Making Your Own Sodas

I`m wondering if anyone in this group is familiar with making their own sodas from extracts? I`m interested in something like www.chuckwagonsoda.com has to offer. Just not interested in spending 10K for something like this. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hey fried, I had a fried that used to make the A&W rootbeer for his restaurant. He used to tell me the profit was great...............It wouldn't be that hard once you found the recipe..............Bill 

I know someone who owns an A&W restaurant in Florida...but I do not believe that would help you very much.
 
Root beers and similar extracts tend to be tricky because it is a whole PITA of a process and flavor counts as well.  You could hit on it and be a winner blow it all up or it could taste like a soda you do not want to drink. Here is an example. Get your lab coat and goggles ready...
 
 http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/cheese/ROOTBEER_Jn0.htm
 
If I am going to make a homemade soda... I make mine Italian!
 
 

soda making is actually quite easy these days, as long as you're not trying to carbonate in the bottle. there are 2 ways to do it, depending on how much soda you need to serve:
 
 make 5-gallon batches and carbonate/serve from cornelius kegs. these are the kegs that used to be used for soda syrup before the bag-in-box systems came into use, they are available for very reasonable prices and are plentiful as these are used by homebrewers for kegging beer. pepsi and coke used to offer soda this way, they called it "pre mix" and also had pre mix dispensers just for them.
 
 the other way is to make your soda syrup in a 5-to-1 concentrate, put it in a corny keg and serve it using a standard 5-1 post mix soda dispensing system. if you already have a bag-in-box soda system, this is pretty easy to do.

marzsit


soda making is actually quite easy these days, as long as you're not trying to carbonate in the bottle. there are 2 ways to do it, depending on how much soda you need to serve:
 
 make 5-gallon batches and carbonate/serve from cornelius kegs. these are the kegs that used to be used for soda syrup before the bag-in-box systems came into use, they are available for very reasonable prices and are plentiful as these are used by homebrewers for kegging beer. pepsi and coke used to offer soda this way, they called it "pre mix" and also had pre mix dispensers just for them.
 
 the other way is to make your soda syrup in a 5-to-1 concentrate, put it in a corny keg and serve it using a standard 5-1 post mix soda dispensing system. if you already have a bag-in-box soda system, this is pretty easy to do.

Hey Marzsit, Your right the Pre mix system would be the way to go. The only thing I remember about those systems was the Ice plate had to be kept cold with Ice............The whole system could be bought real cheap. I think Pepsi still uses this systen for portable use.....Take care...Bill

To go to the extra trouble of implementing any soda system I am sure FT is interested in the total experience for an event. Cups are easy. Crafting an authentic somewhat unique Root Beer people gladly pay up to $5  in a unique working display (like barrels) at an event is not so easy. It is not just about making your own fountain mix...if in the market for the overall experience and $ that come along with it.
 
Unless you could track down an experieced Root Beer fair guy (there was an article back in the day about a retired corporate executive doing this) as a consultant. But he or any other would not give it away for free or might not be interested in being a consultant for anyone else at all.
 
Here is an article about root beer. You could focus on the crafted soda issue seperate from the unique delivery system. When the same person has both down....that is when they usually put it together to form the concept for $$$$...like $10,000.
 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/04/28/FD92580.DTL
 
 

If you are serious about doing this, I can tell you how. It takes very little money. Measure your investment in the hundreds, not thousands. I have explained the methods before, here on Roadfood, and am willing to do so again, but only if somebody is really listening.

You share it and I'll do it!

CC, you hit it on the head, I think the showmanship of this type of vending would create a great income. I`ve seen these type of soda wagons before, and surely its not rocket science, ever thou I can`t find my rocket science permit to get it al together. ha

Pete,  I`m all ears and very willing to take the time, effort, and financial investment needed to pursue this. CC and myself, and others I assume, would be very interested in this info.
Thank you.

All right, then. Let's get started.  I don't know squat from showmanship, but I can teach you how to make excellent root beer, with very little work and very little expense.
 I'm thinking your initial cost will be in the 400-800 dollar range.
The first think I would like for you to do is a bit of research.  I know a number of extract manufacturers, some better than others. Gather the names of some potential suppliers.
Next, don't buy them yet, but locate a few kegs that you can purchase. What you are looking for is a Hoff-Stevens 1/2 barrel, converted to an American Sankey tap. Anybody selling these will know what you mean. It's the old-style beer keg with a large filler bung in the side. They should be available for 15-40 bucks or so.

OK, ready for step 2.

Cool me too! I have been privy to the art of keg tapping going back to before I was in Kindergarten. My Grandfaher owned a tavern and back in the 70s Hoff-Stevens were still used. An education on pallets covering 2 inches of beer on the cellar floor is most likely the reason I did not become a beer drinker.

