Southern Cal Burger Culture - Fact or Fiction?

Wow, what an interesting thread. Love the debate. And now for my two cents.

(1) Burgers are a national food, beloved by most. That is the reason burger chains have gone national. Reviews of non-chain restaurants that serve good burgers are appropriate from anywhere. I've seen folks talk about burger places in Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and all points in between on these fora and find that entirely appropriate. Finding a place to eat a good burger and to get a taste of the local culture is one of the best things about these fora and i appreciate the Sterns and anyone else who takes the time to point me in the direction of a good burger.
(2) Cajun King made the point better than I can but the Southern California burger culture is intimately tied in to the idea of California automotive culture and its place in popular culture memory. "Fun, Fun, Fun" by the Beach Boys, "Dead Man"s Curve" by Jan and Dean and "Little Old Lady from Pasadena" by both are the best examples of popular music culture's take on Socal and cars. There are other places that had drive-ins but television as a center of popular culture cemented Socal as a center of car culture as did the much publicized drive-in churches that I remember reading about when I was younger.
(3) My take on LA now is that mexican food would be the best representative of what most people eat. And going to the incredible variety of ethnic eateries would give you the best picture of LA life today.. The Cobb salad, cafeteria, and coffee shop were historical contributions of Socal but Cobb salads are not too popular anymore and the cafeteria and coffe shop have changed as they moved away from Socal((the San Diego pie shop was a great meal and a nice trip back to the 50's when the Chips family ate there a couple years ago).
(4) I think the most impactful food culture contribution that Socal has made to the modern world has been the cult of the superstar chef.
(5) More socal folks go to coffee joints than juice bars these days.

quote:

Originally posted by David_NYC

These are four kinds of places selling food and beverages that I don't patronize:
juice bars
smoothie shops
casual teryaki/sushi joints
veggie restaurants

Can anyone make the case that the majority of the people who read the Roadfood books go often to the four types of establishments from WJ's list?

I forgot to address this.
I'm going to speculate that many who post on the forum don't which could be the reason why the Stern's stopped reviewing these establishments, and could very well be the reason why Juice Kaboose was removed- I went there 2 years ago and thought the place screamed "definitive So-Cal Roadfood" hence the reason it was reviewed on the forum. I remember Enginecapt inquiring about "health food" as he called it and its "uniqueness" to Southern California, and my response is "yes it is unique" to So-Cal I don't see these place in Providence, New York and Pittsburgh- they are extremely few and far between, however I believe that Enginecapt is the "moral majority" here on the forum and not I, hence probably the reason it was removed on the other hand, however I'm also going to speculate that there are many, many others who don't post on the forum, and are fans of the Sterns and they do go to these establishments

quote:

Originally posted by mr chips

3) my take on LA now is that mexican food would be the best representative of what most people eat.

That's beyond a doubt Mr. Chips. Thats why I didn't even bring up Mexican Food- it's obviously a "given"

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by David_NYC

These are four kinds of places selling food and beverages that I don't patronize:
juice bars
smoothie shops
casual teryaki/sushi joints
veggie restaurants

Can anyone make the case that the majority of the people who read the Roadfood books go often to the four types of establishments from WJ's list?

I forgot to address this.
I'm going to speculate that many who post on the forum don't which could be the reason why the Stern's stopped reviewing these establishments, however I'm also going to speculate that there are many, many others who don't post on the forum, and are fans of the Sterns and they do go to these establishments

If what you postulate is indeed so, to what cause or causes do you attribute this difference?

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

I'm going to speculate that many who post on the forum don't which could be the reason why the Stern's stopped reviewing these establishments, and could very well be the reason why Juice Kaboose was removed

Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

I'd remove it on name alone

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

Your response was "they changed their minds" was rather general I guess the question is why? They didn't go out of business- did they change ownership? Did they change format? did the quality go down? Is it any different than when the Stern's first visited- Did they return for a subsequent visit and then decide? Or did they just decide that it didn't fit in the "roadfood format" and if so, why? Could it really be that different from The Orange Inn, or The OB Juice Bar which were included in the previous roadfood books?

wanderingjew, What this is all coming down to is you have a minority opinion if you think most forum members here don't consider what you consider as road food. You do seem to be making a broad assumption that the Sterns are guided by that. Maybe the Sterns are just guided by their own preferences.

