Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here)

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trudyn
Cheeseburger
2006/02/13 22:42:12
I knew the Bush administration does not like lawyers but I think the Vice President went a little far.
mr chips
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/13 22:53:52
Did he get his limit?
saps
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/13 23:34:14
Jim and Mr. Chips, people. They'll be here all week. Good night, watch out for the rattlers in the lot, and drive home safely.
berndog
Double Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 00:15:45
Used to be the secret service wouldn't allow anyone else to have guns around Cheney. Now they won't let him have one either.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 03:03:52
quote:
Originally posted by berndog

Used to be the secret service wouldn't allow anyone else to have guns around Cheney. Now they won't let him have one either.


What seems not at all funny to me is that the suggestion has been made that the Secret Service prevented the local sheriff from talking to Cheney about the matter until at least the next morning, too late to ascertain whether, for example, he had been drinking. It has further been suggested that they wouldn't have done that unless ordered to by someone.

Having grown up hunting, I think this was probably a true accident (as Alan Simpson, someone I've always respected, pointed out, the "victim" may have been at fault for not making his location clearer), but I think everything that was done after the fact look like an arrogant bungle, from blocking the sort of local investigation that any of us would have had to go through to the way the incident became public.
Tedbear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 06:42:58
Quote: "I think everything that was done after the fact look like an arrogant bungle, from blocking the sort of local investigation that any of us would have had to go through to the way the incident became public."

BT--I agree with you. However, why should this incident be different from virtually everything that this administration has had its hand in? From budgetary waste/profligate spending, to the Iraq quagmire, to the Katrina disaster, to illegal spying on U.S. citizens, it is difficult to find anything but arrogant bungles on the part of this administration. The 60 Minutes story this past Sunday, on the unaccounted hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars that "disappeared" in Iraq, was just the latest outrage, IMHO. A true conservative administration would be keeping a far steadier hand on the tiller (as well as on the till!), in order that our money not be wasted as it is being currently.

Remember Ted Mack's Amateur Hour? I think that it is back, and that it is currently conducting its auditions in the highest offices of the federal government.
1bbqboy
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 08:50:14
A smart mid-western friend who has a lot of quail-hunting experience writes:
Quail The entire Cheney hunting accident story stinks. The delay in announcing it isCheney_2 suspicious, obviously. I'll bet Cheney had a few beers in him, but I'm not sure that is illegal in Texas (drinking and hunting is illegal in most states, but I couldn't find out if that includes Texas).
But a few other points that may be worth noting:
1. The news reports say the accident happened "around 5:30 pm" on Saturday. In Texas, quail can be hunted until 30 minutes after sunset. Sunset on Saturday, in Corpus Christi, was at 6:18, which means they were legal until 6:48. The "around" is suspicious.
Harry_whittington 2. The news reports say that after Whittington (left) had gotten off his shot and went looking for his bird, Cheney and the other hunter went to another spot where they saw a covey of quail. Texas quail might be different from Iowa quail, but in Iowa when a shotgun goes off, every quail within earshot flutters away. The story doesn't make sense.
3. None of the stories have commented on the fact that they were "road hunting", or hunting from a car. That is just about the lowest kind of low-rent, dishonorable kind of hunting there is (the phrase "road hunting" is often used synonymously with "poaching"). When I was growing up in Iowa, I went pheasant or quail hunting on scores of occasions with my Dad and others. We never would have hunted from a vehicle and it was an insult to even suggest that someone might. It was considered dangerous and declasse, as it was too great an advantage for the hunter to be "fair". It most states, including Texas, it is also illegal: Shotgun

"It is unlawful to hunt from or by means of motor-driven vehicles and land conveyances or aircraft of any kind except paraplegics and single or double amputees of legs may hunt from stationary motor-driven vehicles or land conveyances."
However, Texas exempts private property owners from the prohibition when they are on their own land and Cheney was with the property owner on his ranch. But it is still really tacky.
4. Hunting quail in Texas requires an "Upland game bird stamp", which costs $7. This is a relatively new requirement, but I'll bet Cheney didn't have one.
5. The spin is that Whittington "came up from behind the Vice President", implying that he snuck up on him or was somehow partially responsible because Cheney didn't know he was there. When hunting, it is bad form to walk in front of someone's gun. When given a choice, one would always approach another hunter from behind.
Cheney has gotten negative press in the past for participating in "canned hunts" Cheney_roadkill and a couple of years ago he got really negative press for going on a canned pheasant hunt in Pennsylvania where he got between 70 and 95 birds (depending on which report is to be believed). The typical daily limit in places like Iowa and South Dakota, where we have many more pheasants than Pennsylvania, is 3 or 5 per day and a possession limit of 15 or 20.
To many of our milieu, hunting is hunting is hunting and the distinctions noted above aren't that big of a deal. To hunters, these are important distinctions. Hunting regulations are strictly enforced in most states and every sixpack Joe knows he better abide by them or he'll get in trouble. Most hunters aren't affluent suede vest guys, they are working class guys within a couple of generations of agriculatural roots. The gluttony of shooting 70 pheasant in a day is almost impossible for them to comprehend.
Focusing on the kill rather than the hunt is frowned upon. Killing more than you can eat is frowned upon. Canned hunts and that kind of over-indulgence is for the Rambo hunters, who are not thought highly of by the old-fashioned Izaak Walton league type of guys, like my Dad.
Someone should be asking if Cheney was drinking, if he was properly licensed with his Upland Game Bird Stamp, when (and if) the hunting accident was actually reported to the authorities and if anyone has investigated why the quail in Texas seem to have gone deaf.
Ms. Armstrong claims to have been in the car, but to have witnessed the shooting. If so, that would mean the hunters were fairly close, within eyeshot, which makes it even less likely that Whittington had gotten off a shot at a quail and then there were other quail still waiting around for Cheney to find them. It just does not make sense!
UPDATE AT 1:50 PM: CBS news' White House correspondent reports that Secret Ser ie agents prevented local law enforcement from interviewing Cheney. At White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan's late morning press conference, he said that Cheney had a valid hunting license -- but no one asked whether the Veep had the required Upland Game Bird Stamp. Think Progress has a partial transcript of the McClelln presser here. And my quail-hunting friend updates his comments above with the following:
"I spoke to my younger brother today who did not know anything about the hunting accident. He kind of lives off the grid, doesn't pay attention to news, I'm not sure he has a wallet, checking account or even pays taxes. What he does is hunt and fish. And generally vote Republican I am sorry to report.
I read him the story and when I got to the part about Cheney and the other guy going to flush a second covey of quail, he interrupted me "You NEVER break your hunting party when hunting quail. NEVER NEVER NEVER." He explained that game birds flight patterns vary when they are taking flight or flushed. Quail flush in a starburst or "blizzard pattern" and fly all around, often between the hunters themselves. Pheasant go up in a linear fashion, away from the hunters.
My brother said that it also depended on what kind of quail they were hunting and Blue_quail_1 whether or not they were stocked quail or wild quail. He said if they were "blues" (one of the two main species in Texas) (left), they typically first run on the ground, in a single file, to the nearest cover. It might be a piece of sagebrush, but the entire covey will hover underneath it. Then, when one of them sees better cover and takes off for it, they'll all follow single file.
He thinks it may be possible that some of them were flushed--and Whittington took his shot--and the other birds ran a few yards to better cover, and Cheney and the other hunter followed those birds. At this point he repeated his comment about "never breaking your party when hunting quail". That is, apparently, one of the most common reasons for hunting accidents (that and alcohol).
Bobwhite quail (right) don't run and they'll sit tight until they are flushed. Bobwhite_quail
Whether the initial shot would have caused the other nearby birds to flush or not may depend on whether or not they were stocked birds. He said that wild birds usually would flush upon hearing a shot, but stocked birds may be less likely to and could just sit tight. "They'll watch the hunters and if the hunters don't see them, they'll sit tight until they figure out they've been detected and then they'll flush".
In any case, when I read to him the part about Whittington approaching the Veep from behind, without announcing himself, he said "that's bull****, it is his fault. It is always the shooters' fault". That reminded me of "the pause" which was what our Dad taught us to do right before squeezing the trigger. We were taught to build in a moment, even if a fraction of a second, right before firing the gun to look at precisely what you were shooting at. This was true whether hunting birds or shooting skeet (clay pigeons). You never fired your gun as part of a swinging motion or in excitement; you maintained safety and control by always having that fractional pause.
Cheney_nra He said Cheney is "a weekend warrior who really just wants to do his blasting" and is "more interested in the kill than in the hunt". (Left, Cheney gets gift of gun from NRA Convention.) He called that type of hunter "overzealous and lazy" and said they "don't enjoy the hunt for what it is".
My brother and our Dad have won all sorts of awards for hunting, as have their dogs. They travel all over the continent to shoot various fowl (no mammals), including some of the most respected bird hunts, like the []deleted] and the [deleted] Championship.
I asked him if he could be quoted on the record and he said "you gotta be kidding, these people will track you down". That prompted me to ask him if the election were held today, would he vote for Bush or Kerry and he stunned me by saying he thought he'd go for Kerry now. That was the best news of the day. I then asked Bush or Hillary and he said "I won't for her". I asked Bush or Vilsack and he said, without hesitation, Vilsack."
2nd UPDATE MONDAY MIDNIGHT: My perspicacious friend was right in his speculation above: Smoking Gun now has the local law enforcement report showing that Cheney indeed did NOT have an Upland Game Bird Stamp on his hunting license.

