anyone else seen Michael Moore's movie?

quote:

If people were forced to become consumers and take care of themselves, perhaps the situation would be different, although I'm inclined to think otherwise, because most folks (over 50%) only want government to step in and provide those things.

I agree. But if I may just sit and think aloud for a moment, why if this is the case do we throw around words like "parasite" and "living off the system" and that sort of thing? I would bet that the people who are opting out of the system are some of the same folks who throw those kinds of words around. Your average poor person would gladly take another (third?) job to have some form of decent health insurance. It's just not available to them.

Here's another riddle, Batman. We have low-paid workers in this country, a fair number of whom are recent immigrants, whether legal or not. We've always had low-paid workers in this country, but before these folks, they were primarily black, or women, or children, or to reach really far back, the Irish. When a society evolves for the better, those kinds of people aren't as largely available to be the underclass anymore, but those businesses still need low-paid workers to survive. Lou Dobbs and his crowd are being dishonest. Many of those businesses on the NYSE got where they are today and stay there because of the labor of low-cost workers. The only thing that has changed is their faces and their accents. And we're all benefiting from their availability and their contributions to our economy. So when we sit back and complain about how "they don't belong here anyway" we should go home and kiss our stock portfolios goodbye. Because we're part of the problem.

Oneiron339:
"Like it or not - it's the welfare mentality - I'll buy what I WANT, and I'll have the government provide what I NEED."

I Couldn't Agree MORE! You hit the nail right on the head...I often wonder about the people that are living in poverty but driving around in BMW's and Mercedes'...I am a working part of society, I pay my bills and know what I can and can't afford...and I don't expect the government to provide for me for the things I NEED...these people need a reality check.

MilwFoodlovers: "ER's by law cannot turn people away, so for those w/o insurance it is the only place where some of them can get health care. It's wrong but I understand both sides. I am firmly in favor of a national or socialized health plan. The system just doesn't work unless you are very wealthy or very healthy and your health can disappear in a blink of the eye. "

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. As far as the ER being the only place certain people can go for healthcare..there are MANY free health clinics around that can give people without insurance sufficient care...but its those people's responsibility to seek them out...that's what being an adult is all about. In addition, I don't agree with the idea that you think that unless you are very wealthy or very healthy, the system doesn't work. One member of my family is not "very wealthy" OR very healthy and this person has gotten extremely good care throughout their life....why? because this person worked hard, saved money and had a good insurance plan with their job. They never expected the government to just take care of them. We planned for the future, saved money and knew that if anything were to happen...we were prepared. I can only imagine how it would have been if America had had a universal health care system back then...LONG lines/waits, LARGE tax increases and lower quality of care. While Universal Health Care could potentially help alot of people, it also has an almost certain potential of punishing the people who have already be responsible.

Nancypalooza: While I tend to agree with you on many points you have made, I do want to say one thing about your last post:

I know where you are coming from, but I would say that the (large) difference between comparing the "low paid workers" back then (when it was mainly the Irish immigrants) and now (ALOT of illegals), is that back then, people had a sense of responsibility and they were willing to do those jobs with pride. They knew that coming to America meant new opportunities for them to work and perhaps advance. The problem now, is that many immigrants that come here illegally want to work, but don't want to take responsiblity of following the law. There have been way too many "accidents or unfortunate events" involving illegals (for example, 2 teenage girls in VA beach were killed by an illegal drunk driver that had had at least 2 prior arrests before that...he shouldn't have even been here!). There are too many of them crying that they have "rights". Guess what, if you are here illegally...that means you have no "rights." Too many people are confusing rights with privileges. I say, You want rights...pay taxes, pay for your kid's education, become legal, follow the law...then you'll be granted your "rights." Just because you live in America doesn't make you an American.

One other issue that really sickens me: The illegals that come over to this country, have their children and then claim that because the kids were born here, they are citizens and that the parents must stay with the child. While I know that the law says that if you are born here, you are a citizen...BUT my opinion is that if the family cannot be bothered to become legal...BOTH Mother AND child are DEPORTED! That would certainly solve alot of questions about whether or not to separate a family.

One question to everyone:
Is anyone outraged that they are certain laws in place regarding illegal immigration that many law enforcement officials/members of legislature brand, "not enforcable"? This is how I look at it, the law is made...ENFORCE IT! If someone is arrested, pulled over, etc..all these law enforcement officials have to do is...here it comes...ASK about someone's legal status. We could save a whole lot of headaches and heartaches if people just did their jobs.

P.S. Props to the people that ARE doing their jobs.

All I'm saying is, read some Howard Zinn, and follow the money. If half of us with Irish heritage had been counting on our drunken forefathers to not have gotten their measly, flea-infested butts kicked out of the country--if cheap airfares had existed then--for misbehavior, we would be sitting in the green motherland today. Count on it.

Speaking of immigration...

quote:

A prominent American once said, about immigrants, "Few of their children in the country learn English ... The signs in our streets have inscriptions in both languages ... Unless the stream of their importation could be turned they will soon so outnumber us that all the advantages we have will not be able to preserve our language, and even our government will become precarious."

Benjamin Franklin

Read the rest of it here...A Melting Pot With a Tight Lid by Kenneth C Davis...

http://www.startribune.com/562/story/1311009.html

And try this article on for size, it's John Stossel interviewing Fatso Moore about his "documentary."
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=michael_and_me&ns=JohnStossel&dt=07/18/2007&page=2