You also seem hung up on signature foods. That is not necessarily road food either unless the place is right. Wolfgang Puck is attributed for creating what is considered the California style pizza that has become a signature food. However, if only served in a corporate high end Wolfgang Puck hotel restaurant it isn't road food. It would be worthy road food if that signature style was found in the many road food worthy pizzerias. Heck, one of the best examples of that adaption is Pyscho Suzi's In Minneapolis that was featured in a Diners, Drive-ins and Dives episode. http://www.psychosuzis.com/ But then I would expect you would argue it wouldn't be road food worthy because it wasn't in California.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

Your response was "they changed their minds" was rather general I guess the question is why? They didn't go out of business- did they change ownership? Did they change format? did the quality go down? Is it any different than when the Stern's first visited- Did they return for a subsequent visit and then decide? Or did they just decide that it didn't fit in the "roadfood format" and if so, why? Could it really be that different from The Orange Inn, or The OB Juice Bar which were included in the previous roadfood books?

I was in on the conference call where the decision was made; we periodically do this for all the places reviewed here. I don't recall Michael's exact words, but the gist was something like: "I don't know what I was thinking, that place was nothing special, let's remove it."

WJ, I don't understand the rant. Burgers area roadfood too. Personally I look at Roadfood as somewhere to stop for a meal while traveling. Not a dressy place and fairly inexpensive. Burgers, dogs, "lobstah" rolls and breakfast items are all roadfood to me. I wouldn't stop at a juice bar unless they sold burgers, dogs, "lobstah" rolls or breakfast items. I think the Sterns are following the Roadfood genre just fine. Besides, the site is really hot dog heavy as Michael prefers them. So maybe they are trying to balance the menu so to speak. Either that's the reason, or Jane is driving.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

Your response was "they changed their minds" was rather general I guess the question is why? They didn't go out of business- did they change ownership? Did they change format? did the quality go down? Is it any different than when the Stern's first visited- Did they return for a subsequent visit and then decide? Or did they just decide that it didn't fit in the "roadfood format" and if so, why? Could it really be that different from The Orange Inn, or The OB Juice Bar which were included in the previous roadfood books?

The Rincon Market in Tucson, Arizona was removed from the restaurant list last year. So was the Riverside Barbecue in Seaside, Oregon and the Amadeus restaurant in Salem, Oregon. I only noticed because I have eaten in all three. I accounted no conspiracy on this, simply a change of mind or a belief the initial jugement was wrong. Food reviewing is an inexact art. Dale visited Portland, Oregon last year and did not like Halibut's, Sam, Trudy, myself and Michael Stern had great experiences. There are simply likes and dislikes which can change over time.

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

Maybe the Sterns are just guided by their own preferences.

I think that's it in a nutshell.

quote:

Originally posted by mr chips

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

Your response was "they changed their minds" was rather general I guess the question is why? They didn't go out of business- did they change ownership? Did they change format? did the quality go down? Is it any different than when the Stern's first visited- Did they return for a subsequent visit and then decide? Or did they just decide that it didn't fit in the "roadfood format" and if so, why? Could it really be that different from The Orange Inn, or The OB Juice Bar which were included in the previous roadfood books?

The Rincon Market in Tucson, Arizona was removed from the restaurant list last year. So was the Riverside Barbecue in Seaside, Oregon and the Amadeus restaurant in Salem, Oregon. I only noticed because I have eaten in all three. I accounted no conspiracy on this, simply a change of mind or a belief the initial jugement was wrong. Food reviewing is an inexact art. Dale visited Portland, Oregon last year and did not like Halibut's, Sam, Trudy, myself and Michael Stern had great experiences. There are simply likes and dislikes which can change over time.

From the new edition of Roadfood:

"It is torture writing a new edition of Roadfood with over 175 restaurants that weren't in the last one. Because we need this book to be wieldy, we had to cut out nearly that many old favorites. If a place included in a previous edition of Roadfood is not here, you should not assume we no longer like it." [emphasis added] "...it may have been removed to make room for new discoveries that we believe merit your attention."

"We especially seek out restaurants that sing of their region and community and serve a meal that is part of locals' sense of self and place."

quote:

Originally posted by mr chips

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle
Why do you still hold on to that idea about why Juice Kaboose was removed when I already told you why it was removed? Your theory is simply wrong.

Your response was "they changed their minds" was rather general I guess the question is why? They didn't go out of business- did they change ownership? Did they change format? did the quality go down? Is it any different than when the Stern's first visited- Did they return for a subsequent visit and then decide? Or did they just decide that it didn't fit in the "roadfood format" and if so, why? Could it really be that different from The Orange Inn, or The OB Juice Bar which were included in the previous roadfood books?