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/02/questions_about.html
Elmer Fudd.
ELMER FUDD
Medium: Theatrical Animation
Released by: Warner Bros.
First Appeared: 1938 (name) or 1940 (everything else)
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Elmer Fudd was not so much created, as assembled from parts. His basic design came from a major revamping of an earlier Warner Bros. character, Egghead, who …

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… appeared in several late 1930s cartoons. His voice — including that unique laugh — was created by voice actor Arthur Q. Bryan (Major Hoople on radio) for Dangerous Dan McFoo (1939), a oneshot cartoon directed by Tex Avery. And his name was written on a vehicle ridden by Egghead in Avery's 1938 cartoon, A Feud There Was, and in 1938-39 promotional material about Egghead.

It all came together in Elmer's Candid Camera (1940), directed by Chuck Jones. The character still had a little evolving to do, but you'd know him anywhere.

It was in that cartoon that Elmer first met the Bunny that was to become Bugs. Appearance-wise, the "Wabbit" was still in his formative stage. But his character was almost fully formed, and Elmer's Candid Camera set the tone for a partnership that was to last decades. To this day, phrases first heard there, such as "Wabbit twacks!" and "Be vewy, vewy quiet! I'm hunting wabbits!" will evoke a smile from cartoon lovers throughout the English-speaking world.

Bugs was not Elmer's only intended prey. He often locked horns with Daffy Duck, starting with Jones's To Duck or Not to Duck (1943). Occasionally, he didn't hunt anybody at all, as when he parodied Leopold Stowkowski's Fantasia role in Corny Concerto (1943), directed by Robert Clampett. But it was Bugs with whom he shared the majority of his cartoon appearances. Elmer's dimwitted wimpiness contrasted beautifully with Bugs's casual confidence in his ability to control any situation.

Elmer's only Oscar nomination was for Avery's A Wild Hare (1940), which introduced the fully-formed Bugs. But perhaps his finest moment occurred in Jones's What's Opera, Doc? (1957), in which he hunted Bugs to the strains of Wagner's Ring Cycle. By that time, audiences were so familiar with the relationship between the two, that it could be parodied and stylized almost to the point of abstraction, and still get tremendous laughs.

It was perhaps because of this familiarity that Elmer was used less often in the 1950s than he had been in the '40s. Or perhaps it was because Bryan died in 1959, and even the amazingly versatile Mel Blanc was unable to replace him satisfactorily. (Hal Smith, the dog on Davey & Goliath, did Elmer in a few cartoons, but very imperfectly.) In any case, Elmer's last cartoon was What's My Lion? (1961), directed by Friz Freleng. After that, it was just TV reruns for him, until 1988, when he made a cameo in Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Two years later, in Tiny Toon Adventures, he became the mentor and favorite teacher of his counterpart there, Elmyra Duff. He was more recently seen, along with the majority of his Looney Tunes cohorts, with Michael Jordan, in Space Jam.

Elmer followed a similar path in comics. Although he headlined about a dozen and a half issues between 1953 and '62, in the vast majority of his comic book appearances, starting with Dell's Looney Tunes & Merrie Melodies Comics #1 (1941), he was basically just a foil for Bugs Bunny.

And so he remains — not truly a star in his own right, perhaps, but one of the best-known second bananas in cartoondom.

— DDM
http://www.toonopedia.com/elmer.htm
NebGuy
Double Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 09:22:47
In hindsight he did look a little big for a quail. I thought the orange vest was just a different type of quail.
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 12:23:44
quote:
Originally posted by BT

quote:
Originally posted by berndog

Used to be the secret service wouldn't allow anyone else to have guns around Cheney. Now they won't let him have one either.


What seems not at all funny to me is that the suggestion has been made that the Secret Service prevented the local sheriff from talking to Cheney about the matter until at least the next morning, too late to ascertain whether, for example, he had been drinking. It has further been suggested that they wouldn't have done that unless ordered to by someone.

Having grown up hunting, I think this was probably a true accident (as Alan Simpson, someone I've always respected, pointed out, the "victim" may have been at fault for not making his location clearer), but I think everything that was done after the fact look like an arrogant bungle, from blocking the sort of local investigation that any of us would have had to go through to the way the incident became public.

According to the Secret Service the county sheriff had made arrangements to send deputies out the following morning to interview the vice president. The idea of the county sheriff being involved is interesting, as a hunting accident is not within his jurisdiction. The matter is handled, by law, by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. That agency determined that it was an accident.
saps
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 12:30:18
No- it's always a conspiracy.

I'm locking my doors and putting on my tinfoil hat.

And you know those white trails in the sky? Chemicals or bacteria, in order to "thin the herd".

Look out, Bush may activate the hurricane machine again.

This thread is probably being watched by the government.

Or, maybe it was just a hunting accident.
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 12:34:07
Bill, on hunting lands such as the 50,000-acre spread where Cheney was hunting, the use of vehicles is standard. It is also the common method of quail hunting on soutehrn plantations, although sometimes the hunters ride in wagons pulled by horses -- sometimes they even ride horseback. It is not road-hunting, as they aren't on roads.

I've never hunted quail in Iowa, but in Ohio, South Carolina, Texas, Georgia and other places where I've been hunting quail for more than 50 years, other coveys do not take off at the report of a shotgun.

I'll just skip now to the upland game stamp required since last September in Texas. According to the office of the vice president, a staffer mailed a check to Texas in the amoount of $140, as requested by the state. The non-resident license cost $125. It seems that Texas added the extra $15 for a waterfowl stamp, which, as it turned out, was not needed because the vice president already had one. Obviously, there was a mixup, as the duck stamp wasn't needed and the uplant stamp costs just $7. According to Texas Parks and Wildlife Department officials, hunters without the new upland stamp are merely being warned this season. Oh, after learning about the need for an upland stamp the vice president sent a check for $7.
Scorereader
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 12:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Tedbear

Quote: "I think everything that was done after the fact look like an arrogant bungle, from blocking the sort of local investigation that any of us would have had to go through to the way the incident became public."

