Too early for college football? ('09 Version)

saps


The fact is that all of these schools bend their standards to let talented athletes in. 

Just to be clear, that schools bend their standards to let all sorts of talented students in their school, not just athletes.
 
Not only do they let students in with particular talents, but they offer scholarships as well.  
 
Music students, for example. Many schools with conservatories, like Indiana (a school with a very good academic reputation) allows gifted musicians into the university, even with low grades in other academic areas and less than stallar SAT scores. They even offer full-rides with a successful audition or financial need.
 
Other schools offer scholarship money for playing in the school's band, even if you don't major in music. Maybe that's equatable to work study, but the point is they get the money because of their special talent, not just their willingness to work.
 
Athletes do, in fact, bring a large amount of money into a div. 1 school. And they are compensated for their effort with a full scholarship. Each student-athlete has the opportunity to squander that education, or put it to use. Some coaches and schools do better than others at leading them to academic success. And that effort should be applauded. But ultimately, the onus is on the individual athlete to make college a worth-while endeavor or not - the same as the rest of the student population.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Who would have thunk my prestigious University of Cincinnati Bearcats would be ranked so high? And on top of that they have a better Architecture program than Notre Dame.

Scorereader

saps


The fact is that all of these schools bend their standards to let talented athletes in. 

Just to be clear, that schools bend their standards to let all sorts of talented students in their school, not just athletes.
 
Not only do they let students in with particular talents, but they offer scholarships as well.  
 
Music students, for example. Many schools with conservatories, like Indiana (a school with a very good academic reputation) allows gifted musicians into the university, even with low grades in other academic areas and less than stallar SAT scores. They even offer full-rides with a successful audition or financial need.
 
Other schools offer scholarship money for playing in the school's band, even if you don't major in music. Maybe that's equatable to work study, but the point is they get the money because of their special talent, not just their willingness to work.
 
Athletes do, in fact, bring a large amount of money into a div. 1 school. And they are compensated for their effort with a full scholarship. Each student-athlete has the opportunity to squander that education, or put it to use. Some coaches and schools do better than others at leading them to academic success. And that effort should be applauded. But ultimately, the onus is on the individual athlete to make college a worth-while endeavor or not - the same as the rest of the student population.
 

 
 
Right.  But some colleges are better at providing students resources and help to make that scholarship work.  Many athletes and others that have been allowed in are not ready for the rigors of college.  Those that get a scholarship and preferential treatment (ie their class attendance isn't monitored) aren't going to do well.  Some need the monitoring and tutoring to get through the college.
 
Case in Point, the University of Minnesota, where I finished my undergrad, does a horrific job with their athletes.  They have had scandal after scandal, with tutors getting busted for writing papers for athletes (I believe that was during Clem Haskins' tenure), paying athletes (they weren't busted on this, but there was one particular quarterback in the mid-to-late 80's who came from a poor family in South Carolina and had quite the automobile, and I believe he was recruited by Lou Holtz), and had trash like McKinley Boston, now the AD at New Mexico.  For more on him: http://parsingthewac.blogspot.com/2008/03/mckinley-boston-college-athletes-best.html
 

  
  
  
  
  
 

Two of my kids went to the University of Minnesota (and one to U of Wisconsin Madison) and I thought the U of MN did a horrific job with all students as far as guidance goes. However, not all University of Minnesota quarterbacks were bad. Tony Dungy was a pretty good University of Minnesota quarterback and graduate.

I'm not saying the QB's were bad.  This QB was Rickey Foggie, who was a good college QB, and I think he had a pretty good career in the CFL.  But in college, I don't think he had the money for a fully loaded 300ZX, with a major league stereo system that I could hear from my third floor apartment in Dinkytown, and he even had vanity plates that read "THE FOG", back in the days when there were very few vanity plates in MN.  He was recruited by Holtz.

I recant my statement about the U of M paying atheletes- I don't know if that happened.  But I don't believe that Foggie could afford such a car on his own.

By the way, Adam Weber is horrible.  We do have a cool new stadium, finally.

