Where do you stand regarding the immigration bill?

I keep hearing pundits say that the senators who voted down the "amnesty is not amnesty" immigration bill are voting against the will of the American public.

Maybe I'm just in an area of the country that thinks differently from the rest of you, but I have not come across ANYONE who is in favor of the guest worker/path to citizenship program which rewards people who have blatantly broken the law.

I consider myself a liberal, but not liberal enough to sanction failure to enforce existing law and then rewarding those who have broken the law.

As Wolf Blitzer has been saying in moderating the presidential candidate debates, "Are you in favor of the immigration bill, Yes or No?"

I am not in favor of the bill. The Kennedy's have been behind it and
Bush is pushing it but I'm against it and so are all my friends and relatives
and we are all from New York. Some are Republicans and some Democrats, but all Americans.
I think the Senators heard a lot of our "no-way" from back home !!!!

Hello All,
No.
But I hope something resembling sanity can be come out of these
discussions. By that, I mean, perhaps we can truly enforce the
laws we currently have, discover the good and bad of the laws
we have, and then have a true exploration of what can be done
to make the problem better. This should be thought out, not
rammed down our throats. This should be debated and many
ideas considered.
Everyone says the current laws aren't working and so something
new must replace them. We have many immigrants, many illegals,
in my area. The laws for the legal immigrants are working.
The laws for illegals are not being enforced.
Do we really want the laws enforced? Could we handle the laws
being enforced?
Perhaps this is an issue facing us that we need to handle by
taking baby-steps.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I agree with Fieldthistle.
Step 1. Close the border
Step 2. Fine employers using illegal labor.
Step 3. Reevaluate the situation.

Hello All,
I believe I'm typing this, but Poverty Pete's
first 3 steps make sense to me. A good thing.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

As we travel we found that most everyplace we've visited has a large labor pool that wants to come to America. I find it maddening that they are denied because of our immigration laws while 12,000,000 illegals chose to skirt those same laws and reside here. At my job there is a new class of worker that didn't exist years ago, that is an interpreter. I guess my hackles are raised when I see money being spent for that and bi-lingual signage. Unless Serbo-Croatian and every other different language out there had instructions printed in their language, I find it annoying to see only signs in Spanish. Has anyone read what's transpired in Maywood California? I first saw it in this weeks George Will Newsweek column and I had to Google it as it read like a bad urban myth. It may be just a small percentage of illegals but my wife is convinced that most illegals want to bring Mexico here instead of wanting to become a melting pot American citizen. I think she's wrong but after reading about Maywood I'm thinking I might be the one that's wrong. My best and oldest friend is half Mexican with a mother born in Mexico and if you want to anger him, suggest you're in favor of amnesty. His mom came here legally and he thinks all other immigrants should too.

One thing to think about. Who is footing the bill for the illegals?

Examples:

Medical care?
Taxes?
Disability (SSA)?
Schools?
Housing?
Crime?
ET. AL... ??

quote:

Originally posted by Poverty Pete

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I agree with Fieldthistle.
Step 1. Close the border
Step 2. Fine employers using illegal labor.
Step 3. Reevaluate the situation.

Exactly. Except only close the border to incoming. Once the law is enforced against employers and landlords the border stampede would be caused by illegals returning home. No deportation would be needed if the labor market is dried up.

THEN address the "guest worker" program and make sure that incoming are willing to come into the melting pot the old fashioned way--learn English and prove that they will at least pay their own way instead of destroying our assistance programs and the fabric of our society.

This is a very important subject too bad it is not on the home page. It is drawing a lot of attention throughout the country and unfortunately the food industry is one of the biggest offenders. From the field workers to the dishwashers the business is full of undocumented aliens.

I was at a wedding reception recently which suddenly became a scene from Law and Order !!! Two guys in whites came running through the hall heading for the outside. Behind them were 4 cops running just as fast. My brother who is a cop asked what the problem was---the kitchen was full of guys who didn't belong here and who were working for cash.

Years ago a college professor told me that once we print one sign in Spanish we will open the door for
our demise. 40 odd years later I'll bet he is spinning in his grave.

If you agree and want to continue in English hit #2, Habla Espanole hit #1.

quote:

Originally posted by MilwFoodlovers
It may be just a small percentage of illegals but my wife is convinced that most illegals want to bring Mexico here instead of wanting to become a melting pot American citizen. I think she's wrong but after reading about Maywood I'm thinking I might be the one that's wrong.

1. It's not a small percentage.
2. Your wife is correct.
3. Yes, you're the one who is wrong .

Take it from someone at the front lines. That would be me, by the way. I see way too many Mexican flags and atzlan signs/stickers.

quote:

Originally posted by Adjudicator

One thing to think about. Who is footing the bill for the illegals?

Examples:

Medical care?
Taxes?
Disability (SSA)?
Schools?
Housing?
Crime?
ET. AL... ??

WE ARE! By that I mean all wage-earning, tax-paying citizens.

quote:

Originally posted by Oneiron339
WE ARE! By that I mean all wage-earning, tax-paying citizens.

You are right that "we" are paying, but "we" are also causing the problem. Who are we paying to do our construction jobs, cut our lawns, etc.? Do you ask if people providing various services employ only legal workers? Would you be willing to pay more to insure that all the workers are legal? I am sure many would, but many would not, and many don't care. Where I live the comments on this topic are almost universally against the presence of illegal immigrants, yet I can drive around and see many workers whose salaries are being paid by the same people making those complaints. "We" can't have it both ways.

My concerns about immigration (legal/illegal) are more based on overpopulation issues. I believe just about all issues regarding the deterioration of our social fabric can have their origins traced to overpopulation. Higher taxes (greater dependency class: children + retirees) crumbling infrastructure (interstate highways in disrepair, leading to higher taxes), water shortages, traffic, fuel costs, increased medical expenses due to rising health insurance costs, etc, are all consequences of our population increasing at an irresponsible level. Neither major political party will address this pertinent issue in upcoming presidential debates, and it is, to me, the 800 pound gorilla in the room that everyone is choosing to ignore. This chart portends a recipe for disaster:

[img] http://www.npg.org/images/usprojgrowth.jpg [/img]

In 1960 the US had 150 million in population. Last year, we topped 300 million. Whenever you hear a politician saying 'growth is inevitable', challenge that person. It has been a generally accepted principle. We have to begin thinking about sustainable communities. The way to achieve this is through addressing our overpopulation problem, arresting it, and reversing it. I am against immigration of any kind: not because I am a xenophobe, racist, etc, but because I strongly believe that this continuing trend will eventually lead to the ruination of our society. I think the motivating factor for politicians is they are afraid of being called names by special interest groups. Well, as a society, I think a common interest is examining the root consequences of what overpopulation does to this country. It's a tough issue, and one that requires real courage to address, because so many think it is their right to have children. Historically, our culture fosters the notion of raising children. You are basically asking our society to reverse that paradigm. However, I think the time has come for us to seriously consider it.

Herndon Va has decided to act on it's own since polititians will not.
They are making English the only accepted language, requiring small
businesses to only hire legals, and instructing police to detain
undocumented aliens.

I wonder what the restaurant owners who read the main section of Roadfood
think about these hiring practices.

Bush keeps pushing his bill, but all we need do is go back to the
laws that were in effect before Bobby Kennedy and LBJ decided they
needed more votes and less conscience.

Here's how unenforceable the immigration laws are in this country.

An illegal immigrant in Milwaukee, WI, assumed the identity of a deceased relative. He then went on to become a City of Milwaukee police officer. Another of his relatives a LEGAL immigrant is on the same police force and said nothing.

He is now under arrest. Awaiting trial. Some members of the police force are complaining that the union did not back up the officer. Other members of the community are playing the family unification card because his parents and siblings are here legally.

There's going to be a lot of problems with this due to identity theft. Too many places require you Social Security Number when they don't legally need it. That makes your SSN that much more available for theft. Many of the illegal immigrants do work and do pay taxes, just under someone else's SSN.

Cleaning up this mess is going to take a very long time.

As an immigrant who went through proper channels, I agree with the previous posts. Fix the problem at the borders. Fix the problem with those already here. Revamp the immigration system to work.

quote:

Originally posted by tamandmik

My concerns about immigration (legal/illegal) are more based on overpopulation issues.

I don't dispute anything that you wrote, but I can't help but think that we are a nation of immigrants. Yes it can be argued that prior immigrants were different, but I recall stories my Italian grandparents told me that sound awfully familiar to those I hear directed at the latest round of immigrants. My grandparents spoke of being branded as inferior, dirty, greasy, violent, stupid, and were criticized for speaking Italian at home and in their communities. The concerns you voice are real, but something bothers me about the concept of closing the door after I got in.

