That Danish Cartoon

Post
roossy90
Sirloin
2006/02/09 14:53:41
Ok, I just googled looking for the offensive cartoon that was pubished in the Danish paper, and found it.
Are muslims that uptight? And I sure dont mean anything offensive by using the word uptight.
Or, am I just jaded? With everything under the sun on the internet as far as "cartoons" and photo's go?
I tried to put it in context, and imagine it with "our American" God instead, but then I think, well, this is the land of the First Amendment, and just shrugged it off.
If this is too volatile a subject, I wont be offended if the moderators remove it.
Maybe I need a lesson in world religion.
I am just curious if anyone else thinks there is a lot of brouhaha over nothing that is offensive, at least in MY eyes.
No, I am not a heathen either.
tmiles
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 15:15:19
I have wondered the same thing. I am hurt and insulted when I see an American flag sewed on some jerks butt, and I dislike it when I see "art" that pokes fun at a star or a cross, but I don't even think of hurting anybody over it. I have not seen the pictures, and don't care to, but I wish they had not been published.
6star
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 15:35:24
It is my understanding that many Muslims are as deeply into their religion (or maybe even more so) as the most serious or radical of the American Fundamentalist Christians are into theirs. Therefore, these Muslims cannot tolerate even one iota of humor in connection with anything religious, while most Americans tolerate and even enjoy the occasional joke in reference to religion, like this one from JumboJoke.com:

Jesus saw a crowd chasing down a woman to stone her and approached them. "What's going on here, anyway?" He asked.
"This woman was found committing adultery and the law says we should stone her!" one of the crowd responded.
"Wait," yelled Jesus, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Suddenly, a stone was thrown from out of the sky, and knocked the woman on the side of her head.
"Aw, c'mon, Dad!" Jesus cried, "I'm trying to make a point here!"
Scorereader
Sirloin
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 16:31:35
Actually, what kills me about this is that the drawings were published in September...5 months ago. And the riots are just happening now?

The Muslim world knew about the drawings then. They didn't just find out. Where were all the protests back in September?

This has nothing to do with Muslim fundamentalism, and everything to do with propaganda and inciting a mob for a political agenda led by terrorists.

Case in point, the drawings were published in a Danish newspaper. Yet, a US Base was targeted because in the words of a protester the United States "is the leader of Europe."

If this is true, I wish someone would tell that to France.
NebGuy
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 16:41:17
Amen Scorereader (no pun intended)
Tedbear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 18:16:30
All of the points that were made so far have been valid, but they have not taken into account the underlying basis for the offense that Muslims have taken over these cartoons. It is not just the fact that the cartoons satirized Mohammed (or was it Allah??). Strict interpretations of Islam include a prohibition on images of people, and this is the excuse that is the basis for the protests.

Of course, it is obvious that the masses in Islamic countries are being manipulated for political purposes, and these people are being played like a violin by the manipulators. And, then, there are certain realities that are being ignored by those who claim that they are offended. In most newspapers in the Muslim world, political cartoons often depict Christian and Jewish leaders in insulting/mocking ways, utilizing every classic stereotype in the playbook.

And then, there is the obvious fact that images of various Ayatollahs are regularly carried in religious processions. I guess that it depends on who creates the image, as well as how the person is portrayed that forms part of the issue here.

So, the hypocrisy in this situation is quite evident. Unfortunately, one of the ways that the Muslim world's "leaders" have become successful is in their ability to manipulate the people as a direct result of the abysmally poor state of education in those countries. Except for the wealthy, education in most of the Muslim world consists of an exceptionally narrow view of the world that is filtered through the lens of Islamic Fundamentalism. Since the social structure of most of the Muslim world makes it virtually impossible to rise out of poverty, these leaders have a ready force of poor, ignorant people to manipulate to their heart's content. If no other perspectives aside from Islamic Fundamental views are allowed (and they aren't), then you wind up with a rabble that is especially prone to manipulation as a result of their poor education.