I definately agree that some schools do better than other (I even said that in my post you quoted). However, students need to take ownership of their own education, as well.
at Penn State, for example, yes, there are requirements put on by the coaches that promote the academics; however, the students are also taught to take ownership of their educational endeavors. To seek help on their own, to recognize their own weakness and strengths and get help where needed, and help other when you can.

That, to me, is an important lesson - teaching a student (any student) how to take ownership of their own education. It's not a lesson that is quantified by any statistical information provided about any college or athletic program.

So, yeah, some schools do better than others. But in the end, students are responsible for their own education. Some schools are more proactive in forcing the hand of students, but students can, and should, take ownership of their own needs. They do it on the football field, they can do it in the classroom.

No one told me to practice my horn 2-3 hours per day, and no one forced me to practice at all. but I was in an envirnment where that's what everyone did. So I did it too. I saw what it took to get into the top ensembles, and I worked to get there. some classes I blew off, some classes I made sure I didn't. It's obvious by my grades which are which. In the end, the choices I made are reflected in the opportunities that I've enjoyed and the opportunities I haven't been able to enjoy.

I know some people would rather see minor league football than these football driven schools, but honestly, for the individual, they're better off in school, than in a minor league program. Since such a small percentage of them will make it to the NFL, they're better off with this  NCAA system. But that's another dialogue altogether.



 

I fully agree with you.  Regardless of the resources provided, they have to want to be educated and they need to realize the opportunity that they are being given.

Some schools are better at leading them to the water, but it's the students choice to drink. 

Does this mean we agree on something?

ok, so who is the most under rated and over rated football teams in the the BSC Top 10 right now?? My picks are;

Over Rated: TCU (USC a close second)
Under Rated: Alabama (I think they are going to put a hurtin' on UF)

overrated- Boise State

Underrated- I think Penn State should be in that top ten

saps


I fully agree with you.  Regardless of the resources provided, they have to want to be educated and they need to realize the opportunity that they are being given.

Some schools are better at leading them to the water, but it's the students choice to drink. 

Does this mean we agree on something?

It seems we do.  huh...what ever happened?

It may not be good.  It could be one of the signs of the apocalypse. 

saps


overrated- Boise State

Underrated- I think Penn State should be in that top ten

uh oh. we don't agree again. -well, 1/2 way.
 
As a Penn Stater, I don't think we're top ten. Not after that Iowa loss. If we can win out from here, I'll recant that and say we earned a top ten spot. Right now, not so sure.
 
On the other hand, looking at ACC teams and their rankings, maybe I'm off base  and PSU is top ten.
 
I think we're a 12-16 team right now. Wins over Mich, OSU and Mich State will go a long way to change my mind.
 
If we get a second loss, I'd say we're a #18 team. Ranked, but not elite. If we can end the season with that lone loss?... well, I'll take the top ten nod at that point.
 
Then again, looking around the top ten, I could be wrong.
 
Agree with Boise State, though. They have been top ten material in the past, but I haven't seen it yet this season. Top 5? no way!!!
 
I think CinCin is overrated, too. A terror for the Big East, but a #5 seed? Considering they'll win out in my estimations, and UF or Alabama HAS to lose, and Texas could lose one, are they really going to have CinCin knocking at the National Championship door?
 
I don't know how they can bump Oklahoma down to #25 after losing to Texas by 3 lousy points. If U of Okla is really only #25, Texas should drop to below Iowa - but no one will do that with CinCin in the #5 spot - which is why I think Iowa should move up, CinCin move down.
 
Miami is probably a bit over ranked.  VaTech destroyed them. And yes, VaTech loss to GaTech, who lost to Miami. But I'd put all three in the 12-18 range. Is the ACC really that strong? they haven't proved it - Big Ten keeps getting knocked for being weak, but what has the ACC done to show it's  that strong?
 
And USC is over ranked. They beat OSU, so far. and a#24 and #25. I think they're getting too much credit. They struggled v. a ND who is no longer ranked due to the loss. If they're top 5, then if PSU beats OSU, PSU should be right next to them (provided PSU remains at one loss), and Iowa should be on top of USC at this point. I don't think Iowa is getting enough credit - and I think USC is getting too much credit. I say Iowa #5, USC #6, with CinCin below that. - which would mean PSU should be closer to top ten than I stated above, but again, I'm reserving a top ten spot for PSU for a few more wins. Truth is, PSU looked awful offensively vs Iowa, except opening TD and one series which gave us 3 pts.  
 