How much root beer do you guys expect to be making?  If you're selling 20 oz. cups, with a normal amount of ice, you're going to get in the neighborhood of 110 servings per 1/2 barrel.  Don't tell me what you would like to sell.  I want to know what you think you can sell.

This will be an overall concept to build into private catering packages for me. Up until now it has been my own syrups and some fashionable seltzer bottles. I have a contact that produces blood orange juice and I have created my own blood orange soda syrup as well as a few other unique soda syrups. Never did a root beer and I always avoid cola...because if it does not taste like coke or pepsi (for many) it usually equals a generic flavor....and I try to avoid that at all times.
 
Ths concept works for when there is a bar staffed by a bartender. I was thinking along the lines of an alternate set-up for automatic dispensing. I can easily grab a few  complete Cornelius units that I could use for smaller lighter displays and would try to create an attractive display to hide the innards. The logistics of the Hoff-Stevens would be very difficult due to the weight. Cornelius would be 5 gallons per unit each and a few back ups would do the trick.
 
I am just not sure if it would be best to make it in the Hoff-Stevens system and switch out to the Cornelius for dispensing or if it could be done straight into the Cornelius without taking anything away from the product or blowing up the joint in the process.
 
 

Cornelius kegs will work just as well. As you describe it, they would be easier to handle.

I think it would be a great idea doing a homemade soda along with a HD cart...this shows Coke but you could do anything...............Bill

                                              

It may work for private events catering to "money is not much of an object" or public showcase event where it will command up to $5 a pop.
 
Natural carbonation does not use co2 and it may be a very difficult sell to many HDs outside of private catering and events. Hoff-Stevens weigh over 150 lbs. when full. A homemade base would  start from scratch using the Cornelius system because you cannot use a post-mix within the natural (Hoff-Stevens) system. You can use a post mix with force carbonation (co2) but the post mix is in the $25.00 per gallon range  to yield 5 gallons of product  plus the cost of co2. It would cost a ton more to produce and if there is nothing really special about it...the purpose is defeated and it is a PITA  to control the flavor balance and psi if you do not have experience.
 
So I think very special bases in the Cornelius system would be the best bet with either system. One of my planned bases is dry grape and maybe if I tried the natural system I will end up with wine spritzers.Maybe keep that to myself for time in the lab.  
 
 

Hey CC, If you don't go out of your way to make your cart something special. Then there just may not be anything special about your cart..............People need to think outside the box and give people a reason to buy a POP. I don't see anything special about selling a can pop......................I would stop at a place that had Homemade Rootbeer and dogs in a second.........You take the easy way out. You bring up all the ways not to do something...........Bill

Hello...I am planning this and will do this and I break my behind growing the grapes as well. Easy way out....not me.
 
The natural system is costly and it will not pass most HD regulations because a sketchy  small question about alcohol in the process. The Cornelius system is a risk that many can try...but it is costly.

Take a look at Wild Bills Soda Pop Co..............
 
                                      

That is a soda company. This is a devoted concept that takes investment when there is a market or a venue that calls for it...and the price tag associated with it. An event or special party....yes. A street cart that struggles to command high prices for hot dogs...that is up to the HD and the operator. I listed the negatives and I am going to do it so there are positives. But make no mistake it will be well above the threshold of traditional street cart beverage costs  to produce or a PITA to pass by HD and lug around with you.
 
 
 

CC, No one ever said success comes easy........I'm just showing the concept not telling people to buy ito it..............This could be done and it doesn't have to be a big deal if it well thought out...........Where there's a will there's a way...........Your a smart lady you already know that...............Bill

More power to anyone who wants to go after it hard. That is what business is all about. I wanted to list the caveats because if it went unsaid it could easily be mistaken for something that easy and possible on a street cart. This would be a big core project for FT at events and it will be something that will take me many months to plan and hopefully execute...flawlessly. I can get co2 for almost nothing.
 
 It is not like lemonade or sweet tea. If I was not in the New York market where sometimes people go way out of their way to burn their sister-in-law with bells and whistles at their party...I would much rather  make sweet tea and lemonade...if possible.

CC, are you talking about using yeast to carbonate these drinks?

Poverty Pete


How much root beer do you guys expect to be making?  If you're selling 20 oz. cups, with a normal amount of ice, you're going to get in the neighborhood of 110 servings per 1/2 barrel.  Don't tell me what you would like to sell.  I want to know what you think you can sell.

Count me in for no less than 700 servings.

Poverty Pete


CC, are you talking about using yeast to carbonate these drinks?