And, thus, you wind up with these highly stage-managed protests, as well as the other massive problems in that part of the world. Is there a solution? Theoretically, bringing democracy to those countries is the answer. However, efforts in that direction have proved fruitless so far. Does anyone have any suggestions, other than thermonuclear devices?
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 19:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by tmiles

I have wondered the same thing. I am hurt and insulted when I see an American flag sewed on some jerks butt, and I dislike it when I see "art" that pokes fun at a star or a cross, but I don't even think of hurting anybody over it. I have not seen the pictures, and don't care to, but I wish they had not been published.


Do you understand WHY they were originally published? It seems a Danish author had written a book on Mohammed. So far as I know, it was a respectful book but he wanted it illustrated. He couldn't find anyone to illustrate it--in Denmark where Lutheranism is the state religion and the Danish Queen its titular head--because of the Muslim prohibition on picturing Mohammed and the FEAR on the part of even Christian illustrators about the consequences. The Jyllands-Posten, according to what I've read Denmark's largest paper, decided to commission the cartoons in order to make the point that they were not afraid of radical European Islamists, even though those Islamists have killed a number of people in Europe including Theo Van Gogh (a decendent of the famous Van Gogh) in the Netherlands, set off bombs in London and rioted all over France..

Now we have the pathetic scene of the major American media showing fear that their European counterparts have overcome. Consider this comments: "'I'm not putting lives in danger. We're not getting things blown up,' - David Unger, owner of New York Press, as reported by Harry Siegel, the editor". But some have found their spine including Seattle's alternative Stranger which recently opined:

quote:
what’s happening here is that a gang of bullies—led by a country, Saudi Arabia, where Bibles are forbidden, Christians tortured, Jews routinely labeled “apes and pigs” in the state-controlled media, and apostasy from Islam punished by death—is trying to compel a tiny democracy to live by its own theocratic rules. To succumb to pressure from this gang would simply be to invite further pressure, and lead to further concessions—not just by Denmark but by all of democratic Europe. And when they’ve tamed Europe, they’ll come after America.

After all, the list of Western phenomena that offend the sensibilities of many Muslims is a long one—ranging from religious liberty, sexual equality, and the right of gay people not to have a wall dropped on them, to music, alcohol, dogs, and pork. After a few Danish cartoons, what’s next?

Make no mistake, this is no isolated incident. It’s one step in a long-term effort by extreme Muslim forces to erode Western liberties and turn free, affluent countries into mirror images of their own dysfunctional dictatorships. “Muslims have a dream of living in an Islamic society,” declared a Danish Muslim leader in 2000. “This dream will surely be fulfilled in Denmark…. We will eventually be a majority.” (Or as a T-shirt popular among young Muslims in Stockholm puts it: “2030—then we take over.”) Even after the bombings in Madrid and London and the riots in Paris, many European leaders continue to be in denial about this effort; others, as eager as Neville Chamberlain at Munich to “keep the peace,” seem already to have chosen a policy of gradual surrender, accompanied by flurries of sycophantic praise for Islam and apology for Western liberties.


I'm personally glad someone somewhere is beginning to stand up and defend western values against radical fundamentalist Islam and maybe soon we'll stand up against radical fundamentalist Christianity too. Wouldn't that be wonderful: A country where people truly are free to follow their own consciences and say what they think or even publish it in the paper?
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 19:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by BT


I'm personally glad someone somewhere is beginning to stand up and defend western values against radical fundamentalist Islam and maybe soon we'll stand up against radical fundamentalist Christianity too. Wouldn't that be wonderful: A country where people truly are free to follow their own consciences and say what they think or even publish it in the paper?

So, you're equating the practices of radical Islam to the practices of "radical" Christians?

Ya know, BT, you make me thankful that I take the time to use the G-d given brain that I have. You should try it sometime.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 19:56:15
quote:
Originally posted by Bushie

quote:
Originally posted by BT


I'm personally glad someone somewhere is beginning to stand up and defend western values against radical fundamentalist Islam and maybe soon we'll stand up against radical fundamentalist Christianity too. Wouldn't that be wonderful: A country where people truly are free to follow their own consciences and say what they think or even publish it in the paper?

So, you're equating the practices of radical Islam to the practices of "radical" Christians?

