Wiring concession trailer for generator

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jrice70
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2008/12/03 03:15:40 (permalink)

Wiring concession trailer for generator

I have a trailer that I converted to a concession trailer. It already had a 100 amp breaker with all the inside wiring and a 50 amp shore line feeding the main breaker. Currently I have a 6.5 kw generator permanently mounted on the trailer and hardwired to an outlet on the trailer that I plug the existing 50 amp shoreline into.

With all of the equipment installed my total electrical needs are now 125 amps. I have a 17.5 kw portable generator that I can use. On this generator I have a 50 amp and three 30 amp outlets. I will need to use all of my outlets on the generator to feed the trailer to get the amps that I need. The trailer will either be hooked to the generator or to utilities but NEVER both at the same time. The 30 amp and 50 amp extension cords will be the only way to supply power to the trailer.

I am going to put in a 200 amp box. In order to get all the available power from my generator I would need 4 main breakers. I have been told about back feeding the box from the generator with 4 separate 50 and 30 amp breakers and wiring those breakers to plug-ins on the trailer. Is this the best way to get the generator power into the trailer? Is this the standard way to get power into a main box from 4 separate sources?

Thanks for all you help.
#1

20 Replies Related Threads

    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 05:54:42 (permalink)
    I could go on to specifics, but my best recommendation with any electrical work is to contact a licensed commercial electrician. You can explain what you are doing. They may say they have handled a trailer, but specific commercial electricians so emergency generators. It is your best bet to find one of these electricians in your area and have him either do the work, help him do the work, or check everything that you have done. One mistake can burn down your trailer, electrocute you and your customers, destroy every bit of your electrical equipment along with your generators and put you in court with a heck of a law suit. Get help from your city services for code and make sure everything is upto spec and always go past it. As an engineer I have always designed from 30 to 50 percent over the requirement depending on the situation. It will cost you a bit more, but will always pay back in safety, expansion and sales. Keep it safe, to code and make sure your work or the contractors work is clean, enclosed, exacting work. No hanging wires, rigged work, or under gague wiring. RJF
    #2
    Dr of BBQ
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 08:37:58 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by jrice70

    I have a trailer that I converted to a concession trailer. With all of the equipment installed my total electrical needs are now 125 amps.

    I am going to put in a 200 amp box.

    Is this the best way to get the generator power into the trailer? Is this the standard way to get power into a main box from 4 separate sources?


    I have never been to an event site that offered 200 amp service. In fact at events that I have worked and have a city electrical crew on hand (6-8 guys) that are highly trained and install hook ups for buildings and homes daily would be more than a little upset at one vendor wanting a two hundred amp service. What kind of plug are you going to use for your shoreline????? To my knowledge they don't make a 200 amp plug unless it's 3 phase, and if you use the 3 pin system (100 amps) they run about $400.00 each. If that's correct I'd think you would have to direct wire at any event you visited.

    I think (IMHO) your going overboard on your electrical requirements.
    What does your equipment list look like? I could be dead wrong on this and Pork Chop would be a much better judge on event electrical availability.

    As to how you wire your generator into the system, just go to any, concession trailer builder,or service center for motor homes. They run on generators and or local hookups. They should be more than able to give you some help/directions/sugestions.As I understand it motor home generator systems have a pre-built wiring harness that goes from the generator to the shore line hook up main box. But you'll need a main breaker box for the generator side and one for the shoreline side with a switch in between the two. With some generator packages you can order a wiring harness. During storms I have back fed some circuits in my house but it's not the best way to go as far as electrical safety is concerned.

    Good Luck and welcome to the forum
    Jack








    #3
    porkchopexpress
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 09:24:45 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dr of BBQ

    Originally posted by jrice70

    I have a trailer that I converted to a concession trailer. With all of the equipment installed my total electrical needs are now 125 amps.

    I am going to put in a 200 amp box.

    Is this the best way to get the generator power into the trailer? Is this the standard way to get power into a main box from 4 separate sources?