BT--I agree with you. However, why should this incident be different from virtually everything that this administration has had its hand in? From budgetary waste/profligate spending, to the Iraq quagmire, to the Katrina disaster, to illegal spying on U.S. citizens, it is difficult to find anything but arrogant bungles on the part of this administration. The 60 Minutes story this past Sunday, on the unaccounted hundreds of millions of U.S. dollars that "disappeared" in Iraq, was just the latest outrage, IMHO. A true conservative administration would be keeping a far steadier hand on the tiller (as well as on the till!), in order that our money not be wasted as it is being currently.

Remember Ted Mack's Amateur Hour? I think that it is back, and that it is currently conducting its auditions in the highest offices of the federal government.


good lord. I like your food posts, but you're way off base here.
Your comment suggests you only have half the facts.
I had a very long post, but I scrapped it. It's simply not worth it.
1bbqboy
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 13:11:14
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

Bill, on hunting lands such as the 50,000-acre spread where Cheney was hunting, the use of vehicles is standard. It is also the common method of quail hunting on soutehrn plantations, although sometimes the hunters ride in wagons pulled by horses -- sometimes they even ride horseback. It is not road-hunting, as they aren't on roads.

I've never hunted quail in Iowa, but in Ohio, South Carolina, Texas, Georgia and other places where I've been hunting quail for more than 50 years, other coveys do not take off at the report of a shotgun.

I'll just skip now to the upland game stamp required since last September in Texas. According to the office of the vice president, a staffer mailed a check to Texas in the amoount of $140, as requested by the state. The non-resident license cost $125. It seems that Texas added the extra $15 for a waterfowl stamp, which, as it turned out, was not needed because the vice president already had one. Obviously, there was a mixup, as the duck stamp wasn't needed and the uplant stamp costs just $7. According to Texas Parks and Wildlife Department officials, hunters without the new upland stamp are merely being warned this season. Oh, after learning about the need for an upland stamp the vice president sent a check for $7.

I'm just reporting the buzz. Of course, nothing from you about the obvious to all but the CIA "Fudd/Cheney" separated at birth controversy. Bah! Administration apologists!
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 13:15:29
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman


According to the Secret Service the county sheriff had made arrangements to send deputies out the following morning to interview the vice president. The idea of the county sheriff being involved is interesting, as a hunting accident is not within his jurisdiction. The matter is handled, by law, by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. That agency determined that it was an accident.


I am aware of this. On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". When someone is brought into the hospital having been shot, I'm pretty sure whatever law enforcement agency is responsible would want to talk to the admitted perp right away, especially if evidence of a crime might be transitory such as would be the case if drinking while hunting is illegal in Texas. "Hunting accidents," such as if you accidentally shoot a cow, may be handled by Park and Wildlife, but I'm still guessing that when a human gets shot, that's handled by the folks who investigate homicides. But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 13:26:15
quote:
Originally posted by BT

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman


According to the Secret Service the county sheriff had made arrangements to send deputies out the following morning to interview the vice president. The idea of the county sheriff being involved is interesting, as a hunting accident is not within his jurisdiction. The matter is handled, by law, by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. That agency determined that it was an accident.


I am aware of this. On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". When someone is brought into the hospital having been shot, I'm pretty sure whatever law enforcement agency is responsible would want to talk to the admitted perp right away, especially if evidence of a crime might be transitory such as would be the case if drinking while hunting is illegal in Texas. "Hunting accidents," such as if you accidentally shoot a cow, may be handled by Park and Wildlife, but I'm still guessing that when a human gets shot, that's handled by the folks who investigate homicides. But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.

You're guessing wrong. Game protectors, called game wardens some places, are sworn law enforcement officers and handle the investigations and any arrests in connection with all crimes and possible crimes connected with hunting and fishing.
V960
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 14:36:36
Did someone get popped w/ birdshot? 7 1/2 shot is tiny any must take a week to dig it all out.

I think drinking is REQUIRED for hunting in Texas. It's required for just about everything else.
UncleVic
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 15:05:16
Seeing the news today, seems the hunting accident became a little more serious. The lawyer had some birdshot either hit his heart, or flow to his heart casuing a heart attack. I dont know how Texans deal with the law out there, but in Michigan, this would definatly get one locked up.
Sundancer7
Fire Safety Admin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 15:30:01
Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

I am very sorry to hear of his hunting accident with his long time friend. I am sure that this disturbs him deeply. Apparently he has hunted with this friend for years. Accidents do happen. This one was certainly negligence. Regardless, it was an accident.

This is only my opinion.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN
V960
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 16:43:43
Mr. Voss,
You may spin your Democratic garbage if you wish and I shall ignore it. Looked at the Congress lately...the nation doesn't agree w/ you.

Always would have figured Cheney would have been a better shot...dead lawyers, even Republican lawyers, are always a good thing. Sorry Jack, personal thing.
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 17:21:16
quote:
Originally posted by V960

Did someone get popped w/ birdshot? 7 1/2 shot is tiny any must take a week to dig it all out.

I think drinking is REQUIRED for hunting in Texas. It's required for just about everything else.

While I've not hunted in Texas in about three years I have hunted there often and for many years. I've never seen anyone there drinking before or during a hunt.
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 17:24:21
quote:
Originally posted by UncleVic

Seeing the news today, seems the hunting accident became a little more serious. The lawyer had some birdshot either hit his heart, or flow to his heart casuing a heart attack. I dont know how Texans deal with the law out there, but in Michigan, this would definatly get one locked up.


No it wouldn't. It would be handled as a hunting accident, and that's it. Unless a Michigan game protector determined that the shooting was the result of some unlawful action -- and negligence could be construed as unlawful -- there would be no arrest.
Tedbear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 18:01:40
Quote: "good lord. I like your food posts, but you're way off base here.
Your comment suggests you only have half the facts."

Scorereader--I am always interested in learning something new. Please post the other half of the facts.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:02:06
Well, the joke is getting less funny. Do the game folks in Texas investigate negligent homicides, Michael (Hoffman)? Because one of Cheney's birdshot apparently penetrated into the victim's heart and he just had what NBC News is calling a "minor heart attack". Certainly if he dies (he's in his 70's so I wouldn't call any heart attack minor) or suffers lasting damage, those Texas folks who gave Cheney a pass may look more stupid than they already do. What will REALLY be funny is if, since he's a lawyer, he recovers enough to file a lawsuit against Cheney.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:03:22
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman


You're guessing wrong. Game protectors, called game wardens some places, are sworn law enforcement officers and handle the investigations and any arrests in connection with all crimes and possible crimes connected with hunting and fishing.


I'm looking for evidence you've passed the Texas bar. Until then, I consider my guess as good as yours on this matter.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

I am very sorry to hear of his hunting accident with his long time friend. I am sure that this disturbs him deeply. Apparently he has hunted with this friend for years. Accidents do happen. This one was certainly negligence. Regardless, it was an accident.

This is only my opinion.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


Paul:

I've tried hard not to make any judgements about Cheney outside of the hunting incident but since you've broadened the discussion, I'll just say that while I think his motivations have been honorable (I do NOT think he's involved in some sort of oil industry cabal to rape the country), I do think his judgements about everything from who should be VP (when he picked himself rather than somebody who could succeed Bush) to Iraq to deficit spending to whatever have been a disaster for the country. As to the great job he gave up at Haliburton, any objective observer (and I was a Haliburton stockholder while he was CEO) will have trouble not acknowledging that he was mostly a figurehead who was hired for his ability to garner government contracts and schmooze his friends still in government on behalf of the company--in other words, he got the job because he was a powerful politician and his golden parachute was sufficient that he didn't give up much to go back to being one.
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:14:14
So, what if this lawyer dies as a result of this "Minor Heart Attack", (I didnt know any heart attacks were MINOR),??
Is it reckless endagerment, manslaughter,accidental shooting or what?
Sundancer7
Fire Safety Admin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:18:45
quote:
Originally posted by BT

quote:
Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

I am very sorry to hear of his hunting accident with his long time friend. I am sure that this disturbs him deeply. Apparently he has hunted with this friend for years. Accidents do happen. This one was certainly negligence. Regardless, it was an accident.

This is only my opinion.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


Paul:

I've tried hard not to make any judgements about Cheney outside of the hunting incident but since you've broadened the discussion, I'll just say that while I think his motivations have been honorable (I do NOT think he's involved in some sort of oil industry cabal to rape the country), I do think his judgements about everything from who should be VP (when he picked himself rather than somebody who could succeed Bush) to Iraq to deficit spending to whatever have been a disaster for the country. As to the great job he gave up at Haliburton, any objective observer (and I was a Haliburton stockholder while he was CEO) will have trouble not acknowledging that he was mostly a figurehead who was hired for his ability to garner government contracts and schmooze his friends still in government on behalf of the company--in other words, he got the job because he was a powerful politician and his golden parachute was sufficient that he didn't give up much to go back to being one.


I am sorry if my comments offended you but it was truly meant as what I said. What your comments where was true to you. I respect that.

I still stand by my comments.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN
mugirl2003
Junior Burger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 19:49:23
I think Dick is trying to capitalize on his mishap, he's coming out with a new cologne. It's called "Duck".
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 20:04:03
quote:
Originally posted by Sundancer7



I am sorry if my comments offended you but it was truly meant as what I said. What your comments where was true to you. I respect that.

I still stand by my comments.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


They don't offend me. Not even a little bit, and I'd expect you to stand by them since I assume you were sincere. I just disagree--I think people who respect each other can do that without offense.

My concern was just that we seem to be stepping pretty close to the line as to what type of discussion is allowed here and I would only want to step over in your wake (that's a Navy term ) since you are da boss.
1bbqboy
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 20:07:52
quote:
Originally posted by V960

Mr. Voss,
You may spin your Democratic garbage if you wish and I shall ignore it. Looked at the Congress lately...the nation doesn't agree w/ you.

Always would have figured Cheney would have been a better shot...dead lawyers, even Republican lawyers, are always a good thing. Sorry Jack, personal thing.

I suppose this means our hunting trip for Snipe & Grouse is off.
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 22:01:28
I ran across the following. For the oblivious among us, it's fictitious, but funny in its way (well, OK, you may have to be a Democrat to see the sarcastic humor) and this started off as a thread inviting humor, so:
quote:
Tuesday, February 14, 2006
DOJ Memo Defends Cheney Shooting


JB

Frankly, I don't understand all the fuss about Vice President Cheney's shooting of Harry Whittington. This unsigned Department of Justice Memorandum, which was slipped under my door this morning, explains it all:

* * * * *

Under the unitary executive theory of Article II, the President of the United States, as Commander-in-Chief, has inherent authority to shoot anyone he likes, and he may surely delegate that authority to his second in command, the Vice President of the United States. Indeed, to the extent that federal law or state tort law is to the contrary, we must read all such laws in harmony with the inherent powers of the President as head of the unitary executive in order to avoid any potential constitutional conflict. As the President himself noted in his recent signing statement to the McCain Amendment, laws that purport to limit the President's authority to use force in time of war must be construed "in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the president to supervise the unitary executive branch and as commander in chief."

The Executive's ability to identify enemy combatants and apprehend or, if necessary, shoot them on the field of battle is fully recognized under the laws of war. There is no doubt that it is fully within the President's powers under the laws of war to identify enemy combatants and apprehend, or if necessary, shoot them in order to prevent them from returning to the battlefield where they may do harm to the interests of the United States. In this case, it is undisputed that Harry Whittington (if that is his *real* name) was carrying arms in close proximity to the Vice President of the United States, and, moreover, in the very same state as the President's Crawford, Texas, residence.

It was therefore completely within the Vice-President's discretion to determine that the said Whittington was an enemy combatant who posed a threat, whether real, potential, imagined or fictitious, to the national security of the United States. Media accounts do not reveal what Harry Whittington's name was before he changed it; it is entirely possible, however, that his real name is Ari Al-Whittington and that he is an Al Qaeda operative, or is associated with groups who are associated with Al Qaeda, or is associated with groups who are associated with groups who are associated with Al Qaeda. And so on.

The objection that Al-Whittington was found on American soil is completely without merit. We are dealing with questions of war, not the criminal or civil process. What so-called "civil libertarians" still don't understand is that 9-11 changed everything. Thousands of people died in the World Trade Center *on American soil.* Discovering Al Qaeda operatives on American soil, or those that executive suspects, whether reasonably or unreasonably, to be Al Qaeda operatives, does not bestow upon such "persons" the "right" to call upon the criminal justice system, much less the civil tort system. We note, moreover, that the President's constitutional obligation in Article II, section 3, to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed" fully supports these conclusions. If the President is constitutionally authorized to execute "laws," a fortiori he is clearly authorized to execute "persons" by shooting them at his discretion.

Nor is the fact that Al-Whittington is a 78 year old businessman who has made substantial contributions to the Republican Party a reason to doubt the Vice-President's plenary determination that Al-Whittington may have links to Al Qaeda, or links to links to links to Al Qaeda. After all, if Al Qaeda wished to infiltrate the Executive branch it would be entirely logical to plant operatives posing as Republican businessmen who gave money to Republican causes because everyone knows that in this Administration the best way to gain access to Administration officials is to buy your way in. Indeed, precisely because money buys access in this Administration, the more money a businessman gives, the more justified the suspicion that the businessman is in fact in league with Al Qaeda, groups associated with Al Qaeda, groups associated with groups associated with Al Qaeda, and so on. The Vice-President's determination, whether reasonable, unreasonable, or completely under the influence of drugs, is therefore plenary and unreviewable, as is made clear by the text of the Constitution, which fails to say anything to the contrary.

Finally, even if one doubts the inherent authority of the unitary executive to identify and shoot persons like Al-Whittington, the September 18th, 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (hereinafter "AUMF") clearly gives the President authority "to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." This authorization clearly includes persons like Al-Whittington, since the letters in the authorization can be rearranged to spell "Al-Whittington," not to mention "Al-Gore." (But we digress). Such Congressional authorization clearly trumps any federal or state law to the contrary, and all state or federal laws which may be passed in the future. In particular, the AUMF clearly obviates the need for Vice President Cheney to have purchased a hunting license from the State of Texas.

In sum, because of the President's inherent authority to supervise and direct the Unitary Executive Branch as Commander-in-Chief under Article II of the Constitution, Vice President Cheney was clearly authorized to shoot Ari Al-Whittington, enemy of the people, under the laws of war. Any suggestions to the contrary show ignorance of the original understanding of the United States Constitution, serve to give our enemies in the Global War on Terror aid and comfort, and in and of themselves constitute grounds for detention as an enemy combatant. We're serious. Don't f*ck with us.

Department of Justice
John Yoo Building
Washington, D.C.
sizz
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 22:12:49
quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?
Michael Hoffman
Double-chop Porterhouse
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/14 23:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by bill voss

quote:
Originally posted by V960

Mr. Voss,
You may spin your Democratic garbage if you wish and I shall ignore it. Looked at the Congress lately...the nation doesn't agree w/ you.

Always would have figured Cheney would have been a better shot...dead lawyers, even Republican lawyers, are always a good thing. Sorry Jack, personal thing.

I suppose this means our hunting trip for Snipe & Grouse is off.

You can come grouse hunting with me anytime, although you have better grouse hunting in Michigan than we have here in Ohio. As to snipe, it's usually too hot and buggy for me to enjoy snipe hunting these days.
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 00:53:50
OK,
First of all, I applaude Mr. Voss's litenay in his post, but it was very long to read, and I got bored since it was so long, and personally I didnt finish it..
I like to read, but since being on the PC< I have a short attention span for things like this.
NOT to say, that they arent newsworthy, or readable, but it is just too long for a forum like this.
i would rather someone keep it short and sweet, instead of making it like something I have to read for a test later on.



Second of all:
Do any of you like satire out there?
(with a bit of political/comedic insinuations?)

If you do, I hope you caught both episodes of Jon Stewart's, "The Daily Show" regarding this whole "MISHAP" with VP Cheney?...
They have been very enjoyable, and you can catch PART 2 Wednesday night at 8 PM on Comedy central.
First part was great, but that was on repeat tuesday night at 8..


I love humor, and if any kind of celebrity/political satire is mixed with it, I love it even more.
"nuff said.
Tara
Zing
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:10:24
quote:
Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?


OK..
Now you got me involved in this debate..

Is he different from any other citizen of the US when things go wrong?
What happens when this lawyer dies because of what Cheney did?..
The lawyer screwed up and it wasnt Cheney's fault, but we know that is probably a cover up, because we cant trust our own government to tell the truth.

Step 2
Case in point. Why did they wait so long to tell the public.
?
But nevermind that.
(I will just accept that as trying to get the man some first class help)

Someone got shot by accident, (doesnt matter who), someone shot him by accident, (doesnt matter who)--
Man dies!
If it was a "REGULAR CITIZEN" of this lovely run US of A, they would be charged with some type of reckless endangerment/assualt/manslaughter--ETC..

You get the gist of what I am saying.??
So----
If Whittington dies, SHOULD Cheney get special treatment because he shot a man, BY ACCIDENT, (as we have been told)--we dont know-
Well, yeah..Or just be excused?
They charge people with lesser crimes, and then drop them.

Hell, no..
The priviledges of the government do not extend to exempting "HUMAN BEINGS" from the law.
How would you feel if you were in Whittingtons shoe. I dont even know if I am spelling his name right..
Ok.. I got shot, because I screwed up.. but then I died. DAMN-I hate when that happens....

OK.. well , after all, he is the VP.. oh yeah......cant charge him with anything because he is the VP>>/above the law?
UGH......
Hello?
Who is playing GOD here?
That is what I want to know.
And, yeah, Mr Voss, it seems that I am going on too long myself..
But outraged at the people that think any lawmaker/government official is above the law!
Everyone knows..but we close our eyes everytime it seems.

Sheesh.. Only Steven Segall is "ABOVE THE LAW"
(LMAO)
mr chips
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:11:10
quote:
Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?
He shot someone. Nobody deserves a special break on that issue..
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by mr chips

quote:
Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?
He shot someone. Nobody deserves a special break on that issue..

AMEN!
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?


Because under the law--remember the LAW--he IS, Frank. He's apparently being cited for breaking one law in this episode--not having the required upland bird stamp. Ask Aaron Burr, the last Vice President to shoot someone. Sorry, but your Navy time may have convinced you those in power are different from the rest of us, but my experience then and with politicians before and since convinced me they are absolutely no different than the rest--some are downright incompetent and venal. And certainly the law does not give them a pass if they commit a crime. Only Congress can remove the VP from office, but any local DA can charge him with a crime if they have sufficient evidence he has committed one (and OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, as a recent President learned) is a crime as is NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. I'm not saying he committed either of those, but the local authorities have a right and duty to investigate that possibility no matter who he is.

Truth is, this is looking worse and worse for Dick because it's looking more and more like he or his "people" may have been hiding something (aside from the lack of an upland bird stamp which they've now admitted) and intentionally cut a deal with local law enforcement to put off his being interviewed. The most obvious thing they may have been hiding, like I said before, is he had been DRINKING. We've recently discussed that in another context.
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:25:38
quote:
Originally posted by BT

quote:
Originally posted by fpczyz

quote:
BT Posted - 02/14/2006 : 13:15:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the face of it, it reeks of "special treatment". ..........................

................But it really doesn't matter--it appears to me that breaks were given in the Cheney situation that wouldn't have been had a "regular citizen" done the same thing and that bothers me because, more and more, the Bushies seem to consider themselves above the law.


My God Man, he happens to be the Vice President of the United States Of America and I'd hope to hell he'd be given "special treatment"........... and why would you even think he was just a "regular citizen" ..............?


Because under the law--remember the LAW--he IS, Frank. He's apparently being cited for breaking one law in this episode--not having the required upland bird stamp. Ask Aaron Burr, the last Vice President to shoot someone. Sorry, but your Navy time may have convinced you those in power are different from the rest of us, but my experience then and with politicians before and since convinced me they are absolutely no different than the rest--some are downright incompetent and venal. And certainly the law does not give them a pass if they commit a crime. Only Congress can remove the VP from office, but any local DA can charge him with a crime if they have sufficient evidence he has committed one (and OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, as a recent President learned) is a crime as is NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. I'm not saying he committed either of those, but the local authorities have a right and duty to investigate that possibility no matter who he is.

Truth is, this is looking worse and worse for Dick because it's looking more and more like he or his "people" may have been hiding something (aside from the lack of an upland bird stamp which they've now admitted) and intentionally cut a deal with local law enforcement to put off his being interviewed. The most obvious thing they may have been hiding, like I said before, is he had been DRINKING. We've recently discussed that in another context.

Oh, but his office sent the $7.00 check to cover that bird stamp.. whoopie....
after the fact..
LOL
UncleVic
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:32:01
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

quote:
Originally posted by UncleVic

Seeing the news today, seems the hunting accident became a little more serious. The lawyer had some birdshot either hit his heart, or flow to his heart casuing a heart attack. I dont know how Texans deal with the law out there, but in Michigan, this would definatly get one locked up.


No it wouldn't. It would be handled as a hunting accident, and that's it. Unless a Michigan game protector determined that the shooting was the result of some unlawful action -- and negligence could be construed as unlawful -- there would be no arrest.


Well, if the police (or Foresty service) where able to investigate the situation without being turned away, I'd agree with ya... But the 24 hour delay, and lack of due process being deliverd in that time frame makes a tax payer wonder... In my neck of the woods, it's considered negligence until proven innocent.. 99% of the time, anyone involved in something similar whould be hauled in, maybe not handcuffed, but not by their choice either hauled into the pen...

I was involved in an accidental shooting back when I was 17.. Nobody injured, involved a hole in a pickup in the field, and I got stuck doing time.. And if you seen how minor it was, and being in my shoes, after the fines, It would make you wonder why someone famous is able to walk.... Laws are laws.. I respect them, follow them, and feel others should do the same...
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 01:51:12
quote:
Originally posted by UncleVic

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Hoffman

quote:
Originally posted by UncleVic

Seeing the news today, seems the hunting accident became a little more serious. The lawyer had some birdshot either hit his heart, or flow to his heart casuing a heart attack. I dont know how Texans deal with the law out there, but in Michigan, this would definatly get one locked up.


No it wouldn't. It would be handled as a hunting accident, and that's it. Unless a Michigan game protector determined that the shooting was the result of some unlawful action -- and negligence could be construed as unlawful -- there would be no arrest.


Well, if the police (or Foresty service) where able to investigate the situation without being turned away, I'd agree with ya... But the 24 hour delay, and lack of due process being deliverd in that time frame makes a tax payer wonder... In my neck of the woods, it's considered negligence until proven innocent.. 99% of the time, anyone involved in something similar whould be hauled in, maybe not handcuffed, but not by their choice either hauled into the pen...

I was involved in an accidental shooting back when I was 17.. Nobody injured, involved a hole in a pickup in the field, and I got stuck doing time.. And if you seen how minor it was, and being in my shoes, after the fines, It would make you wonder why someone famous is able to walk.... Laws are laws.. I respect them, follow them, and feel others should do the same...


Amen......... Makes me GAG thinking about what the outcome of this will be.
I swear, I will eat my words.
I will print this out and eat it for breakfast, if he is charged with any type of "crime"..

(ever seen me so steamed about anything?)
Jimeats
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 07:08:18
Who hijacked this thread? I think it said insert joke here. And here I was sitting here wating for all the good punch lines. Come on there must be more out there. Vivere,mangarie,bibita e essera allegro. Ciao Jim
Tedbear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 07:49:36
Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

/quote]

Paul--I'm just curious about something here. Does your view of him as "a patriot" include the fact that he received an unusually large number of draft deferments back during the Vietnam Era? (While I hesitate to come up with a specific number, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe that he received draft deferments seven times.)

When questioned years later about his lack of service in the military, his response was, "I had other priorities". I am quite sure that the thousands of guys who perished in the Vietnam War had other priorities too, but they didn't have the connections to be deferred, as he was. Or, perhaps, they were patriots in the true sense.

Speaking from my own experience, as a teacher, I received two deferrments. Then, the deferrments were no longer available, and I was called for my physical exam. If not for high blood pressure, I would have been required to serve, as did my brother and ten of thousands of others. Somehow, this "patriot" managed to finesse the system so that he was never even called for a physical exam. And, years later, he became one of the chief architects (along with Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld who also failed to serve) of our present war.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion in our society, so I respect your opinion. However, I strongly disagree with your characterization of this man as a patriot. Based on his record with the Draft Board, with Halliburton, and now as the V.P., perhaps opportunist might be a better characterization of Mr. Cheney.
Sundancer7
Fire Safety Admin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 08:02:10
quote:
Originally posted by Tedbear

Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

/quote]

You opinion is your opinion and I respect that. Mr. Cheney was making mega bucks with Halliburton. He certainly took a cut in pay when he agreed to take the current job. I sincerely believe he is a patriot not because of his military service but because he was willing to serve in a position of minimum pay, receive constant criticism and still work behind the scenes in what he believe is in the best interest of the USA.

I do understand that many do not have the same feelings. I respect those views. I just merely expressed what I thought.

If I had been him, I would have never taken the job that he currently has. The constant criticism is not worth it. As a matter of fact from my point of view is if I had been George W, I would not have wanted that job either. Neither of them pay enough.

I believe that the current President and his vice has endured more during their tenure than any other leader we have had.

I am glad that I am semi retired.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


Paul--I'm just curious about something here. Does your view of him as "a patriot" include the fact that he received an unusually large number of draft deferments back during the Vietnam Era? (While I hesitate to come up with a specific number, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe that he received draft deferments seven times.)

When questioned years later about his lack of service in the military, his response was, "I had other priorities". I am quite sure that the thousands of guys who perished in the Vietnam War had other priorities too, but they didn't have the connections to be deferred, as he was. Or, perhaps, they were patriots in the true sense.

Speaking from my own experience, as a teacher, I received two deferrments. Then, the deferrments were no longer available, and I was called for my physical exam. If not for high blood pressure, I would have been required to serve, as did my brother and ten of thousands of others. Somehow, this "patriot" managed to finesse the system so that he was never even called for a physical exam. And, years later, he became one of the chief architects (along with Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld who also failed to serve) of our present war.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion in our society, so I respect your opinion. However, I strongly disagree with your characterization of this man as a patriot. Based on his record with the Draft Board, with Halliburton, and now as the V.P., perhaps opportunist might be a better characterization of Mr. Cheney.
Scorereader
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 10:03:18
for those that read my response to all this political crap. Just ignore my response, I don't want to egg anyone on. Especially now that I deleted it and replaced it with this joke ripped from the headlines...or rather ripped off from Leno:

That’s the big story over the weekend. On a quail hunting trip in Texas, Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78 year old lawyer. In fact when people found out he shot a lawyer his popularity is now at 92%!
tmiles
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 12:35:16
quote:
Originally posted by Jimeats

Who hijacked this thread? I think it said insert joke here. And here I was sitting here wating for all the good punch lines. Come on there must be more out there. Vivere,mangarie,bibita e essera allegro. Ciao Jim


I was wondering the same thing. This will be standup fodder for years, so where are the jokes?
1bbqboy
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 12:48:41
...Now THIS is funny.
*
Ballot botch: Coulter votes in wrong precinct

By Jose Lambiet

Palm Beach Post Columnist

Wednesday, February 15, 2006

She may be smart enough to earn millions from her acidic political barbs, but when it comes to something as simple as voting in her tiny hometown, hard-core conservative pundit Ann Coulter is a tad confused.

Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections records show Coulter voted last week in Palm Beach's council election. Problem is: She cast her ballot in a precinct 4 miles north of the precinct where she owns a home — and that could be a big no-no.
Coulter, who owns a $1.8 million crib on Seabreeze Avenue, should have voted in Precinct 1198. It covers most homes on her street. Instead, records show, she voted in Precinct 1196, at the northern tip of the island.

A fave on the college speaking circuit and the occasional target of cream-pies-to-the-face, Coulter registered as a Republican (no kidding!) with the supervisor's office June 24. That's three months after she bought the home and moved to Palm Beach from Manhattan.

Here's the sticky part for The Right's Lady Macbeth: She wrote down an Indian Road address instead of Seabreeze on her voter's registration application. And she signed to certify the information as true.

"She never lived here," said Suzanne Frisbie, owner of the Indian Road home. "I'm Ann's Realtor, and she used this address to forward mail when she moved from New York."

Coulter didn't respond to requests for comment. But the blond GOP pit bull's former agent, Joani Evans, last year told Page Two Coulter left NYC to escape stalkers.

Is a desire to hold on to privacy the reason she gave the wrong address?

"I know but I'm not going to say," Frisbie replied.

No matter, Florida statutes make it a third-degree felony to vote knowingly in the wrong precinct. Lying on a voter's registration can cost up to $5,000 and five years behind bars.

"We're not a policing agency," says Elections Chief Deputy Charmaine Kelly. "You do not have to show proof that you live at your address. But when you sign the registration application, you also take an oath that everything you wrote is the truth.

"If someone brings us proof that a person falsified a registration, we'll check into it, then refer the matter to the state attorney's office if necessary."
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/celebrities/content/local_news/epaper/2006/02/15/a2a_josecol_0215.html

Bushie
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 12:48:48
http://jewishworldreview.com/0206/blankley021506.php3
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 12:49:49
quote:
Originally posted by tmiles

quote:
Originally posted by Jimeats

Who hijacked this thread? I think it said insert joke here. And here I was sitting here wating for all the good punch lines. Come on there must be more out there. Vivere,mangarie,bibita e essera allegro. Ciao Jim


I was wondering the same thing. This will be standup fodder for years, so where are the jokes?


The only real cause for laughter in this is schadenfreude (forgive my German spelling). If you're of the R persuasion, a fellow party stalwart and major contributor has been seriously hurt and a bigtime elected official is in some hot water over it. If you are a D, you are disturbed by the way local officials and the White House Press office are operating. I think what laughter there is has a very nervous edge. Personally I laughed hard at Jon Stewart's show Monday night, but when I stopped laughing I felt a bit guilty--at least until Mr. Whittington gets out of the hospital. I suspect he isn't laughing (depending on what drugs they're giving him).
sizz
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 14:02:54
quote:
Jimeats Posted - 02/15/2006 : 07:08:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who hijacked this thread? I think it said insert joke here. And here I was sitting here wating for all the good punch lines. Come on there must be more out there. Vivere,mangarie,bibita e essera allegro. Ciao Jim

.Jimeats............ there isn't anything funny about our Vice President accidentally shooting a hunting companion and good friend in the face with buck shot.
You anti Bush liberals are only paying us back for the time we all had a good laught at your President Clinton when we he also shot some one in the face, and in the Presidential Oval Office to boot, and then lied about it. .............. "oooooooh the humanity"
Find any humor in that Jimmy?
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 17:44:53
Perhaps this is all just a re-enactment of a good movie:
quote:
Plot Summary for
The Shooting Party (1985)

Autumn, 1913: on the eve of the Great War, a small party of lords and ladies gather at the Hertfordshire estate of Sir Randolph Nettleby. A code of propriety governs all: dress, breakfast, relations with the estate's peasants, courtship, shooting, adultery. Lionel Stephens, who is courting Sir Randolph's daughter, gets into a shooting competition with Lord Gilbert Hartlip; Lord Gilbert's wife carries on discreet affairs; a pamphleteer circles the estate calling for no more killing, and Sir Robert's grandson hopes to protect a wild duck he's befriended. A way of life is ending: Lord Gilbert's violation of the gentlemen's code suggests internal rot as the real world presses in.


Lord Gilbert's sin, reportedly, is being too competitive and taking a shot he should not have, causing Sir Randolph to tell him, "You were not shooting like a gentleman, Gilbert." That may turn out to be the biggest sin here. Stumbling out of a motorcade full of retainers in order to kill pen-raised half-tame quail?? Tsk, tsk. You were not shooting like a gentleman, Dick!
BT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 17:52:25
Just for fpczyz and the others who things the VP has some sort of legal immunity:
quote:
Cheney Could Face Charges in Shooting
- By MATT CURRY, Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, February 15, 2006


(02-15) 13:34 PST DALLAS (AP) --

If the man wounded by Dick Cheney dies, the vice president could — in theory at least — face criminal charges, even though the shooting was an accident.

Dallas defense attorney David Finn, who has been a state and a federal prosecutor, said Wednesday that a Texas grand jury could bring a charge of criminally negligent homicide if there is evidence the vice president knew or should have known "there was a substantial or unjustifiable risk that his actions would result in him shooting a fellow hunter."

"The risk must be of such a nature and degree that it got to be pretty outrageous — that a reasonable person would have to say, `I am not pulling the trigger because this other guy might be in front of me,'" Finn said.

The charge carries up to two years behind bars, but with no previous felonies Cheney would be eligible for probation, the former prosecutor said.

Manslaughter, a more serious charge, would require a prosecutor to prove Cheney was reckless, which would be "virtually impossible under the facts we know today," said Michael Sharlot, professor of criminal law at the University of Texas at Austin.

"With recklessness, the defendant has to be aware of the risk, but choose to ignore it. With negligence, he doesn't have to be conscious of the risk, but a reasonable person would have been," Sharlot said.

As vice president, Cheney has no immunity from prosecution.

Mark Skurka, first assistant district attorney of the three-county area where the shooting took place, said prosecutors did not have an investigation under way.

"If something unfortunate happens, then we'll decide what to do, then we'll decide whether we're going to have an investigation or not," Skurka said.

If District Attorney Carlos Valdez decided to pursue charges, he would forward the matter to a grand jury, which would determine whether to indict Cheney. Valdez, a Democrat, is best known for his prosecution of Yolanda Saldivar, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1995 slaying of Tejano singer Selena.

Harry Whittington, a 78-year-old lawyer, was struck in the face, neck and chest with shotgun pellets over the weekend while Cheney was shooting at quail. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack Tuesday after a pellet traveled to his heart.

On Wednesday, hospital officials said he had a normal heart rhythm again and was sitting up in a chair, eating regular food and planned to do some legal work in his hospital room. Doctors said they are highly optimistic he will recover.

In a TV interview Wednesday, the vice president accepted full blame for the shooting and defended his decision not to publicly disclose the accident until the following day. He called it "one of the worst days of my life."

If Whittington recovers, Cheney could still face a felony charge of negligently causing injury to an aged person, Sharlot said. But he said such a charge would be "quite unusual" in the case of a hunting accident.

In the only other case of someone being shot by a vice president, Aaron Burr was indicted on murder charges in New York and New Jersey for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel in 1804, but he was never tried and finished out his term in office.


URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/n/a/2006/02/15/national/w114746S90.DTL

tamandmik
Double Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 18:04:36
Tedbear
Double Chili Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 18:08:02
quote:
Originally posted by Sundancer7

quote:
Originally posted by Tedbear

Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

/quote]

You opinion is your opinion and I respect that. Mr. Cheney was making mega bucks with Halliburton. He certainly took a cut in pay when he agreed to take the current job. I sincerely believe he is a patriot not because of his military service but because he was willing to serve in a position of minimum pay, receive constant criticism and still work behind the scenes in what he believe is in the best interest of the USA.

I do understand that many do not have the same feelings. I respect those views. I just merely expressed what I thought.

If I had been him, I would have never taken the job that he currently has. The constant criticism is not worth it. As a matter of fact from my point of view is if I had been George W, I would not have wanted that job either. Neither of them pay enough.

I believe that the current President and his vice has endured more during their tenure than any other leader we have had.

I am glad that I am semi retired.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


Paul--I'm just curious about something here. Does your view of him as "a patriot" include the fact that he received an unusually large number of draft deferments back during the Vietnam Era? (While I hesitate to come up with a specific number, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe that he received draft deferments seven times.)

When questioned years later about his lack of service in the military, his response was, "I had other priorities". I am quite sure that the thousands of guys who perished in the Vietnam War had other priorities too, but they didn't have the connections to be deferred, as he was. Or, perhaps, they were patriots in the true sense.

Speaking from my own experience, as a teacher, I received two deferrments. Then, the deferrments were no longer available, and I was called for my physical exam. If not for high blood pressure, I would have been required to serve, as did my brother and ten of thousands of others. Somehow, this "patriot" managed to finesse the system so that he was never even called for a physical exam. And, years later, he became one of the chief architects (along with Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld who also failed to serve) of our present war.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion in our society, so I respect your opinion. However, I strongly disagree with your characterization of this man as a patriot. Based on his record with the Draft Board, with Halliburton, and now as the V.P., perhaps opportunist might be a better characterization of Mr. Cheney.




Paul--I really don't want to drag this out ad infinitum (or ad nauseum!), but I want to correct something else that you stated about Mr. Cheney. He is still drawing a VERY large chunk of money each year (deferred compensation, or something of that order) from Halliburton. That is just one of the many reasons why Halliburton's favored position for securing government contracts has come under some criticism. Naturally, that criticism has been squelched.

However, the fact remains that he derives considerable income to this day from the company that is the biggest recipient of government contracts in Iraq. (You know--the company that does not allow our troops to eat second helpings in the Mess Halls that they run. How's that for relevance to this site!)
Sundancer7
Fire Safety Admin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 18:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by Tedbear

quote:
Originally posted by Sundancer7

quote:
Originally posted by Tedbear

Originally posted by Sundancer7

Personally I regard Cheney as a patriot. I know that many of you do not and that is your opinion. I think the guy gave up a great job just to assist at far less money. I realize that he was extremely wealthy but I sincerely believe the best interst in the USA is in his heart.

/quote]

You opinion is your opinion and I respect that. Mr. Cheney was making mega bucks with Halliburton. He certainly took a cut in pay when he agreed to take the current job. I sincerely believe he is a patriot not because of his military service but because he was willing to serve in a position of minimum pay, receive constant criticism and still work behind the scenes in what he believe is in the best interest of the USA.