We have a similar issue where I live regarding preservation of open spaces. I appreciate the goal of saving what little open land we have, but these crusades are usually led by those who live on what once was open land. Something just seems disingenuous about that type of argument.

The fact so many of us enjoy the fruits of the labor provided by recent immigrants illegal and legal, makes the issue even harder for me to decide what is right or wrong.

Really bad legislation! I'm so disappointed with our government and the apparant disconnect between Washington and the average citizen. Does our Congress even have a clue what the taxpayer wants or needs? This legislation is a very poor reflection of a shadow of an answer to that question. Our Illegal Alien residents have broken the law; pure and simple. I as a private citizen have no sympathy for how their offspring , extended families, friends and employers are affected by the swift and sure execution of existing law. These people need to be identified and each case handled individually according to our existing laws and whatever the appropriate action called for by that law needs to be enforced. It is an expensive proposition and I think to pay for it that the retirement salaries of every Congressman, Representative, President, Vice President, Federal Judge, and member of ICE and Immigration needs to be suspended until the whole mess is unraveled and these criminals have had their day in court and the books are brought back in balance. Build the fence. Suspend all financial help to Illegals regardless of ethnicity and enforce the law. Might not be a bad idea to start new legislation to levy healthy fines on employers, and possibly even strip our citizens of their own citizenship when they aide in the immigration and secretion of illegals.

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Bad



I don't dispute anything that you wrote, but I can't help but think that we are a nation of immigrants. Yes it can be argued that prior immigrants were different, but I recall stories my Italian grandparents told me that sound awfully familiar to those I hear directed at the latest round of immigrants.

Controlled immigration of those days vs the throw open the borders uncontrolled immigration of today.

Which do you prefer?

This subject is personal for me. I have a home 40 miles from the border in the Santa Cruz Valley south of Tucson which is a prime route for crossing. We have illegals coming to our doors seeking water, occasionally stealing from our garages and hiding in our hedges. We also have gun battles between coyotes and drug smugglers in the nearby desert and high-speed chases by the border patrol on I-19 through town.

We also have lots and lots of workers of Mexican heritage whom I have come to respect. I don't honestly know who is legal and who is illegal. I do know that the guy who does tile work for me (and has been doing it in my community for many years) is a nice person and extremely hard working--but still I pay him in cash "just in case".

The present bill is so complicated I can't honestly say I understand it. For that reason, I'm against it.

What I support are two things now: (1) Build a double fence on the border through or near all populated areas (on either side) and a vehicle barrier elsewhere with electronic surveillance; (2) crack down hard on American businesses who employ illegals but first create a secure national identification system they can use to verify social security information and the legality of the status of a worker without a valid social security number instantly.

I wish we could build a solid fence all along the border, but we shouldn't. There are native Americans (the Tohono O'Odham) and lots of wildlife living in some of the remote areas who have crossed the border for millenia. Jaguars (know in Mexico as "El Tigre"), for example, have recently started coming back north after having been nearly wiped out on our side of the border--they are beautiful animals. It would be both unfair to the Indians and ecologically damaging to the environment to prevent these movements with a fence in the unpopulated (by other than the Indians) desert.

I would not legalize anybody for 4 or 5 years. I think if they can't get work, a lot of the 12 million illegals will go home on their own. Then we can take another look at the situation. Long term, I don't want a large number of people living here illegaly (because that causes crime and distorts our economy, lowering wages and increasing welfare costs) and I don't think we can deport them so we may have to legalize them, but not until we've tried to induce them to leave.

IF we can truly get control of the border, THEN I would support allowing in large numbers of LEGAL immigrants. I think immigration is good for the country as long as the people who come are people we have chosen to allow in.

It always comes back down to money. I have worked for too many employers that prized cheap wages above eduation, training, and work performance. Customers lost through inept or downright lousy service meant nothing if they had to pay labor more than Federal minimum wage. Remeber Costco recently firing trained, educated employees to replace them with outsourced and/or untrained cheaper labor? As long as "doing the right thing" is redefined as "doing what generates the most profit" our country will continue to go to hell!

quote:

Originally posted by enginecapt
Controlled immigration of those days vs the throw open the borders uncontrolled immigration of today.

Which do you prefer?