How's that for not very clear, with a bit of waffling?
 

oh yeah, and in the Big 12, can someone tell me why Kansas is ranked but Tex Tech isn't? Kansas lost to Colorado and hasn't beat ranked team.
Tex Tech has only lost to ranked teams and beat a #15 Nebraska (who fell out of the polls due to the loss)

Basically, because OKla is 3-3 and out of the polls, the Big 12 is no longer highly regarded? I would think a Big 12 5-2 team would be higher ranked than an ACC 5-2 team (VaTech). But that's me.

I think your post underscores what a wide open year this year this is.  I don't really know what to make of Iowa, with the Big Ten not looking like much of a power this year.  The way the Big Ten is going this year, PSU could win out or just as easily lose to Michigan State.  When you've got a bad Purdue team upsetting OSU, anything can happen.
 
I think you're right about USC right now, but they are one of those teams that will continue to improve throughout the year.

Who knows what will happen.

I think Iowa is the real deal. the best Iowa team I've seen since their Rose Bowl appearances in the 80s, and in some ways, I think they're better than those Hayden Fry teams - and the best Ferentz team, too. Keep in mind, this is basically the same team as last year, who ended strong with wins over PSU and South Car in the Outback Bowl. Despite their record, they may have ended the season as the best in the Big Ten, even though it took them some losses to get there.

My neighbor is a Hawkeye, so I've watched most of the Iowa games this year.  It may be that I'm so confused that I don't know what good is anymore, plus, with all of his screaming, it may be that I associate Iowa with pain and hearing loss.

plb

the ancient mariner


I have a new idea -----add the College's rate of graduating scholarship athletes to on field scores.  See where the Big guys come out. 

UND 95% graduation rate + 27 points = 122 total------blow out over
USC 52%     ''             "      + 34 points =   86 total

We win and so do the kids who go to ND. 

 
Note that most schools with high graduation rates are private schools.  Expensive private schools have much higher graduation rates for both athletes and regular students.   Because of the high tuition and because most of their students come from well-to-do and well-connected families, these schools rarely give any failing grades.  That makes USC’s rate very surprising.
 
And why is a high graduation rate considered a sign of high academics anyway?  I would think that the harder a school is, the lower the percentage that would be able to graduate.    

plb,

I know you mean no offense, and none taken. My daughter is going to Notre Dame on an academic scholarship. I can't speak for any other school, but ND is "needs blind" when deciding who gets in. As one alumnus put it to me when we were going through the process, "Apply. If we want her and she wants us, money won't stand in the way. It never has. We will make it happen." If it wasn't for that, she wouldn't have gone there.

Students at Notre Dame (including student athletes) are not just smart; they are highly motivated as well. They are competitive. They work hard. My daughter passes Claussen 3 times a week on his way to class; the football players go to class. My daughter works hard; she wants to be #1. She gets mad when she gets a 97.


Believe me, ND gives failing grades. The difference is that they address the issues head on. Notre Dame goes out of their way to keep students from falling behind academically; that is good educational practice and good business. I think any worthwhile university would do this. There is a lot of money involved, either coming in from the student or going out to the student. And the pressure is from ther student side as well; they are either spending, borrowing, or getting a lot of money; there is no excuse to not crack the books, hard. If a student is identified as needing help, their advisor contacts them and sets them up with tutoring and extra help. As I said, these kids are motivated. They will sit and drill the material until the light bulb goes on. That goes for the football players as well, according to my daughter. Most of the football players at ND know that they won't be pros, and if they do become pros the odds are stacked against them; they know that the prize is the degree.

I wasn't much of a Notre Dame fan, not of the team nor of the school, not until we went out for the Orientation. It was then that I discovered the difference. These people really believe that they are going to change the world, with their hearts and their minds, one person at a time. And they don't think the job is too big, or too hard, or to anything; they think that it needs to be done, so they should do it. And they recruit students who believe the same way. And then they let things take their course. After that, anything is possible.