Ya know, BT, you make me thankful that I take the time to use the G-d given brain that I have. You should try it sometime.


Absolutely, I am. The operative term, of course, is RADICAL. You have no reason to take offense unless you consider yourself "radical" (though, of course, personal insults such as your last remark are likely to cause many to wonder). But those who do have murdered physicians working in abortion clinics, they repeatedly attempt to ban books and movies and prevent those with different religious views from reading or seeing them, they attack people they hate (gays and others) in the name of their religion, they try to interfere with intimate family decsions of others such as decisions about when to artifically prolong life and so forth. The primary distinction between this and radical Islamists is that I think the numbers of radical Christians is very small in proportion to the total number of Christians and most (not all) Christian clergy condemn their actions whereas I am not at all certain what proportion of Muslims would fit the term "radical" and lots of Muslim clergy seem to support the radicals.
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 21:33:04
I fail to see the connection with cutting people's throats and protesting abortion. Again, I'm glad that I use my brain.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/09 22:02:38
quote:
Originally posted by Bushie

I fail to see the connection with cutting people's throats and protesting abortion. Again, I'm glad that I use my brain.



You also failed to READ carefully enough. I said physicians and other workers at abortion clinics have been MURDERED by people who claimed their Christian faith justified such actions and the radical Islamists claim their faith justifies their actions. I would also take this opportunity to add that there are radical Jews in the world who claim their faith also justifies killing and mayhem. My point is not to criticize any religion but to criticize murder and threats of murder and also censorhsip and the abridgment of the freedoms of non-adherents to religion in the name of religion which is what some radical elements have done in the name of most major religions and I think those who support freedom should oppose it no matter what religion it claims to be based on.

Also, I fail to see the relevence of your repeated claims to be using your brain. If that's the case, it will be apparent in what you say.
Jimeats
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 06:15:15
quote:
Originally posted by 6star

It is my understanding that many Muslims are as deeply into their religion (or maybe even more so) as the most serious or radical of the American Fundamentalist Christians are into theirs. Therefore, these Muslims cannot tolerate even one iota of humor in connection with anything religious, while most Americans tolerate and even enjoy the occasional joke in reference to religion, like this one from JumboJoke.com:

Jesus saw a crowd chasing down a woman to stone her and approached them. "What's going on here, anyway?" He asked.
"This woman was found committing adultery and the law says we should stone her!" one of the crowd responded.
"Wait," yelled Jesus, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Suddenly, a stone was thrown from out of the sky, and knocked the woman on the side of her head.
"Aw, c'mon, Dad!" Jesus cried, "I'm trying to make a point here!"
Good one 6star with your permission I'm going to use it. Chow Jim
6star
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 11:22:51
quote:
Originally posted by Jimeats

Good one 6star with your permission I'm going to use it. Chow Jim

You are more than welcome to use it with credit to Jumbo Joke. The original page is at http://www.jumbojoke.com/a_lesson_from_jesus_612.html

I keep Jumbo Joke as one of my "Favorites", as they have a wide variety of jokes, and constantly post new ones. The website is a free service of Randy Cassingham, who also produces "This Is True" ( http://www.thisistrue.com/ ) and "True Stella Awards" ( http://www.stellaawards.com/ ), with periodic e-mail newsletters on unusual items in the news (This Is True) and ridiculous lawsuits (True Stella Awards).
Fieldthistle
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 13:43:55
Hello All,
Thanks Roossy90 for the thread, and thanks 6star for the joke.
I am a christian and believe that God is spirit, and isn't as concerned about
alot of the things that we, of the physical sort, are. That is not to say that
God is not concerned with the physical world, but as physicals we have a different
perspective.
Religious arguments, feuds, councils, movements, etc. tell us more about humans than
they do about God. A few years ago an artist did a piece with a figure of the crucified
Christ in urine. It did not upset me, but it upset quite a few people. I looked at it
differently from them, but it did not mean I didn't love Jesus as much as they did.
I have heard it said that in Islam that they don't allow images of people to be portrayed,
at least in a religious context. That is why the early art and architecture of Islam was
void of images of man or aniamal They could be turned into a form of worship. That is one
reason the Taliban justified destroying the Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan. But during the past
century we have seen pictures of their religious leaders and martyrs quite often, and they also do
not forbid videos or TV. These are images just as much as a statue or painting or cartoon.
I do not know if they consider this inconsistent with their tenets or not.
I do know that I am often inconsistent with the tenets of the Christian religion, but am true to
the faith. The longer I know God, I see how little I have understood and realized God, and what a wonderful
opportunity to grow I still have. So far I know God is love, just, patient and persevering, and has a sense
of humour. Yes, there is more that I know of God, but for this moment, let these words suffice.
What I know of humans is usually written in history, pamphlets and books (holy or not), my experiences, etc.,
but like a TV show, it seems too much to be reruns. And as a human, my words lack the clarity of my heart.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 13:54:26
quote:
Originally posted by 6star