When I wrote the words you quoted I was responding more to a comment that seemed to say immigration as a whole is an idea whose time has passed. I firmly believe "illegal" is the key word in such discussions, and our laws need to be enforced.

That said, I am wondering what would happen if we could magically make all those here illegally vanish. While most think that is what they want, I am not sure they would be happy with the consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by lunasatic

It always comes back down to money. I have worked for too many employers that prized cheap wages above eduation, training, and work performance. Customers lost through inept or downright lousy service meant nothing if they had to pay labor more than Federal minimum wage. Remeber Costco recently firing trained, educated employees to replace them with outsourced and/or untrained cheaper labor? As long as "doing the right thing" is redefined as "doing what generates the most profit" our country will continue to go to hell!

Was it Costco or Circuit City that did that? Or both?

I understand what you say, but it isn't as simple as laying the blame at the foot of businesses. If you plan a home renovation and get two bids, do you ask whether the higher priced guy is priced that way because he hires only legal workers and pays them appropriate wages and gives them benefits? If you do, you are the exception rather than the rule. Consumers are also guilty of following the rule of the dollar. I understand it is out of necessity at times, but we can't blame others for things we do ourselves.

That was Circut City! Please edit the post to reflect that.
Costco has a great employment record to date, and they are very proud of it. Chow Jim

quote:

Originally posted by BT

I would not legalize anybody for 4 or 5 years.

Not sure how that helps. You can buy a valid SSN for $100. So unless you can identify those who are here illegally and enforce the employment laws this just isn't going to take away their livelyhood.

You yourself pay the tile guy under the table in cash. Until that stops we're stuck with a black market labor force.

Everyone talks about businesses hiring illegals for the cheaper labor, but the fact is (outside of the day labor and transient labor pool), the government has tied my hands when it comes to identifying the illegals. As a businessman, I am forced to secure documentation regarding one's legality to work here - ever since 1986, as a matter of fact, however, if I don't accept a document that "appears" to be legitimate, I could get a discrimination lawsuit - from the same government which demands I certify the document's legality.

Another thing I have observed during the past 10-15 years is that I have had VERY, VERY few "Americans" come into my factories to even apply for manual labor positions - even though we paid above average wages for the area. It just seems like the American manual labor wasn't there -and therefore, the Mexicans discovered that and came to fill the gaps. When you live in a tin shack in Mexico without utilities, can't find any employment over 50 cents an hour, and can come here without impunity to live in a trailer with several like individuals and get running water and utilities and make $10.00 an hour - you think you've died and gone to heaven.

My concern with the illegal situation is that criminals are not being handled by our judicial system; they are not being deported for crimes; they don't want to assimilate like in previous generations; they don't pay taxes thereby utilizing social benefits far in excess of their contribution; and, the open borders are becoming terrorist highways.

quote:

Originally posted by pdxyyz

quote:

Originally posted by BT

I would not legalize anybody for 4 or 5 years.

Not sure how that helps. You can buy a valid SSN for $100. So unless you can identify those who are here illegally and enforce the employment laws this just isn't going to take away their livelyhood.

You yourself pay the tile guy under the table in cash. Until that stops we're stuck with a black market labor force.




It's not his responsibility to report the income - it's the contractor doing the work.

unless the person is a known terrorist or other subversive (documented criminal history) they should be allowed in. If they got here illegally, I don't care. Find out who they are, and as long as they are not a terrorist or other subversive, let them stay. This is a country of immigrants. It should remain that way. egardless of how it changes the demographics. As citizens, they'll actually pay taxes.

It doesn't matter how you get here, as long as you register with the US Gov't, you should not be sent back due to how you got here. You shoould be sent back if you are a threat to our country.
Whether they want to bring Mexican culture here or not is not the point. There were Little Italies, Chinatowns, and other cultural neighborhoods that took several decades to assimilate.

Keep out the terorists, and keep out the crminals. Otherwise, if someone wants to live here, work here and pay taxes, let them in. Green Cards and such should only be for those who wish to keep their citizenship in a foreign country but still want to work, go to school, etc here in the US. If anyone wants to be a US citizen and that person is a law abiding person, they should be allowed. Otherwise, let's give Lady Liberty back to France.
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free; send these, the homeless tempest-tossed, to me; I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I guess Scorereader and I will stand alone. Open the borders w/ the exceptions to criminals and terrorists. Much easier to stop them w/ open borders than the absurd proposed bill. Two years in, one year out, two years in, one year out...how many millions to enforce this concept?