    What in the world are you using in your trailer that requires that much electrical needs. Unless your going to have a state fair route you'll never get city power at the local fairs and festivals. Most of the time 4 or 5 vendors are sharing a 200 amp box. Some events don't allow generators either.
    #4
    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 16:51:48 (permalink)
    I would never contradict Docs years of experience though I don't know what you are using in your trailer. I would warn that the electric use in motor homes and commercial cooking equipment can have a large difference in wiring gauge and breaker specs. A motor home builder may take it for the money, but may not realize the difference between a camper trailer and commercial cooking trailer. Once a low gauge wire is hidden behind the wall your set up for a fire. Again I'm going back to my original suggestion that you make sure you have licensed and bonded people that are qualified to do the work. With the amps your working with and combining it to a generator, your messing with quite a few electrical problems that I would even attempt to answer on the internet and I'm have been electrical engineer. RJF
    #5
    Dr of BBQ
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 20:48:11 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by RichardFriese
    I would never contradict Docs years of experience though I don't know what you are using in your trailer. I would warn that the electric use in motor homes and commercial cooking equipment can have a large difference in wiring gauge and breaker specs. A motor home builder may take it for the money, but may not realize the difference between a camper trailer and commercial cooking trailer. Your messing with quite a few electrical problems that I would even attempt to answer on the internet and I'm have been electrical engineer. RJF


    Richard it wouldn't bother me in any way shape or form if you chose to contradict anything I wrote here, that's what the forum is all about.

    I never mentioned anything about wiring going to outlets, using commercial, or residential equipment. The original post said he had already wired the interior of the trailer.I merely pointed out that there are wiring harnesses that are available to connect generators to main boxes. Motor homes using a 7K Onan generator aren't any different than a concession trailer, between the generator and the main breaker box,the size of the wire would or should be the same size. What ever the max the generator puts out would affect the wire size, right? And I don't know how you moved the discussion to campers? LMAO,

    One other thing that I touched on and PC said it straight out there is no way anyone needs 200 amps to run a concession trailer. And he was also correct in saying that many events will not allow generators, of any size.

    I also understand with your background that you be big in the fire/safety thing but I doubt you'll find very many reports of concession trailers burning, they're all inspected to death by every one that works for the city, county, and state.
    Jack
    #6
    jrice70
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 20:48:31 (permalink)
    If I could go to a concession trailer builder or even an RV shop then I would have already. Unfortunately I am in a very rural area and we don’t have any RV, trailer builders and definitely no concession trailer builders around us.

    I am going to use an electrician to do all the work, but I want to ensure that he will be installing STANDARD practices for a CONCESSION TRAILER should I ever decide to sell it in the future. My only questions are

    1. Is it standard practice to put 4 outlets (1-50 and 3-30 amps) on the outside of the trailer in order to get the full use of the 17.5 kw generator?

    2. Should we go with a 4 main breaker panel with each main going to a generator plug in on the trailer, or should we just back feed 30 and 50 amp breakers in the panel to the trailer’s generator plug ins?

    As I already stated I will NEVER run the generator and utilities together. I have to be self supporting because all the events that I go to only have utilities for 20 amp. I will always have to run the 17.5 kw generator for all my electricity at my events. At my home I will; not be using the generator but I will be hooked up to utilities by plugging my 50 amp shoreline into my 50 amp plug on my workshop and will only be using the refrigeration and battery charger. My refrigeration needs are under 50 amps and I can run the refrigerators and freezers to get them cold before loading them with the food before an event. My 6.5 kw generator is permanently mounted and hardwired so if I need to use electricity for the refrigeration while traveling or should have the misfortune of a break down then it is right there to keep everything at proper temperatures. I also have a 6000/8000 inverter that runs off 4 batteries for the refrigeration but you can never be too careful with the refrigeration needs.

    My trailer is 32 feet long with the following equipment
    Cash Register 0.5 amps
    Mixer 6 amps
    Exhaust Fans 7 amps
    Warming Lamp 8 amps
    Microwave 9 amps
    Refrigerator 9 amps
    Hot Dog roller 14 amps
    Inside Lights 2 amps
    2 Coffee Pots 18 amps
    Outside Lights 2 amps
    Warming shelf 10 amps
    Upright Freezer 5 amps
    Refrigerated/heated prep table 19.5 amps
    Battery charger/ chest freezer 10 amps
    4 Fryers with filtration system 13 amps and LP
    6 burner stove with oven on LP
    3 foot griddle on LP
    2 rooftop RV A/C's

    The events that we go to are band competitions, our local high school football games, parades, festivals, horse shows, and local fundraisers for various organizations. Currently we do breakfast, lunch and dinner out of the trailer when we have all day events since we are the only food vendor at the events we go to.