The Rincon Market in Tucson, Arizona was removed from the restaurant list last year. So was the Riverside Barbecue in Seaside, Oregon and the Amadeus restaurant in Salem, Oregon. I only noticed because I have eaten in all three. I accounted no conspiracy on this, simply a change of mind or a belief the initial jugement was wrong. Food reviewing is an inexact art. Dale visited Portland, Oregon last year and did not like Halibut's, Sam, Trudy, myself and Michael Stern had great experiences. There are simply likes and dislikes which can change over time.

Of course. Absolutely. It's as simple as that. There really is no grand plan, no set of rules to abide by. A lot of it is happenstance. Example: we spend a fair amount of time in Rochester visiting with family. We're usually occupied at mealtimes, but free for breakfasts, so we have the chance to find great breakfast spots in Rochester. We did that, and wrote them up. Doen't mean we're trying to say that Rochester specializes in breakfast. It's just that we haven't had the chance to explore great dinners as fully.

It's probably like that for other reviewers as well, including the Sterns. Maybe they get out to SoCal once a year. Maybe one time they were there to investigate burgers for Gourmet magazine. Maybe another time they tried to revisit some of the old smoothie shops and found they had closed. Maybe they tried to include one or two new smoothie shops on another trip and found that one place was closed for vacation and the other closed at 3P and they arrived at 4P. No big deal, they just move on to something else. Maybe they had more interesting things to investigate.

That's just how it works. There's no need to draw great conclusions from the omission of a restaurant, or a local specialty. It's not that rigorous a process.

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

wanderingjew, What this is all coming down to is you have a minority opinion if you think most forum members here don't consider what you consider as road food.

You're right I probably do if my assumption is correct that
many on the forum think that roadfood is limited to clam shacks,
bbq pits, pizza parlours, diners and greasy spoons on the wrong side of tracks
Here is a list (and this is just from the 1987 edition of the Roadfood and Goodfood book and only a sample of places in this book alone) of restaurants that would be dismissed by the "majority opinion" on the forum as not being roadfood do their limited definition of roadfood.

The Inn at Chester- Chester CT
Durgin Park- Boston MA
Locke-Ober- Boston MA
Union Oyster House- Boston MA
Sagres Restaurant- Fall River MA
The Chesapeake- Baltimore MD
Eckle's- Orchard Park NY
Franks- New York, NY
Bookbinders Seafood House- Philadelphia PA


And this is just the Northeast- I could go on, but I don't have the time!

Some other examples that come to mind are Joe's Stone Crab in Miami,
The Golden Ox in Kansas City, and the Grille on the Alley in Beverly Hills

I think you might respond that restaurants like these would belong on e-gullet or chowhound- I DISAGREE- THIS IS ROADFOOD
not French Continental Cusine

quote:

You also seem hung up on signature foods. That is not necessarily road food either unless the place is right. Wolfgang Puck is attributed for creating what is considered the California style pizza that has become a signature food. However, if only served in a corporate high end Wolfgang Puck hotel restaurant it isn't road food. It would be worthy road food if that signature style was found in the many road food worthy pizzerias. Heck, one of the best examples of that adaption is Pyscho Suzi's In Minneapolis that was featured in a Diners, Drive-ins and Dives episode. http://www.psychosuzis.com/ But then I would expect you would argue it wouldn't be road food worthy because it wasn't in California.

I agree about the corporate setting, however as far as being "hung up on signature food" here's another quote from the Stern's from that book "Because of our strong feelings for savoring food in its natural setting, we haven't included regional restaurants that our outside their region. There may be a great oyster bar in Kansas or gumbo parlor in Manhattan, but you won't find it here?

Oh, and someone brings up that the quote is from 20 years ago, I thought I would include another quote from their recent edition " We especially seek out restaurants that sing of their region and community and serve a meal that is part of locals' sense of self and of place. There may be a fantastic Cajun Restaurant in Sioux City but it is our belief that the experience eating gumbo in the bayous,elbow to elbow with the people who live there, listening to their music and hearing their unique way of talking, cannot be tasted in full measure anywhere else."

To give you an example of places in your hometown of Indianapolis- In my opinion, Dodd's Town House and Hollyhock Hill not only had excellent food but these restaurants wreaked of local character, even Gray's Cafeteria too. Green Street on the other hand I thought was a "non descript bar" however the BPT was fantastic.

In Minnesota (your adopted home state), Crabtree's Kitchen, Anderson House and Tavern on Grand also wreaks (wreaked) of local character and had great food. Hells Kitchen on the other hand had great food, but there was nothing about the atmosphere that was "definitely Minnesotan"

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew
however I believe that Enginecapt is the "moral majority" here on the forum

Now you've gone too far. I don't have a moral bone in my body.