The real solution is to somehow make Mexico a place where people will want to stay instead of risking their live to cross a desert to wash dishes at Denny's...sometimes at wages. IMHO, we are missing the point. We shouldn't complain about Mexican workers but worry why 1)they can't earn a descent living in their oun country and 2) why we make it so easy for Americans to turn down difficult jobs (welfare, food stamps, etc). We need a basic living wage for workers, we don't have it.

The head of Google made seventy one million last year and I hate to think what the head of Goodman Sacks made. This unequal distribution of compensation is totally an American thing. Heads of European companies may make a few million but not hundreds. Private companies over there are a different thing altogether...just the same as here...my company...my profits...my money.

quote:

Originally posted by V960

The real solution is to somehow make Mexico a place where people will want to stay

that is very true. Mexico has a large enough economy to support itself without such a high rate of unemployment and poverty if it was run properly. Especially with NAFTA. The problem is its government, which continues to be corrupt from bottom up. Until that is solved, there will be no helping the jobless and poor in Mexico.

One problem with opening up our borders to law-abiding Mexicans is the potential damage it would create in our relationship with the Mexican government, who would undoubtly see any "free pass" to Mexicans as a slap in the face.

But, personally, I'm hardly empathetic to the feelings of the Mexican government. I just wanted to point out the potential downside to giving free citizenship to law-abiding Mexicans.

So, in that regard, it's a delicate subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Tony Bad

quote:

Originally posted by Oneiron339
WE ARE! By that I mean all wage-earning, tax-paying citizens.

You are right that "we" are paying, but "we" are also causing the problem. Who are we paying to do our construction jobs, cut our lawns, etc.? Do you ask if people providing various services employ only legal workers? Would you be willing to pay more to insure that all the workers are legal? I am sure many would, but many would not, and many don't care. Where I live the comments on this topic are almost universally against the presence of illegal immigrants, yet I can drive around and see many workers whose salaries are being paid by the same people making those complaints. "We" can't have it both ways.

Tony--I was thinking the exact same thing that you stated. There are so many employers who are looking to cut costs by paying the lowest possible wage that they are creating an environment that is ideal for both those who are willing to work for below-average wages and the consumer who is looking for the lowest possible cost.

The lawn care/landscaping industry, the construction field and also factory assembly lines are now staffed largely by immigrants (legal or illegal) in many parts of the country. If those people were not part of the labor force, I wonder how many American consumers would be happy about the substantially higher costs of the products of those industries. Or, in a similar vein, I wonder how many business owners would be happy to make a substantially lower profit if their wage costs were greatly increased.

In other words, as that great philosopher of yesteryear, Pogo the Possum, used to say, "We have met the enemy and he is us". Are you willing to pay higher costs for virtually everything that results from unskilled labor in the US? If the answer is yes, then you can support immigration restrictions with a clear conscience. If not, then perhaps you should examine the situation more thoroughly.

Another thing to consider is that, while we are indeed a nation of immigrants, how many of us can be sure that our ancestors entered this country in a legal fashion? Unless someone can document that his forebears entered this country legally, it is a bit presumptuous to castigate those who may have entered illegally in recent years. And, after all, how many of us really know whether our ancestors entered this country in a legal fashion?

The so-called "controlled immigration" of the past absolutely did not exist prior to the use of Ellis Island as an immigration point. When my ancestors entered the US (many years prior to Ellis Island--somewhere around 1860) there were essentially no controls on immigration. Whoever managed to get on a ship overseas was allowed to disembark in the US unimpeded by health checks or serious document verifications.

For all I know, my ancestors may not even have obeyed the truly minimal legalities that existed at that point. My great-grandfather entered this country by himself, at the age of 16, without the ability to speak English. While I would like to think that he entered legally, I strongly suspect that either he was illegal or he exemplified the uncontrolled immigration that existed up until the era of Ellis Island.

And, V960 and Scorereader, you do not stand alone. I am completely in tune with what both of you stated. I really think that far too many people are having "knee jerk" reactions to this issue without really analyzing the traditions of this country, the history of immigration in this country, and the economic realities that would hit their wallets if they get what they think they want.

Keep out the terrorists, the criminals, and those who are diseased. With these exceptions, those who are willing to work should be allowed to become a part of the immigrant mosaic that has always made up our great nation.