I do understand that many do not have the same feelings. I respect those views. I just merely expressed what I thought.

If I had been him, I would have never taken the job that he currently has. The constant criticism is not worth it. As a matter of fact from my point of view is if I had been George W, I would not have wanted that job either. Neither of them pay enough.

I believe that the current President and his vice has endured more during their tenure than any other leader we have had.

I am glad that I am semi retired.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN


Paul--I'm just curious about something here. Does your view of him as "a patriot" include the fact that he received an unusually large number of draft deferments back during the Vietnam Era? (While I hesitate to come up with a specific number, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe that he received draft deferments seven times.)

When questioned years later about his lack of service in the military, his response was, "I had other priorities". I am quite sure that the thousands of guys who perished in the Vietnam War had other priorities too, but they didn't have the connections to be deferred, as he was. Or, perhaps, they were patriots in the true sense.

Speaking from my own experience, as a teacher, I received two deferrments. Then, the deferrments were no longer available, and I was called for my physical exam. If not for high blood pressure, I would have been required to serve, as did my brother and ten of thousands of others. Somehow, this "patriot" managed to finesse the system so that he was never even called for a physical exam. And, years later, he became one of the chief architects (along with Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld who also failed to serve) of our present war.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion in our society, so I respect your opinion. However, I strongly disagree with your characterization of this man as a patriot. Based on his record with the Draft Board, with Halliburton, and now as the V.P., perhaps opportunist might be a better characterization of Mr. Cheney.




Paul--I really don't want to drag this out ad infinitum (or ad nauseum!), but I want to correct something else that you stated about Mr. Cheney. He is still drawing a VERY large chunk of money each year (deferred compensation, or something of that order) from Halliburton. That is just one of the many reasons why Halliburton's favored position for securing government contracts has come under some criticism. Naturally, that criticism has been squelched.

However, the fact remains that he derives considerable income to this day from the company that is the biggest recipient of government contracts in Iraq. (You know--the company that does not allow our troops to eat second helpings in the Mess Halls that they run. How's that for relevance to this site!)


Your thoughts are your thoughts and mine are mine. You may not admire him but I do. Lets let it go at that.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN
cornfed
Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 18:47:14
So Quayle is alive?
CCJPO
Double Cheeseburger
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 19:11:59
To those of you who remember these sage words.

"This is my rifle(shotgun), this is my gun, this one is for shooting, this one is for fun"

I find it really hard to equate what may have been a accidental "discharge" of a gun, with an apparently willing participant, to the willful act of discharging a rifle (shotgun) at an unwilling
participant. Even in an accidental shooting.
roossy90
Sirloin
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/15 21:00:57
SATIRE--
Someone sent this to me:
-----------------
Tuesday, February 14, 2006
DOJ Memo Defends Cheney Shooting


JB

Frankly, I don't understand all the fuss about Vice President Cheney's shooting of Harry Whittington. This unsigned Department of Justice Memorandum, which was slipped under my door this morning, explains it all:

* * * * *

Under the unitary executive theory of Article II, the President of the United States, as Commander-in-Chief, has inherent authority to shoot anyone he likes, and he may surely delegate that authority to his second in command, the Vice President of the United States. Indeed, to the extent that federal law or state tort law is to the contrary, we must read all such laws in harmony with the inherent powers of the President as head of the unitary executive in order to avoid any potential constitutional conflict. As the President himself noted in his recent signing statement to the McCain Amendment, laws that purport to limit the President's authority to use force in time of war must be construed "in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the president to supervise the unitary executive branch and as commander in chief."

The Executive's ability to identify enemy combatants and apprehend or, if necessary, shoot them on the field of battle is fully recognized under the laws of war. There is no doubt that it is fully within the President's powers under the laws of war to identify enemy combatants and apprehend, or if necessary, shoot them in order to prevent them from returning to the battlefield where they may do harm to the interests of the United States. In this case, it is undisputed that Harry Whittington (if that is his *real* name) was carrying arms in close proximity to the Vice President of the United States, and, moreover, in the very same state as the President's Crawford, Texas, residence.

It was therefore completely within the Vice-President's discretion to determine that the said Whittington was an enemy combatant who posed a threat, whether real, potential, imagined or fictitious, to the national security of the United States. Media accounts do not reveal what Harry Whittington's name was before he changed it; it is entirely possible, however, that his real name is Ari Al-Whittington and that he is an Al Qaeda operative, or is associated with groups who are associated with Al Qaeda, or is associated with groups who are associated with groups who are associated with Al Qaeda. And so on.

The objection that Al-Whittington was found on American soil is completely without merit. We are dealing with questions of war, not the criminal or civil process. What so-called "civil libertarians" still don't understand is that 9-11 changed everything. Thousands of people died in the World Trade Center *on American soil.* Discovering Al Qaeda operatives on American soil, or those that executive suspects, whether reasonably or unreasonably, to be Al Qaeda operatives, does not bestow upon such "persons" the "right" to call upon the criminal justice system, much less the civil tort system. We note, moreover, that the President's constitutional obligation in Article II, section 3, to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed" fully supports these conclusions. If the President is constitutionally authorized to execute "laws," a fortiori he is clearly authorized to execute "persons" by shooting them at his discretion.

Nor is the fact that Al-Whittington is a 78 year old businessman who has made substantial contributions to the Republican Party a reason to doubt the Vice-President's plenary determination that Al-Whittington may have links to Al Qaeda, or links to links to links to Al Qaeda. After all, if Al Qaeda wished to infiltrate the Executive branch it would be entirely logical to plant operatives posing as Republican businessmen who gave money to Republican causes because everyone knows that in this Administration the best way to gain access to Administration officials is to buy your way in. Indeed, precisely because money buys access in this Administration, the more money a businessman gives, the more justified the suspicion that the businessman is in fact in league with Al Qaeda, groups associated with Al Qaeda, groups associated with groups associated with Al Qaeda, and so on. The Vice-President's determination, whether reasonable, unreasonable, or completely under the influence of drugs, is therefore plenary and unreviewable, as is made clear by the text of the Constitution, which fails to say anything to the contrary.

Finally, even if one doubts the inherent authority of the unitary executive to identify and shoot persons like Al-Whittington, the September 18th, 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (hereinafter "AUMF") clearly gives the President authority "to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons." This authorization clearly includes persons like Al-Whittington, since the letters in the authorization can be rearranged to spell "Al-Whittington," not to mention "Al-Gore." (But we digress). Such Congressional authorization clearly trumps any federal or state law to the contrary, and all state or federal laws which may be passed in the future. In particular, the AUMF clearly obviates the need for Vice President Cheney to have purchased a hunting license from the State of Texas.

In sum, because of the President's inherent authority to supervise and direct the Unitary Executive Branch as Commander-in-Chief under Article II of the Constitution, Vice President Cheney was clearly authorized to shoot Ari Al-Whittington, enemy of the people, under the laws of war. Any suggestions to the contrary show ignorance of the original understanding of the United States Constitution, serve to give our enemies in the Global War on Terror aid and comfort, and in and of themselves constitute grounds for detention as an enemy combatant. We're serious. Don't f*** with us.

Department of Justice
John Yoo Building
Washington, D.C.

EliseT
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/16 03:29:19
OK, if no one is going to go for the obvious, I will:

Teddy Kennedy was ribbing VP Cheney, "Hey, Dick! You want to go hunting this weekend?"

To which Cheney ripostes, "Sure, but I'M driving!"

mr chips
Filet Mignon
RE: Cheney shoots lawyer(insert joke here) 2006/02/16 03:43:49
From Leno
When the ambulance crew got to shooting victim, they started to put Cheney on the stretcher from force of habit.
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