quote:
Originally posted by Jimeats

Good one 6star with your permission I'm going to use it. Chow Jim

You are more than welcome to use it with credit to Jumbo Joke. The original page is at http://www.jumbojoke.com/a_lesson_from_jesus_612.html

I keep Jumbo Joke as one of my "Favorites", as they have a wide variety of jokes, and constantly post new ones. The website is a free service of Randy Cassingham, who also produces "This Is True" ( http://www.thisistrue.com/ ) and "True Stella Awards" ( http://www.stellaawards.com/ ), with periodic e-mail newsletters on unusual items in the news (This Is True) and ridiculous lawsuits (True Stella Awards).

Thanks for the links, I subscribed also..
Tara
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 17:39:21
quote:
Originally posted by Fieldthistle

A few years ago an artist did a piece with a figure of the crucified
Christ in urine. It did not upset me, but it upset quite a few people. I looked at it
differently from them, but it did not mean I didn't love Jesus as much as they did.


At the time, it upset ME but the thought never came into my head to kill the guy who did it or to make it somehow illegal for him to do it. I just thought he was a jerk and kept the thought to myself. That, I think, is the Western approach to such matters--and also the way taught by Christ who did, after, all tell us to turn the other cheek--and I think it's well worth defending from the other way, the way where people do immediately think to kill the person who offended them.
Jimeats
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 17:42:09
Thanks Gstar just what I needed more time in front of this screen. Good sites I enjoyed them. Chow Jim
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 18:06:14
Oh, why can't I ever just stay out of these discussions?

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/tyrrell021006.php3
Extreme Glow
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 18:12:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bushie

I fail to see the connection with cutting people's throats and protesting abortion. Again, I'm glad that I use my brain.



I don't think you are using your brain as much as you think you are:

In St. Louis, we had so-called Christians bombing doctor's office over abortion. In several instances around this country, we've had so-called Christians murdering doctors over abortion. I think that's a little more than "protesting".

Christians are capable of atrocities as well as anyone else... anyone remember the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Klan, or Westboro Baptist Church? All were performed in the name of God and Jesus. It's my belief that neither God nor Jesus approved.
Sundancer7
Fire Safety Admin
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 18:19:59
quote:
Originally posted by Fieldthistle

Hello All,
Thanks Roossy90 for the thread, and thanks 6star for the joke.
I am a christian and believe that God is spirit, and isn't as concerned about
alot of the things that we, of the physical sort, are. That is not to say that
God is not concerned with the physical world, but as physicals we have a different
perspective.
Religious arguments, feuds, councils, movements, etc. tell us more about humans than
they do about God. A few years ago an artist did a piece with a figure of the crucified
Christ in urine. It did not upset me, but it upset quite a few people. I looked at it
differently from them, but it did not mean I didn't love Jesus as much as they did.
I have heard it said that in Islam that they don't allow images of people to be portrayed,
at least in a religious context. That is why the early art and architecture of Islam was
void of images of man or aniamal They could be turned into a form of worship. That is one
reason the Taliban justified destroying the Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan. But during the past
century we have seen pictures of their religious leaders and martyrs quite often, and they also do
not forbid videos or TV. These are images just as much as a statue or painting or cartoon.
I do not know if they consider this inconsistent with their tenets or not.
I do know that I am often inconsistent with the tenets of the Christian religion, but am true to
the faith. The longer I know God, I see how little I have understood and realized God, and what a wonderful
opportunity to grow I still have. So far I know God is love, just, patient and persevering, and has a sense
of humour. Yes, there is more that I know of God, but for this moment, let these words suffice.
What I know of humans is usually written in history, pamphlets and books (holy or not), my experiences, etc.,
but like a TV show, it seems too much to be reruns. And as a human, my words lack the clarity of my heart.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle



Amen

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 18:59:03
More information now on what the fanatical hordes really want:
quote:
no compromise before Denmark apologizes and the European Parliament and individual assemblies in Europe pass laws that prohibit insulting the Prophet.


In other words, legal censorship of the western press on the basis of the Muslim religion. And they are getting close to getting what they want:

quote:
The European Union, meanwhile, sought to calm tension, calling for a voluntary media code of conduct to avoid inflaming religious sensibilities.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan scolded the media on Thursday for continuing to publish the controversial cartoons and defended an attempt by Islamic nations to have a new U.N. human-rights council address religious defamation.
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 22:23:48
quote:
Originally posted by Extreme Glow

quote:
Originally posted by Bushie

I fail to see the connection with cutting people's throats and protesting abortion. Again, I'm glad that I use my brain.



I don't think you are using your brain as much as you think you are:

In St. Louis, we had so-called Christians bombing doctor's office over abortion. In several instances around this country, we've had so-called Christians murdering doctors over abortion. I think that's a little more than "protesting".

Christians are capable of atrocities as well as anyone else... anyone remember the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Klan, or Westboro Baptist Church? All were performed in the name of God and Jesus. It's my belief that neither God nor Jesus approved.

Well, actually, I think I am using my brain.

I believe that your realization that they are "so-called" Christians says it all. Any real Christian would not kill in the name of Jesus.

The Inquisition was a Catholic thing, and I'll refrain from offering my thoughts about that.

I COMPLETELY agree with your statement that, "It's my belief that neither God nor Jesus approved."

My whole reason for responding to BT in the first place was that I believe from the bottom of my heart that it's preposterous to equate the practices of adherents to modern-day Islam to Christianity.

I understand why he thinks the way he does, but he's wrong.

(Edited to show everyone that I actually know how to spell "Catholic". )
plb
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/10 23:39:50
[quote
Christians are capable of atrocities as well as anyone else... anyone remember the Crusades,


I've always wondered, why are the Crusades, where the Christians tried to take the holy lands back from the Muslims considered a hate crime or an atrocity, but no one says that about the Muslims taking the over the holy lands in the first place?
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 00:41:16
quote:
Originally posted by plb

quote:

Christians are capable of atrocities as well as anyone else... anyone remember the Crusades,


I've always wondered, why are the Crusades, where the Christians tried to take the holy lands back from the Muslims considered a hate crime or an atrocity, but no one says that about the Muslims taking the over the holy lands in the first place?


Or about the Muslim attempts to conquer Europe in the middle ages, which were ultimately stopped only after they conquered most of modern Spain on one end of Europe and the Balkans at the other (which is why many Bosnians are Mislim to this day). Don't forget that this mosque had been a church for many centuries before it became a mosque:

Photo removed to restore page width, not for editorial purpose! AB
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 00:52:10
quote:
Originally posted by Bushie


My whole reason for responding to BT in the first place was that I believe from the bottom of my heart that it's preposterous to equate the practices of adherents to modern-day Islam to Christianity.

I understand why he thinks the way he does, but he's wrong.


I would be wrong if I were arguing that all or even most Christians behaved like the radical few. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that fanticism is something to be avoided in all religions. I tend to believe as I think you do that fanaticism is now and probably always has been a more common phenomenon in the Muslim religion which was out converting adherents of other faiths at the tip of a sword within 100 years of its birth. But Christians have behaved fanatically at many times in history from the cruscades and the Inquisition to modern times when a few of them do murder and other crimes in the name of their religious beliefs (in utter controvention to what Christ taught). So fanticism from whatever source needs to be fought and I personally applaud the journalists in Europe who, unlike their cowardly American brethren, are willing to call a fanatic a fanatic and fight against fanaticism.
tmiles
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 10:34:52
I'm glad that roosy started this. It has been interesting, and has caused me to change my mind (or at least think about it). Maybe it was a good idea to publish the cartoons.
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 12:02:20
Glad to play devils advocate!
The thought's of why all the rioting just tugged at my brain after I saw the cartoon.
If anyone wants to see, All I did was google "danish cartoon" and click "google images" and it wasn't hard to pick it out. All I heard/knew about it was the description they gave on the news.
But this has been an interesting thread so far, and I am enjoying all the responses, with learning a few things in the process.
mr chips
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 13:26:13
This particuliar issue has caused me to think a bit more about cultural differences. A couple Muslim papers tried to come up with a cartoon that would be equally offensive to western sensiblities to demonstrate the feeling the cartoon caused. What they came up with was an image of Adolf Hitler exiting a bed with Anne Frank, saying"Put that in your diary."
I admit the image is offensive but I would never dream of killing the cartoonist or burning the embassy of the country where he is from. I've always figured offensive stuff will be revealed for its true worth(and I confess a sneaking admiration for South Park).
tmiles
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 13:43:34
Is it just my computer, or is the above post from mr chips about 2 screens wide?
BuddyRoadhouse
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 14:08:00
It's not mr chips' post, but BT's photo that expanded everything. Moderators, is there a way to control this sort of thing? I've seen it happen in quite a few other threads. Very annoying.

Buddy
NebGuy
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 15:04:23
quote:
Originally posted by BuddyRoadhouse

It's not mr chips' post, but BT's photo that expanded everything. Moderators, is there a way to control this sort of thing? I've seen it happen in quite a few other threads. Very annoying.

Buddy


From my old computer programming days I will tell you yes they can disable the horizontal scroll bars. The only problem when doing web programming is obviously not everyone has the same size monitor. They would just need to decide where to draw the line so to speak.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 15:08:10
If it bothers you, I'll take out the photo. When I selected it, it was much smaller--didn't realized it would expand so much.
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 17:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by BT

I would be wrong if I were arguing that all or even most Christians behaved like the radical few. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that fanticism is something to be avoided in all religions. I tend to believe as I think you do that fanaticism is now and probably always has been a more common phenomenon in the Muslim religion which was out converting adherents of other faiths at the tip of a sword within 100 years of its birth. But Christians have behaved fanatically at many times in history from the cruscades and the Inquisition to modern times when a few of them do murder and other crimes in the name of their religious beliefs (in utter controvention to what Christ taught). So fanticism from whatever source needs to be fought and I personally applaud the journalists in Europe who, unlike their cowardly American brethren, are willing to call a fanatic a fanatic and fight against fanaticism.

Wow. We agree!!!

It's a miracle.
mayor al
Fire Safety Admin
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 17:56:37
BT, Since you mentioned it, I removed the photo to restore the page size. AL
berndog
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 19:12:13
What I see in this entire mess is how quickly certain groups follow their so called leaders to riot and cause violence in the name of religion. We can say those leaders are terrorists, but I don't understand why the people don't have enough sense themselves to realize that their actions are completely out of proportion to the insult they are protesting against.

I can't remember how many times I have seen extremely bigoted and nasty cartoons published which defamed a religious, cultural, or political group. My response was to think poorly of the cartoonist, and the publication. Even if I was a member of the group being defamed, I would not think about taking to the streets to protest, throw rocks, and try to burn buildings.

If Muslims in certain middle east countries want to be accepted by the rest of the world, they should stop acting like fanatics. I can't believe Mohammed (or Jesus) would approve of what is being done in their names by their religious followers.
Catracks
Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 21:40:35
I think the cartoons are spot on. They just don't get the irony when they say kill everyone who makes fun of Islam.

What to see something totally irreverant and food related? Google: "breakfast of Blasphemy."

Heck, some freak got mad when he thought Burger King's stylized ice cream logo spelled out Mohammed.

Just like many riots, it's less about principle and mostly all about riot. Rioting and violence is a passtime and a way of life.
Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/11 22:01:42
quote:
Originally posted by berndog

I can't believe Mohammed (or Jesus) would approve of what is being done in their names by their religious followers.

Gosh, I hate to stir the pot again, but I believe that Mohammed WOULD approve. He wrote about dealing with infidels, and that's why the adherents do what they do.

Yeshua had a totally different message.
plb
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 00:24:17
quote:
Originally posted by berndog



If Muslims in certain middle east countries want to be accepted by the rest of the world, they should stop acting like fanatics. I can't believe Mohammed (or Jesus) would approve of what is being done in their names by their religious followers.


I think the issue is that "Muslims in certain middle east countries" do not care at all about being "accepted by the rest of the world." They do not care anymore about what you think than you care about what a cockroach thinks, they are Muslims, and you are not.
Fieldthistle
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 03:08:01
Hello All,
I can't speak for Islam, or for Christianity for that matter, but it could be that many followers are
fearful of outside influences, fear of losing control, fearful that their culture is being hi-jacked
and they are not sure of where it is going. The first reaction is always to be defensive and negative.
That is how we all usually react when what we think is a chaotic force moves into our world.
I do not condone the actions of the "fanatics," but it is a pure human reaction from a people that
have lived in region of the world that the "civilized West" and many of their leaders under the direction
of the "civilized West" have used and abused for so long.
I still recall when I was a child in the 1960's, many people using the phase, "Damn Yankees" and meaning
it, due to the Civil War and Reconstruction. In our nation, we had the KKK and other hate groups rise up.
It has taken us a long time to raise the mask of being acceptable, though many nasty undercurrents still
exist.
So I would suggest we not accept the fanatics reactions to the cartoons, but at the same time we should
take a little time and examine ourselves. We have our own issues to face...how kind are we really to those
of different colour, different sexual orientation, any "other" than "us." Heck, we had to make separate
section for Fast Food here at Roadfood.
Yes, for the most part, we do not result to physical violence. But we are just as violent with our words
and laws. We are all controlled by fear, but how we allow fear to controll us is a matter of our comfort
zones. We can make laws determining how labels must state how much fat or cholesterol is in a product we
buy because we are not a hungry nation,(for the most part, we are not a hungry nation.) It seems we feed
on fear, and our fears are different from other nations.
But maybe I am just wrong. I hope so, because fear is nothing but bad.
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The
one who fears is not made of perfect in love." I John 4: 18
None of us are perfect, but we can seek love which can lead us to something more than we are.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 03:51:29
quote:
Originally posted by Fieldthistle


I can't speak for Islam, or for Christianity for that matter, but it could be that many followers are
fearful of outside influences, fear of losing control, fearful that their culture is being hi-jacked
and they are not sure of where it is going. The first reaction is always to be defensive and negative.



I very much appreciate all of what you had to say, but the part I quoted above is something I've been thinking about. What's been going through my head is the contrast between all this fear and concern among Muslims about their culture being hijacked and the reaction of "Christendom" (i.e European civilization) when it first encountered the Muslims. If you recall, when Mohammed lived and preached his religion, Europe was mired in the Dark Ages and it didn't make a lot of progress in the direction of civilization until the Muslim civilization was well established and the two cultures came into contact. At that point, rather than being overcome with fear, to our everlasting benefit the West adopted many wonderful things--some might say the best things--of the Muslim culture from Arabic numerals to many different spices to algebra to the preserved learning of the Greeks. I certainly wish the modern Muslims would let us return the favor rather than yearning to return to the 8th century.
saps
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 04:02:46
Fieldthistle,

Don't take this post the wrong way. When one reads posts, you kind of "hear" them in a way; they have a personality.

Your "voice" reminds me of the Hal 9000's mellow sing-song voice in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

This is not a bad thing (as long as you don't blow someone out of a hatch or prevent them from re-entering a space vehicle).

You're a good voice of reason on this site.