Another week of nail biting.  This week ND takes on Boston College a
team we can never beat-------maybe tomorrow is the day!

Oh, by the way, Scorereader, I am not a sore loser, I was thrilled that ND made
USC fight right down to the last second.  I watched the game expecting ND to be
blown out of the water just like last year----so the outcome was great ------- it could have been a lot greater if we had tied and gone on to win in OT but, under the circumstances, I was thrilled.
 
Mosca that is a lovey post-----it's good to have you on our side.  Go Irish !!!!!!!!

PSU vs Michigan this weekend.  I'll have to wear gloves, or I'll probably bite my nails down to my knuckles.
 
Ditto on the Mosca post. 

Alabama eeked one out luckily against Tennessee and Florida won one barely last week against Arkansas thanks to the officials. They won but one wonders how good they really are given they seldom venture out of the southeast to play anyone.

Man there's been some wild games today...I'm watching this Miami/Clemson game right now....

I think I've sprained my thumb using the remote & trying to keep up with the 4th Qtr./OT action in the Tenn/Bama, BC/ND & Clemson/Miami games. A great afternoon of college football!

Davydd


Alabama eeked one out luckily against Tennessee and Florida won one barely last week against Arkansas thanks to the officials. They won but one wonders how good they really are given they seldom venture out of the southeast to play anyone.

The rest of the country should feel fortunate they don't have to face SEC teams on a regular basis.  pb

The rest of the country can't play SEC teams, because SEC teams are too busy beating up on Charleston Southern, Louisiana Lafayette, FIU, and other Florida Atlantic, or any other crap non-conference team that resides in the South.

When they do play a somewhat quality team:

3-3 UCLA over Tennesee
6-1 Oklahoma State over Georgia
3-5 Army over Vanderbilt
7-1 Ga. Tech over Miss. St.
5-1 Houston over Miss. State

Alabama over 5-2 Va. Tech
Auburn over 6-1 W. VA

Is Notre Dame trying to give cardiac arrest to its alumni?   How many games can they play going down to the last minute to decide an outcome?

I hear you talking Dave------I am pooped !!!!!

#3 son was at the game, he waved a few times, did you see him ?  He had a
Blue ND Jacket and hat on.

Scorereader


I think Iowa is the real deal. the best Iowa team I've seen since their Rose Bowl appearances in the 80s, and in some ways, I think they're better than those Hayden Fry teams - and the best Ferentz team, too. Keep in mind, this is basically the same team as last year, who ended strong with wins over PSU and South Car in the Outback Bowl. Despite their record, they may have ended the season as the best in the Big Ten, even though it took them some losses to get there.

After yesterday's nailbiter in East Lansing the Hawkeyes are 8-0 for the first time in school history, which kind of surprises me.  I remember the '80s teams (was in school in Iowa from '81-'85) and would've expected one of them to have accomplished that feat.

What's important, though, is that once-defeated Drake wins at undefeated Butler to claim the Pioneer League title in the last game of the season.

Brad

I am not too happy about PSU losing to Iowa But I think Iowa, above all is a very well coached team. 
 
I am very happy about PSU rolling over Michigan.  I don't know where that PSU team came from yesterday, but I hope they show up for the Ohio state game.
 
The Mariner and Mosca get a victory!  Let's hope for a ND vs PSU bowl game
 
And a heartbreaker down in Miami.  Let me post a couple of these for Baah Ben
 
 

I think PSU's O-Line has finally got it together. When you see Royster running long distances, you can bank on a PSU win. It opened up the passing game, which was, then, smokingly good.

My alma mater Iowa is ranked #1 by 4 or 5 of the six computer polls used in the BCS, but nobody really thinks the home games against Indiana or Northwestern are going to be anything but ugly, struggling, low-scoring slugfests.

The final play against MSU, zero safeties back in the endzone after the TE goes in motion, easy read on the blitz and an easy completion after fiftyeight and a half minutes of bad execution: