and kick some butt! shame on you
#48
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/28 08:37:53 (permalink)

No,I don't think so. Whether my opinions were negative or not - and you might notice that I said, early on in this thread -

"So, lest I be misunderstood: I'm NOT calling names here, nor do I wish to insult ANY fellow posters. I'm merely defending my right to run my business, and prepare my food, in accordance with the law of the land and the basic principles of food safety.

- I take pains NOT to make it personal. If your little feelings are hurt because I criticized your toothpick-poking and spatula-slicing, juice-dripping methods of cooking, well, sorry, but that's too bad. Get over it. Let's find any prominent chef you respect, or, better still, a health inspector or an instructor at a well-established culinary school, and let him or her comment on your "secrets."

And aren't you the poster who thinks it's appropriate to describe other posters as "negative responding idiots" while my rhetoric runs more toward "This isn't going to be a pleasant post, so let me say that I wish you the best of luck and mean no disrespect."

All I've ever said is that I reserve the right to serve the food that I've bought and paid for in any appropriate, sanitary method I choose. That's it. You may not like my taste in cooking. You may think I'm a lousy businessman. But as long as I obey the laws regarding discrimination - I never make decisions based on race, sex, religion, etc. - and the health codes and pay my damn taxes, the rest is only your opinion, to which you're entitled. As am I to mine.

We could, of course compare our resumes or our bank balances or our reviews, but that's not the point. Say what you want to say, I'll say what I want to say. I don't waste my time pulling punches, but I don't make personal attacks. I suggest you stop whining and adopt a similar attitude.

Please feel free to alert the forum moderators to review our respective postings. Or don't: I will. Let's see who they find to be more personally offensive. I can't wait.

#49
Adjudicator
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/28 09:31:32 (permalink)
OK CHILDREN, behave now.
#50
WaffleHouserules
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RE: This kills me! 2005/05/28 10:45:16 (permalink)
I like mine well done, but I wont go all crazy if theres a little pink in the middle. That pink cannot harm you at all. Some people are so used to BK and McD's that they dont know what a real Hamburger looks like or tastes like.
#51
angielynnscott
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 09:34:10 (permalink)
You got that right[V
quote:
Originally posted by SouthHillbilly

I had no idea that chefs felt so much like they "own" the food. I thought it was called the "food SERVICE" industry. That means as a customer, you are to give me "service." If I want my steak, burger, tuna or whatever well done, you should be prepared to give it to me that way. I'm not asking you to create some monsterous dish out of three other dishes. What you SHOULD be doing is protecting me from getting any kind of illness from the food you prepare. that means making sure my ground beef is thoroughly cooked, that you employees are clean AND disease free, that your food is fresh and handled in a safe manner.
Wow, some prima donnas here. . . but then, it's a difficult show to balance being a culinary artist and a member of the food service industry. . . only the best achieve that well.
#52
angielynnscott
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 09:38:09 (permalink)
Most of you seem kind of primadonnaish[|)]
#53
nvb
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 09:47:33 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by angielynnscott

Most of you seem kind of primadonnaish[|)]


Could be why we still have an open sign at the front of our restaurant.
#54
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 10:50:58 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by angielynnscott

Most of you seem kind of primadonnaish[|)]


seems like everyone's a little primadonnaish (what lovely english) to you me, the other posters on this board, your husband.

maybe, if you're looking for the source of your problem, you should try a new approach. like looking in a mirror.
#55
-Tricky-
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 10:58:55 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by Scallion1


seems like everyone's a little primadonnaish (what lovely english) to you me, the other posters on this board, your husband.

maybe, if you're looking for the source of your problem, you should try a new approach. like looking in a mirror.


Nothing any of these people have suggested is off the wall, except maybe refusing to cook something well-done. While I prefer medium-rare steak and tuna, there are times when they should be ordered well-done. The medical community (in what may be an overreaction) suggests that pregnant women not eat either thing any less than well-done. I'm not pregnant, haven't been pregnant, but if I ever were, I doubt that I'd go the entire time without eating a steak or a piece of tuna. In that case, I'd order it well-done; well-done would be better than not at all. I still wouldn't slather it in ketchup or steak sauce, I'd just be remembering how much better it would taste less cooked.

Other than that, all of the posters in this thread have been saying is that they have standards and aren't catering to a customer-base which doesn't appreciate those standards.
#56
Michael Hoffman
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/02 11:16:26 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by Scallion1

If I made ravioli with handmade pasta and filled it with artisanal ricotta and quail eggs, and you asked me to hold the sage butter sauce and put some good ol' ketchup on it, you wouldn't get it.

Having grown up in the food business -- my father was a "Purveyor Of Fine Meats To The Restaurant And Hotel Industry" (well, thats what it said on the sides of the trucks) -- and having the opportunity to be exposed to chefs of all stripes I think you're all whacko. And for that I thank you. You have to be to do what you do, deal with crazy customers, and still insist on turning out products that please the living hell out of us.

Now, if I promise not to try to substitute ketchup for the sage butter sauce, would you please explain how you use the quail eggs with the ricotta in your ravioli? It sounds decadent, and I'm always in the mood for decadence.
#57
Scallion1
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/04 00:32:41 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

quote:
Originally posted by Scallion1

If I made ravioli with handmade pasta and filled it with artisanal ricotta and quail eggs, and you asked me to hold the sage butter sauce and put some good ol' ketchup on it, you wouldn't get it.

Having grown up in the food business -- my father was a "Purveyor Of Fine Meats To The Restaurant And Hotel Industry" (well, thats what it said on the sides of the trucks) -- and having the opportunity to be exposed to chefs of all stripes I think you're all whacko. And for that I thank you. You have to be to do what you do, deal with crazy customers, and still insist on turning out products that please the living hell out of us.

Now, if I promise not to try to substitute ketchup for the sage butter sauce, would you please explain how you use the quail eggs with the ricotta in your ravioli? It sounds decadent, and I'm always in the mood for decadence.
#58
sho4go
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/04 10:18:35 (permalink)
This is an extremely interesting thread, especially given some of the fireworks that it has set off. I am not the chef in my establishment; I am the front-end/bookkeeper/human resources guy. My wife is the culinary artisan (my moniker for her, not hers, but she refuses to be called a chef because she lacks the resume). I understand the need to satisfy the consumer even though I believe that some of their requests are inane, ketchup for quiche, sub fruit for tortilla chips on taco salad, etc., etc. However, I also strongly feel that what you don’t serve or don’t provide can be just as important to the identity of your establishment as what you do serve or provide. I appreciate that on this board there are obviously contributors that come from a wide range of stations in this realm. Scallion 1, I would assume is operating a fine dining establishment in a locale that provides him the customer base that he needs to be successful offering high-end cuisine that he provides to patrons with educated palates. Slick runs a BBQ/Grill operation in a very small (but growing) community, offering good food at reasonable prices, primarily at lunch to all-comers. Now, Slick is no less of a food service operator than Scallion 1, he serves different food to a different clientele in a different locale. His business decisions are based on a totally different set of parameters. He will not ever see the check average that Scallion 1 will enjoy. But, God bless him, he can appreciate Scallion 1’s point of view (as do I). And for those of us who live and breath in small towns, I would hope that Scallion 1 would recognize that just because we sometimes have to wear all of those hats (janitor, busboy, dishwasher) in order to keep the doors open, we are no less valid operators. If we didn’t there wouldn’t be any restaurants in small towns across the U.S. (and trust me on this, as government burdens employers with more and more responsibility there will be less and less of us). The point I am trying to make is that everyone’s opinion is borne of some element of experience or circumstance and we should try to appreciate that and glean what we can from the advice offered when it is applicable to our particular situation without resorting to arrogance and name calling.

Bill in East Texas
#59
Michael Hoffman
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RE: This kills me! 2005/06/04 11:15:32 (permalink)
quote:
Originally posted by Scallion1

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

quote:
Originally posted by Scallion1

If I made ravioli with handmade pasta and filled it with artisanal ricotta and quail eggs, and you asked me to hold the sage butter sauce and put some good ol' ketchup on it, you wouldn't get it.

Having grown up in the food business -- my father was a "Purveyor Of Fine Meats To The Restaurant And Hotel Industry" (well, thats what it said on the sides of the trucks) -- and having the opportunity to be exposed to chefs of all stripes I think you're all whacko. And for that I thank you. You have to be to do what you do, deal with crazy customers, and still insist on turning out products that please the living hell out of us.

Now, if I promise not to try to substitute ketchup for the sage butter sauce, would you please explain how you use the quail eggs with the ricotta in your ravioli? It sounds decadent, and I'm always in the mood for decadence.



It seems you either shot a blank or you were refusing to tell me how you use the quail eggs with the ricotta.
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