John

V960
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 08:59:55
Originally posted by Fieldthistle
[I still recall when I was a child in the 1960's, many people using the phase, "Damn Yankees" and meaning
it, due to the Civil War and Reconstruction.
First of all it was the war of northern aggression and I was not aware that one could say yankee w/o the modification of damn. And yes, we still mean it altough we are now winning the economic part of that war.

"Forget Hell", just joking folks...maybe?
lunasatic
Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 10:27:06
I saw a wonderful cartoon by Singe Wilkinson in the Washington Post a few days ago. Had Buddah, Krishna, Jesus, Mohammed, & God sitting in a semi-circle sharing a laugh at a book entitled "Totally Offensive Religious Cartoons for Dummies" (or some such). Maybe we could take a lesson?

On the strictly religious isssue, I'm firmly with Thomas Jefferson and Harlan Ellison (paraphrase): "People pretty much get the government (and gods) they deserve". Puts it in a rather scary perspective that, as a (supposedly) sentient race, we do this to ourselves. (And keep doing it throughout the ages - will we ever learn?)
lunasatic
Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 10:29:35
quote:
Originally posted by berndog

What I see in this entire mess is how quickly certain groups follow their so called leaders to riot and cause violence in the name of religion. We can say those leaders are terrorists, but I don't understand why the people don't have enough sense themselves to realize that their actions are completely out of proportion to the insult they are protesting against.

I can't remember how many times I have seen extremely bigoted and nasty cartoons published which defamed a religious, cultural, or political group. My response was to think poorly of the cartoonist, and the publication. Even if I was a member of the group being defamed, I would not think about taking to the streets to protest, throw rocks, and try to burn buildings.

If Muslims in certain middle east countries want to be accepted by the rest of the world, they should stop acting like fanatics. I can't believe Mohammed (or Jesus) would approve of what is being done in their names by their religious followers.


That's the problem with the human race, though, Berndog. We fear what we are not familiar with, and act on that fear by eradicating what is different from ourselves.
lunasatic
Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 10:36:20
Upon rereading my posts, it could be taken that I'm defending the kneejerk reactionists. Sorry, no, just shaking my head in sorrow as the evidence mounts that the human race has seemingly learned exactly zero about getting along with each other over the last few millenia. We're still a bunch of tribes with sticks, pounding the hell out of each other and ourselves trying to make everybody the same. Sad.
Fieldthistle
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/12 16:23:27
Hello All,
Good Morning, Saps....
hehehe,
Take Care,
Fieldthistle
berndog
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/14 00:42:22
quote:
Originally posted by lunasatic

Upon rereading my posts, it could be taken that I'm defending the kneejerk reactionists. Sorry, no, just shaking my head in sorrow as the evidence mounts that the human race has seemingly learned exactly zero about getting along with each other over the last few millenia. We're still a bunch of tribes with sticks, pounding the hell out of each other and ourselves trying to make everybody the same. Sad.


Thats the real problem. I can accept a bunch of fanatic Muslim arabs running through their own streets and stoning or burning embassy's. But the danger is going way beyond sticks and stones. 911 was bad enough, but when Iran or North Korea (not Muslim, but just as fanatical and dangerous) obtains nukes and missles to deliver them to our shores, we have a major problem.

And Bushie, I understand what you say, but it was my belief that Mohammed believed in peace between nations. I have been told that he didn't originate the idea of killing infidels (meaning anyone who is not a Muslim), but said that the infidels would not go to his heaven.

If peaceful Muslims just hoped to convert me so I would go to their heaven, I could accept that. I don't consider Mormons who come to my door to be terrorists. I cannot accept the more radical and modern Muslim belief that infidels should be killed. I hate to say bomb them before they bomb us, but it could come to having to make that decision someday. I pity our world if it does.
dreamzpainter
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/15 13:26:42
per Jay Leno's monologe...." I walked into a Muslim Bakery and asked for a danish"...
berndog
Double Cheeseburger
RE: That Danish Cartoon 2006/02/15 13:44:27
From CNN yesterday; in Pakistan, American businesses were picketed and stoned, including McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Pizza Hut. As much as we disagree with these demonstrations, those actions must have made a few Roadfooders smile.