    Can someone answer what the concession trailer electrical standards are to be run off of a generator with multiple outputs to get the full use of the generator?

    Thanks.
    #7
    konnie
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/03 22:22:42 (permalink)
    I think you would have to run several inside 40 amp breaker boxes with seperate outside connections but the others are correct, let an electrican do it. If they are licensed and can do a house they can do a trailer.

    I don't know where you will find an event with that kind of power. We have never done a show that had more than a single 50 amp circuit and with most we were lucky to get 2 seperate 20 amp circuits. Good luck on running generators, we have yet to find a show that will allow them because of the noise. IMHO you need to work on cuting your electrical needs inside. Surely everything you listed isn't necessary. With all that equip inside you must have a 40' trailer, what do you pull it with, a semi? Good luck.

    Mike S.
    #8
    BQ Matt
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/04 05:16:47 (permalink)
    I'm no expert, but I'm looking at your list and have a couple of questions.

    1. Mixer, would you be running a mixer at the same time as all of that other equipment?

    2. Are your fryers themselves LP? What uses the 14 amps?

    Sorry, no real ideas here, just questions.
    #9
    UncleVic
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/04 06:51:17 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by BQ Matt

    I'm no expert, but I'm looking at your list and have a couple of questions.

    1. Mixer, would you be running a mixer at the same time as all of that other equipment?

    2. Are your fryers themselves LP? What uses the 14 amps?

    Sorry, no real ideas here, just questions.

    No doubt. Partial list is run part time.. Think he went for max usage vs. real time on these estimates.
    #10
    BigRedLunchbox
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/04 13:01:01 (permalink)
    My trailer has 2-7.5kw genrac guardian generators and the builder came up with a rather simple solution, they simply wired a plug for the for each shoreline to plug in to from each generator. One generator runs the fridges, freezer, 1 a/c and plugs. The other runs my water heater, 2nd a/c and the instant burger machine with plenty of amps left over.
    #11
    JacksSnacks
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/04 17:14:48 (permalink)
    Sounds like you have an awsome rig. Most commercial kitchens dont run what you have! It sounds like you need 3 small panels for each of the feeds from your generator 3 X 120v 30A and 1 220v 50A. Then you need a couple of 3 phase starter relays to bridge all of the feeds for when you are hooked on regular electricity. JacksSnacks
    #12
    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/05 19:25:59 (permalink)
    Hi folks, been laid up for a few days. Jack I mentioned the camping trailers when you mentioned going to a service center for motor homes. I added up the load and didn't double check my figures. If its correct your pulling 143 amps which is 17,160 watts and that's if you don't decide to swap to a different model of something else that pulls a different load. That day you figure it won't hurt to put in the cotton candy machine or an extra warmer for the coffee may very well fry the trailer. In terms of wiring its like Christmas coming up. People wire Xmas trees and outdoor lighting and put on the neat icicles on to the gutter. Now if the extension cords are too small they heat up, the covering melts and bang, a fire. Or some one has only one outlet and decides to put every single Xmas light on one plug with 20 plug adapters, there goes the breaker or fuse in the basement or the socket fries to a nice black. Electricians are licensed and "Engineers" cause the obvious isn't always obvious. Are all the plugs worked out too handle what he is plugging in and each device is demanding so much amps or watts. If the wires put in and the breaker can't handle it he isn't going to be doing much business.