Of course I have to disagree with you on several points, WJ. Hell's Kitchen does indeed have a Minnesotan atmosphere. Tatoos, piercings and purple and green hair are definitely Minnesotan and have been for at least the last 25 years.

As for the Golden Ox here in KC, YUCK!!! The place is gross and as a food professional, I do not want to be associated with that place as indicative of good KC food. Although the location is where the stockyards were eons ago, it sucks! It has nothing to do with roadfood in KC. Try Jerry's Woodswether Cafe or Kitty's Diner. Or Town Topic. They much more represent roadfood here. Or even EL Pulgarcita Salvadorean. All of those places have much more integrity than the Golden Ox has had for years. And all are roadworthy places.

BUT... I have to agree with you about Southern Californian food. I had my first smoothie there, my first Cobb Salad there. Loved them both. Had a Phillipe's French Dip...hated it.
But I've never been anywhere else that has had the smoothies, Cobb salads or those smelly French dips that compared with those in LA/Orange County.

quote:

Originally posted by zataar

Of course I have to disagree with you on several points, WJ. Hell's Kitchen does indeed have a Minnesotan atmosphere. Tatoos, piercings and purple and green hair are definitely Minnesotan and have been for at least the last 25 years.

Well, if that's the case, then it also has a Seattle Atmosphere, A Pittsburgh Atmosphere, a NYC atmospher, a Rhode Island Atmospher and , oh well. you get my drift!

quote:

As for the Golden Ox here in KC, YUCK!!! The place is gross and as a food professional, I do not want to be associated with that place as indicative of good KC food. Although the location is where the stockyards were eons ago, it sucks! It has nothing to do with roadfood in KC.

What??!! I was there in 2000- it was actually in one of the Roadfood books- it was truly one of the best steakhouses I've ever been too- it blew Lugers right out of the water. I heard that the place took a dive a few years later, closed briefly and then reopened again with rave reviews. Did it take a tumble again? I'll have to check the recent reviews of the place. Don't worry- we won't be heading there on our trip to KC in June- sadly I won't have time to visit any of those other places you mentioned.

To me the soul of KC will always be Arthur Bryants and Strouds!

zataar, the Golden Ox is in the book so wanderingjew blesses it. Jerry's Woodswether Cafe is not in the book so that would be a no go and wild horses probably wouldn't pull him in. I've been to both and I agree with you. The Golden Ox is not road food nor in this day and age is there really a reason to recommend it. It seem to me to be a dated business luncheon type place and I would assume an oldtimers evening dinner place. The closest I could pin it to be similar would be Jax in northeast Minneapolis with a touch of Murray's (in the book, BTW). Maybe a lot of history but not much more.

You have to know Minneapolis intimately to understand Hell's Kitchen. He evidently has never seen Suzie of Psycho Suzi's. Doncha know Wanderingjew tinks we are all buncha Scandinavians fer shure in Minnesota. Ya you betcha.

wanderingjew, I eat at a lot of places and there are a lot of places I really like but I would not necessarily classify some of those places as road food. Just because they are in the Stern's book does not make them road food in my mind. They may be in the Stern's mind. When I look at the inclusion of Murray's in Minneapolis in the book I can only think that they went, liked it and decided not let the visit go to waste. Still, it is not road food by all the definitions especially the one on the home page here. Road food for me is Lyon's Pub next door to Murrays. You seek the place, character and atmosphere or you seek the food. There are other food forums that seek food and argue about what is the very best. Those same people might gag on over half of the places under discussion here because they wouldn't be caught dead on the wrong side of the tracks like Woodswether Cafe.

I think a sushi burger is the solution to WJ's anguish, chased with a hamburger and avocado smoothie

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

zataar,

wanderingjew, I eat at a lot of places and there are a lot of places I really like but I would not necessarily classify some of those places as road food. Just because they are in the Stern's book does not make them road food in my mind. They may be in the Stern's mind. When I look at the inclusion of Murray's in Minneapolis in the book I can only think that they went, liked it and decided not let the visit go to waste. Still, it is not road food by all the definitions especially the one on the home page here. Road food for me is Lyon's Pub next door to Murrays. You seek the place, character and atmosphere or you seek the food. There are other food forums that seek food and argue about what is the very best. Those same people might gag on over half of the places under discussion here because they wouldn't be caught dead on the wrong side of the tracks like Woodswether Cafe.

I've never understood how places like the sainted Peter Lugar's, or Grill on the Alley could ever be considered Roadfood by even the loosest interpretation of the "Roadfood Creed" on the home page of this forum. One of the defining items is "sleeves up. . .informal and inexpensive." Places like Lugar's, Murrays, Grill on the Alley do not in anyway meet that criteria. But, if they do, then so does Wolfgang Pucks many places or Emeril's or Gary Danko's or a whole bunch of others.

quote:

Originally posted by Davydd

zataar, the Golden Ox is in the book so wanderingjew blesses it. Jerry's Woodswether Cafe is not in the book so that would be a no go and wild horses probably wouldn't pull him in. I've been to both and I agree with you. The Golden Ox is not road food nor in this day and age is there really a reason to recommend it. It seem to me to be a dated business luncheon type place and I would assume an oldtimers evening dinner place. The closest I could pin it to be similar would be Jax in northeast Minneapolis with a touch of Murray's (in the book, BTW). Maybe a lot of history but not much more.

You have to know Minneapolis intimately to understand Hell's Kitchen. He evidently has never seen Suzie of Psycho Suzi's. Doncha know Wanderingjew tinks we are all buncha Scandinavians fer shure in Minnesota. Ya you betcha.

wanderingjew, I eat at a lot of places and there are a lot of places I really like but I would not necessarily classify some of those places as road food. Just because they are in the Stern's book does not make them road food in my mind. They may be in the Stern's mind. When I look at the inclusion of Murray's in Minneapolis in the book I can only think that they went, liked it and decided not let the visit go to waste. Still, it is not road food by all the definitions especially the one on the home page here. Road food for me is Lyon's Pub next door to Murrays. You seek the place, character and atmosphere or you seek the food. There are other food forums that seek food and argue about what is the very best. Those same people might gag on over half of the places under discussion here because they wouldn't be caught dead on the wrong side of the tracks like Woodswether Cafe.

First of all, I don't have unlimited expense account, or unlimited time to blindly go to places that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps one day I can. I and many, many others do rely on the Sterns and the Roadfood books to seek out these places. I'll admit there are very few places either in the book or reviewed on the forum that I was dissapointed in.

As far as the Golden Ox is concerned, I never "blessed it" because it was in the roadfood book. I can truly recall that the KC STrip was truly the best I've ever had. The sides were ok and the Gin Martini was excellently prepared.

On the other hand, I went to Harold's BBQ in Atlanta, also recommended on Roadfood and I'm still amazed that I didn't get food poisoning.

You know very well based on my trip reports that I've gone to restaurants that were not in the book or on the forum, some were recommended by others and some I blindly went to. Locally I can do that- when I travel with limited time and resources I can't do that as extensively.

if you don't think that the Golden Ox is not "roadfood" then that's your opinion, however to me, a Midwestern Steakhouse is definitive Roadfood.

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King
I've never understood how places like the sainted Peter Lugar's, or Grill on the Alley could ever be considered Roadfood by even the loosest interpretation of the "Roadfood Creed" on the home page of this forum. One of the defining items is "sleeves up. . .informal and inexpensive." Places like Lugar's, Murrays, Grill on the Alley do not in anyway meet that criteria. But, if they do, then so does Wolfgang Pucks many places or Emeril's or Gary Danko's or a whole bunch of others.

Again, you're using a very RIGID and LIMITED definition. I didn't think that Grill on the Alley was formal at all. No its not a greasy spoon on the other side of the tracks which it is now obvious that most members of the forum "think" is the only definition of roadfood. However, as I said previously, the place "wreaks of character" and serves the Best Cobb Salad I ever had, which by the way IS Southern California roadfood.
As I said before, I can't find a Cobb Salad like that in Rhode Island, not even close, however I can find tons of restaurants here in Rhode Island that serve burgers that will give any of the other places in LA a run for their money and then some. I can go one mile down the block to Ward's Publick house, which makes In and Out a laughable embarrassment.

By the way, the other places you mentioned are corporate chains, definetely not roadfood.

you tell em, wj.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King
I've never understood how places like the sainted Peter Lugar's, or Grill on the Alley could ever be considered Roadfood by even the loosest interpretation of the "Roadfood Creed" on the home page of this forum. One of the defining items is "sleeves up. . .informal and inexpensive." Places like Lugar's, Murrays, Grill on the Alley do not in anyway meet that criteria. But, if they do, then so does Wolfgang Pucks many places or Emeril's or Gary Danko's or a whole bunch of others.

Again, you're using a very RIGID and LIMITED definition. I didn't think that Grill on the Alley was formal at all. No its not a greasy spoon on the other side of the tracks which it is now obvious that most members of the forum "think" is the only definition of roadfood. However, as I said previously, the place "wreaks of character" and serves the Best Cobb Salad I ever had, which by the way IS Southern California roadfood.
As I said before, I can't find a Cobb Salad like that in Rhode Island, not even close, however I can find tons of restaurants here in Rhode Island that serve burgers that will give any of the other places in LA a run for their money and then some. I can go one mile down the block to Ward's Publick house, which makes In and Out a laughable embarrassment.

By the way, the other places you mentioned are corporate chains, definetely not roadfood.

First of all, what makes you think that The Grill on the Alley isn't a chain--3 locations in California, 1 in Illinois and 1 in Texas makes it a national chain (granted a smll one) in my book.
Second, I am born and raised in California and lived in LA for half my life and if I had to list 100 foods that define LA or Southern California for that matter a Cobb Salad would never be on the list.
Third, if quoting the Sterns defination is RIGID and LIMITED then so be it. It is you sir who is trying to change the rules of the game.

wanderingjew, what is it that makes Cobb salad Southern California Roadfood?

I believe the Cobb Salad was invented at The Brown Derby and was kind of a specialty salad in Hollywood and southern california.

quote:

Originally posted by mr chips

I believe the Cobb Salad was invented at The Brown Derby and was kind of a specialty salad in Hollywood and southern california.

But I guess my point is, isn't the Cobb salad pretty common these days nationally? Is it any more popular today in Southern California than the rest of the country? Maybe it is, but I doubt it. If its claim to Roadfoodiness is based on it being invented in Hollywood, then couldn't similar claims be made about the Caesar salad? Its history is very similar: invented a long time ago in either Tijuana or San Diego, initially very popular in Southern California but now popular nationally? Yet who thinks of a Caesar salad as California Roadfood?

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

quote:

Originally posted by mr chips

I believe the Cobb Salad was invented at The Brown Derby and was kind of a specialty salad in Hollywood and southern california.

But I guess my point is, isn't the Cobb salad pretty common these days nationally? Is it any more popular today in Southern California than the rest of the country? Maybe it is, but I doubt it. If its claim to Roadfoodiness is based on it being invented in Hollywood, then couldn't similar claims be made about the Caesar salad? Its history is very similar: invented a long time ago in either Tijuana or San Diego, initially very popular in Southern California but now popular nationally? Yet who thinks of a Caesar salad as California Roadfood?

I feel the same way about Ceasar Salad, that too is Southern California Roadfood.

Then again, who says Pizza is NY or Chicago roadfood. Aren't they both common nationally nowadays? And many believe that the Pizza in their region is just as good as the Pizza served in NYC.

All I know is after my Cobb Salad experience at the Grille on the Alley, I know realize how much every other Cobb Salad I've had in other parts of the country suck. First of all in other parts of the country the salad is 90% lettuce and 10% other- and the "the other ingredients" are usually items that DON'T EVEN BELONG in a Cobb Salad. And the dressing- almost always Blue Cheese. Not only that, but in general, the veggies I've had in California in general (and that includes San Francisco) tasted amazingly crisp and fresh.

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King
First of all, what makes you think that The Grill on the Alley isn't a chain--3 locations in California, 1 in Illinois and 1 in Texas makes it a national chain (granted a smll one) in my book.
Second, I am born and raised in California and lived in LA for half my life and if I had to list 100 foods that define LA or Southern California for that matter a Cobb Salad would never be on the list.
Third, if quoting the Sterns defination is RIGID and LIMITED then so be it. It is you sir who is trying to change the rules of the game.

Yes, you quoted the Sterns, and I'm certainly not changing the rules. I guess "informal" is in the eyes of the beholder and I guess the Sterns included these restaurants because they perceive (or perceived) them as informal and so do I.

Here is the KEY word my friend

Roadfood is ALMOST always informal and inexpensive

Oh, by the way, thanks to you, we can remove all of the New England Clam and Lobster Shacks- at $20 per lobster roll- they are far from
inexpensive.

Yes, similar to Pizzeria Uno in Chicago, The Grille is a chain, however similarly, the take offs known as the "Daily Grille" have no affiliation with the original in Beverly Hills.

It's nice to know that Cobb Salad is not on your list of Southern California cuisine, I'm sure that California Rolls and Smoothies aren't too- but let me take a guess- Burgers are! Even though the ones served here in the Ocean State are so much better.

Well Mr. Smartypants, once again you are wrong. ALL the (5 Grill on the Alleys and 15 Daily Grills) are part of the same company, which in fact is NASDAQ listed (symbol GRIL). A simple lookup of the Grill on Yahoo will give you all the info you need about your simple roadfood eatery.

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King

Well Mr. Smartypants, once again you are wrong. ALL the (5 Grill on the Alleys and 15 Daily Grills) are part of the same company, which in fact is NASDAQ listed (symbol GRIL). A simple lookup of the Grill on Yahoo will give you all the info you need about your simple roadfood eatery.

Once again I'm wrong??

Please tell me what else I've been wrong about so far. During the course of this thread- I think I've been right 99% of the time (and I'm just going by the 8 personal e-mails I've gotten so far about this thread) as well as the concise, logical and accurate responses I've give so far some of which I admit require some thought.

Using your logic, I guess that Teds in Buffalo, Grimaldis in Brooklyn,
Ginos, Edwards, Lou Manaltis and Giordanos in Chicago, Jakes Famous Crawfish in Portland, Skyline in Cincinnati, Jim's Steaks in Philly, Primanti's in Pittsburgh, oh and your beloved In and Out which serves that "only in LA specialty"- Burgers, are also corporate chains.

Oh, one more thing I was wrong about

I looked at Uno's home page, and they ARE affiliated with the original Pizzeria Uno's in Chicago.

I guess that's what happens when I listen to others on the forum who claim otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by wanderingjew

quote:

Originally posted by BBq King

Well Mr. Smartypants, once again you are wrong. ALL the (5 Grill on the Alleys and 15 Daily Grills) are part of the same company, which in fact is NASDAQ listed (symbol GRIL). A simple lookup of the Grill on Yahoo will give you all the info you need about your simple roadfood eatery.

Once again I'm wrong??

Please tell me what else I've been wrong about so far. During the course of this thread- I think I've been right 99% of the time (and I'm just going by the 8 personal e-mails I've gotten so far about this thread).

Using your logic, I guess that Teds in Buffalo, Grimaldis in Brooklyn,
Ginos, Edwards, Lou Manaltis and Giordanos in Chicago, Jakes Famous Crawfish in Portland, Skyline in Cincinnati, Jim's Steaks in Philly, Primanti's in Pittsburgh, oh and your beloved In and Out which serves that "only in LA specialty"- Burgers, are also corporate chains.

Well at least 3 are corporate chains. Jake's is the flagship of the 82 location McCormick & Schmidt chain; In&Out, which by the way is not my beloved Burger place, is a chain; Skyline is a chain.
Now for you edification I don't think that any of this is a bad thing. Chains can be good as evidanced by your love affair with The Grill's (no e) Cobb Salad or you listing a place like Jakes.
One last thing. I'd much rather eat a Bob's Big Boy with double avacodo and tomato than a In&Out any day of the week. That's real SoCal burger dining!

Actually, wanderingjew, I also think Cobb salad is SoCal Roadfood. I'm just trying to understand your Roadfood approach. I'd say pretty much everything you consider Roadfood, we do too. I agree with you 100% about price - expensive places can be Roadfood too.

But Sue and I surely go beyond your limits. Burgers in SoCal are Roadfood for us. As are burgers everywhere.

We use no rules at all when searching for Roadfood. If it feels like Roadfood, it is. That means, sometimes a chain makes it, and sometimes a place serving food out of its region makes it. Sometimes a place that serves food of no region at all makes it. We reviewed Food at Fishers Station near Rochester. It's a casual breakfast and lunch place, and they probably serve nothing that can't be found in towns across the country. Yet, for us, it was quintessential Roadfood. Why? It just feels like it to us. Some combination of being top quality, a locals-only restaurant with soul and personal quirks, and who knows what other sub-conscious factors influenced us.

We like regional food, and we like historical food, but they don't for us make up the total of what Roadfood is.

a good burger is a good burger is a good burger...whether it be found in New England, SoCal or Hawaii and deserves inclusion especially if it is served in an establishment that has character and charm in a "roadhouse" sort of way. i agree that if a gumbo shack is in the middle of a LA bayou and you're elbowing with the locals it can only enhance the experience, but that shouldn't exclude ALL gumbo being served outside LA for being unauthentic.

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Bilmes & Sue Boyle

Actually, wanderingjew, I also think Cobb salad is SoCal Roadfood. I'm just trying to understand your Roadfood approach. I'd say pretty much everything you consider Roadfood, we do too. I agree with you 100% about price - expensive places can be Roadfood too.

But Sue and I surely go beyond your limits. Burgers in SoCal are Roadfood for us. As are burgers everywhere.

We use no rules at all when searching for Roadfood. If it feels like Roadfood, it is. That means, sometimes a chain makes it, and sometimes a place serving food out of its region makes it. Sometimes a place that serves food of no region at all makes it. We reviewed Food at Fishers Station near Rochester. It's a casual breakfast and lunch place, and they probably serve nothing that can't be found in towns across the country. Yet, for us, it was quintessential Roadfood. Why? It just feels like it to us. Some combination of being top quality, a locals-only restaurant with soul and personal quirks, and who knows what other sub-conscious factors influenced us.

We like regional food, and we like historical food, but they don't for us make up the total of what Roadfood is.

I agree, burgers are roadfood. Every once in a while I need a good burger whether its local or out of town. Perfect example was the excellent burger at Tessaro's I enjoyed in Pittsburgh last fall.
I'm just saying that burgers (or a specifically good burger) are not confined to Southern California alone. Like you said- burgers are roadfood everywhere, and I even hope to try a chilisize when I visit LA next year. Be prepared for actual restaurant reviews (not a trip report) for all fish taco and burrito stands, casual teryaki and sushi joints, smoothie shops, and any burger place that serves a chili-size that I deem worthy......


Great Debate! I'm done

Those of whom who wish can continue.

It's been fun. Maybe we can bang heads again sometime. Just remember one thing.
---Better cows, better milk, better cheese!

Hope you had fun, wanderingjew. I did. I'm looking forward to your reviews. They should prove to be very valuable additions to the site, especially for a region I feel Roadfood has under-covered.

This really has been terrific fun reading all of this. As probably one of the few people who have met both Dale & Bruce in person multiple times, I can tell you I really admire the genuine passion both of them have for Roadfood.

I can also tell you that I wouldn't dream of visiting San Diego without eating at Hodad's. Dining in their VW bus is one of my ultimate Roadfood goals!

I actually enjoyed this forum,and the passion and wisdom of everyone involved.I learned some things,and truly appreciated the banter between all posters...

Are we done here? OK, wanderingjew, the next time you are in the Twin Cities we are going to seek out lutefisk together. I've never had it. OK?

The definition is not on the right or the left of this scale, is supposed to be everything between the two.

Paradox Philosophy:

What is white is black and what is black is white, what you see is not what I see.

Or in this discussions terms

What Dale's (WJ) idea of Roadfood, Is not what Bruce's idea of Roadfood is.

So we can agree to disagree

Is, CajunKing.. Rod Serling ?.

Anyway, I searched for an image of "great fish tacos" to celebrate wandering jew's thread.
I wasn't happy with any and when I found this one, I knew it fit.
It's not from the birthplace in Baja or the coming of age in Laguna Beach/Costa Mesa/Newport Beach
or PB (Pacific Beach) a neighborhood of a city that get's all the credit on MLB and NFL broadcasts
(San Diego), it's from out your way. So celebrate America. The Roadfood Fish Taco is everyone's.

Fish Tacos

From...
The Spotted Dog
30 North Ave NW
Atlanta, GA 30308
{404) 347-7337

Rubio's was reviewed glowingly in one of the Roadfood books. And the Rubio's place near my house had a flattering review by the Sterns on the wall. A problem in Portland, Oregon was thar fish tacos were a little exotic and fish wasn't a popular dish and people went to other places that featured more familiar dishes.

This thread wandered all over the place, but in regard to L.A. being a "burger town", I saw more restaurants with burgers in their names, or burgers mentioned on the outside of the building than I am used to seeing in south Florida or southern New York.  And that's not including the usual corporate franchised chain outlets, or In-N-Out.

The other thing I noticed was the number of places that mentioned pastrami in their names or signs.

MiamiDon


This thread wandered all over the place, but in regard to L.A. being a "burger town", I saw more restaurants with burgers in their names, or burgers mentioned on the outside of the building than I am used to seeing in south Florida or southern New York.  And that's not including the usual corporate franchised chain outlets, or In-N-Out.

The other thing I noticed was the number of places that mentioned pastrami in their names or signs.

And all I kept seeing were teriyaki- sushi and sush-teriyaki in every combination and form  imaginable.
I did see alot of burger-taco- teriyaki joints (serving all three) and taco-smoothie places... and alot of vegetarian raw food places.. along with the burger chains- In n Out and Fat Burger .Again, stuff i just don't see here in Rhode Island, or back in NYC for that matter.