    Now, the deal with generators is making sure that they don't feed electricity to the shore power. Bad things happen. Most people want to have the option to run the generator or shore power everything. That means at some point everything is coming together and the generator power and shore power are going to meet with out special devices to prevent it. One option is to run an entire system with wiring and connection that is separate from the shore power, then move every single plug to the other system. Wiring has a resistance and for every foot it drops the voltage. The size of the wiring inside that is put in must be able to handle this persons amperage demand. Smaller gauge wiring will take a smaller load and be less expensive than the larger gauge wiring that will take a larger load for more feet. I see peoples response so far is gezz that's a massive rig. My thought is; When this rig was built was it designed to handle what this person wants out of it? Every Xmas peoples houses burn down cause they disregard the warnings and figure the extension cords and 30,000 lights will be ok. Now we move on to having people run commercial operations that involve fairs which a good amount of people, electricity, LP, fryers. The bad wiring will be the starting fire, then the oil in the fryers, then the LP? Commercial wiring has completely different codes compared to residential and the reason is public safety. From what this fella has this isn't a hotdog stand and a 2000 watt generator for some lights. We have had a post about cooking in a tent and this is a mix, that can have hazardous results. A shoreline, Generator, cooking, heat, LP and a lot of voltage and amperage. One design mistake can end up with someone being electrocuted from the generator pushing electricity into the shoreline. The trailer electrifying and killing the person in it and the people touching it, or a fire that ignites the LP tanks. Before I ended up in a wheel chair, I've been around industry and the Navy. I've known many people that were very experienced with electricity push the safety once too often, lose respect for it and end up dead. Many posts in the past have also written about commercial kitchens and how expensive they get with rated hoods, fire systems, inspections. This fella has a mobile kitchen that is no less than a commercial kitchen and he is throwing in a generator. Some of history's worst disasters have been from trying to cheap out. Even though the statement has been made that he will never run the generator and shore power together its critical to design in a safety to prevent human error. Just once being too tired, or curious hands, or a misunderstanding with someone your working with and that never turns into a problem. Yep, I've gone on, and although I don't actively work as an engineer, my life was dedicated to designing good reliable safe equipment that is checked over and over to prevent operator error and maintain public saftey. So in ending this commentary, please, create your trailer to high standards, with the best licensed people. Keep your self safe and those you serve safe. By the way with those fryers, you have a rated fire saftey system or a rated fire extinguisher that's up to code right? May you have a safe, profitable and enjoyable business. RJF
    #13
    JacksSnacks
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/05 20:41:05 (permalink)
    Well, I hate to say it but you're being way too hard on J.Rice. Here he is with a simple question and he is being hammered hard. Instead of offering constructive advice you assume he is trying to burn his stand, the public and whoever down. All he needs is a little help and all I see is people off the list knocking him down. It is obvious he understands current draw as he lists all his equipment needs. As an industrial electrical technician for the last 27 years I know of people who are "qualified" and still dont have a clue . So I say give him a chance and explain clearly with drawings . JacksSnacks
    #14
    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/05 21:28:50 (permalink)
    Jack, Maybe I'm coming off hard, though the trailer has some unusual electrical requirements and he is asking a question that can not be handled on the internet. I realize you maybe trying to help, but the state licensing and legal aspects would restrict any of us from giving advise. I believe you can understand as a industrial electrical technician if a company wanted you to diagnosis a piece of equipment over the internet and they didn't know electronics, or electrical systems. Are you really going to put your neck on the line for the guy doing the work on the other end? What may come off as a simple question and answered as a state of fact can put this person in legal trouble. This person is going to operate a commercial kitchen that is a trailer. States, counties and cities each vary in their inspections and restrictions. I'll agree with you that there are people that don't know what they are doing, though sadly they exist in all professions. That is one aspect of doing business is finding out a persons qualifications and getting recommendations that a person or company is reputable and can do reliable work. I looked at his load requirement and question of getting power. I don't expect this person to know electrical requirements and have constantly recommended that they get a professional to look at their trailer and go over the wiring and breaker box. Many post on this board have been about small stands with a few trailers that have been manufactured. Even manufactered trailers are going to have a electrical load limit.

    This trailer is going to be used for cooking so the reality that it has a very real threat of a fire hazard. Commercial kitchens have very real code restrictions on building structure, electrical work, and fire safety systems. A trailer of this size with the electric loads that they are using crosses the line of a "simple hot dog stand" and has every real problem as a concrete commercial kitchen. People on this board can relate experiences and give advise on sources and products, but when it comes down to the inspections and hands on with this trailer, it begs a professional hands on. RJF
    #15
    Dr of BBQ
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/06 00:06:56 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by RichardFriese
    Jack, he is asking a question that can not be handled on the internet. I realize you maybe trying to help, but the state licensing and legal aspects would restrict any of us from giving advise. I believe you can understand as a industrial electrical technician if a company wanted you to diagnosis a piece of equipment over the internet and they didn't know electronics, or electrical systems. Are you really going to put your neck on the line for the guy doing the work on the other end? RJF


    That's just Bull **** Richard.
    #16
    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/06 15:43:36 (permalink)
    Doc. as you put in one of your post this board is all about a discussion of differences. I will stand by what I have written. This fella is hauling a commercial kitchen with the equivalent amperage of an entire house in a 32 foot trailer. Now anyone tell this fella, what is the proper gauge wiring should be running through the trailer? How many branch circuits are required? How many breaker boxes are needed and which equipment needs a dedicated braker box? Since most shore power will not power all of the equipment; how will the circuits be setup to operate off of shore power? More then likely, he is not going to get 4 separate lines rated at 50 amps to power everything. How is the generator going to be hooked up to power what he needs, yet transfer to shore power and back to generator when needed? Is everything going to be powered by the generator when he can't get shore power? If so, how is the circuits going to be setup to handle separation of 50 amp boxes, yet switch to a generator? Is it properly grounded to specs? Is the present wiring even in the proper range for the equipment? What is the breaker rating for a frig? It has a amp rating, but when a compressor starts up it has a higher surge amperage. This fella is in TN, what are the electrical codes for TN?

    Doc, You barbecue, I designed, diagnosed and built, electronics, for industry, military and residential. Every project was completely different the the last. In many posts I've donated solutions that were appropriate. Ideas can be kicked around here all day and its going to come down to someone going hands on with this trailer and hopefully the inspector looking at it, knows his stuff. Go to the library and grab the electrical codes manual, then again tell a past professional engineer, (which takes years of college study in physics, thermodynamics, math, electronics plus professional lic and testing), its bull****. I've had my say. Either its done right, or rigged up. Not everything can be a garage project. RJF
    #17
    JacksSnacks
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/06 19:51:29 (permalink)
    Doc !! You gave me the best laugh.

    The trailer is just that, a trailer. As far as JRice is concerned he's trying to figure the best way to configure the feeds from his generator.
    He appearently needs advice on hooking up his 3 x 120v and 1 x 220v outputs on his generator , then being able to quickly reconfigure to plug into available regular power (land power).

    I know that most state fairs offer 200A feeds and if you look you'll see that the Louisiana State Fair offers 3 phase up to 800A. Big fairs offer big power- some carny rides are 1/2 megawatt or better.
    I have a tiny trailer and it seems every festival, flea market, fair and event I am reconfiguring my panel and main connection plug. There are some many configurations of nema plug its not even funny.
    JacksSnacks - for everyfair another nema plug.
    #18
    Dr of BBQ
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/06 20:15:16 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by JacksSnacks
    Doc !! You gave me the best laugh.The trailer is just that, a trailer. As far as JRice is concerned he's trying to figure the best way to configure the feeds from his generator.
    He appearently needs advice on hooking up his 3 x 120v and 1 x 220v outputs on his generator , then being able to quickly reconfigure to plug into available regular power (land power).

    I know that most state fairs offer 200A feeds and if you look you'll see that the Louisiana State Fair offers 3 phase up to 800A. Big fairs offer big power- some carny rides are 1/2 megawatt or better.
    I have a tiny trailer and it seems every festival, flea market, fair and event I am reconfiguring my panel and main connection plug. There are some many configurations of nema plug its not even funny.
    JacksSnacks - for everyfair another nema plug.



    Every festival, flea market, fair and event, I have attended so far has been an easy hook up but that said every electrician I have ever met thinks their favorite plug is the answer. So I carry some pig tales with me in order to make it easier to hook up or get hooked up. On my step van I'm running to separate boxes one for the drivers side and one for the passengers side. My thought is 50 amp hook ups are much easier to find than 100 amp services. Hell I run a ton of electrical equipment right now on 30 amp service. And on occasion I'll trip a breaker but rarely. I just don't think it takes the Hover Damn to run a concession trailer. Chances are everything won't be on or at worst pulling max at the same time. Of course I don't have a degree in physics, thermodynamics, math, or electronics and the only professional licenses I have are high explosives, low explosives,and driving.
    Jack
    #19
    RichardFriese
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2008/12/07 13:34:32 (permalink)
    I guess training in high explosives, and garage mechanics rules over professional training and experience, C'est la vie. Thought I would give everyone serious thought from a former professional. I've donated many times and spent time researching when people hit a snag and have donated many solutions. Just cause it works doesn't mean your not setting yourself up for a unfortunate death. Instead I'm the brunt of the joke. I standby my assessment and recommendations. I'll move on, later days folks. RJF
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    aiyana
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    RE: Wiring concession trailer for generator 2010/04/19 03:57:24 (permalink)
    Hi all,
    and Concession Stands from Custom Concessions. Call 800-910-8533 for a quote. Nationwide warranty repair service and support with every trailer.
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