From what I gather yeast is what creates the natural system of carbonation. I am not an aficionado of root beer and other how shall I say creamy frothy sodas. Never had one on a gun. In my case I would give root beer a shot from scratch and see how it turns out...but it seems to be a wide panel of potential flavoring elements and it might drive me mad before I hit the right formula. I will give it a go but will be focused on expanding the unique bases that I know will work...if hooked into a Cornelius with co2.
 
I have blood orange - maraschino cherry - key lime - meyer lemon - and will be working on experimenting with dry grape....using both methods for the dry grape. The grape are just about ready to roll.
 
Root beer will be interesting. I do not know how much of a market there will be because the  expanded food offerings that are being considered will most likely match better with the fruity flavors. Root beer floats would be nice...maybe. Never had one. Never even heard of spruce soda until last week. I could hit on the best root beer ever made and might not know it is that good. I will give it my best shot without driving myself crazy.

CC, your making me nervous.  Take a deep breath, relax, might consider a prozac. Its late, get some sleep!

 

 
Nervous shermvous. No idle hands...
 
 
 

The first problem is that as the yeast produces carbonation, it also produces alcohol. ATF has a whole set of rules that you might not want to be bound by.

It all depends on the percentage of alcohol in the product...but that gets further complicated when it is a homemade product because the is no guarantee of standardization in every batch as with a commercial packaged beverage. It could easily be subject to the same laws  standards  operational  procedures and classification of a maufacturing license/restricted brewery if there are no checks and balances for measuring alcohol content when there is alcohol content. If that was the case it would be subject to approval of the federal alcohol tobacco tax & trade bureau the dept. of environmental protection alcoholic beverage control etc. 

 

 

ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES

WHAT IS AN “ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE?”

Any liquid (or solid that can be converted into a liquid) that is fit to drink and has an alcoholic content of

more than ½ of 1 percent by volume is an alcoholic beverage and is subject to control by the Division of

A.B.C. A license or permit is required to make, distribute or sell any such alcoholic beverage. If a beverage

contains ½ of 1 percent or less alcohol, it is not controlled by the Alcoholic Beverage Control Act or A.B.C.

rules and regulations and may be sold without an alcoholic beverage license. (See “Non-alcoholic

Beverages.”)

Here's my point.  If your yeast produces enough CO2 to noticably carbonate your drink, the alcohol level will be much higher than 0.5%.  In addition, without regularly checking your yeast viability, you won't even be able to accurately guess the alcohol level, or volumes of CO2.  If you are selling this product, you are subject to ATF, regardless of where you might be producing it, be it factory or home.

How about http://www.sodastreamusa.com/catalog/2 I've never tried this, but it's on my list. When I get to it, I'll review it for all of you.

Poverty Pete


Here's my point.  If your yeast produces enough CO2 to noticably carbonate your drink, the alcohol level will be much higher than 0.5%.  In addition, without regularly checking your yeast viability, you won't even be able to accurately guess the alcohol level, or volumes of CO2.  If you are selling this product, you are subject to ATF, regardless of where you might be producing it, be it factory or home.

Yes exactly. If the normal percentage was maybe -250% of that zone that could put you over into the alcoholic beverage catagory...how off could you be? But with normal percentage being right there...you could never really know the difference between close or over at any given time with a fluid situation.
 
In my case I am licensed by the ABC  and 75% of my business would be lost as well as two restaurants losing the ability to serve alcohol if my license was suspened or revoked. I could imagine trying to explain that is was all over a keg of root beer.

If you used a hygrometer, you could probably measure within 1%, but I wouldn't bet my ABC license on it. On the other hand, if you carbonate with bottled CO2, your alcohol problem just vanishes...unless, of course, you have a different sort of alcoho.....never mind. 
Bottled CO2 will cost more, but it's very controllable.

Hey,  Mich, that website looks interesting,  but at the prices they're quoting, not really doable on a commercial scale.

I am going to experiment with the natural method for home use only. It sounds like fun and if "by accident" the alcohol level goes over...oh well I will just have to live with it.
 
I will use the Cornelius system with co2 for the catered parties. There is a void between packaged soda and open bar...and this will afford me an easier way to dispense exciting product (sans alcohol without having to have a permit for it) and charge closer to open bar than soda.
 

When doing your home version, remember to hook up some sort of pressure relief system.
  For catering purposes, you'll want to dial in your CO2 stabilization pressure somewhere around 13 psi, at 33-34 degrees. The colder the liquid, the more CO2 it will absorb.

Pete, have the directions stopped?

FriedTater


I`m wondering if anyone in this group is familiar with making their own sodas from extracts? I`m interested in something like www.chuckwagonsoda.com has to offer. Just not interested in spending 10K for something like this. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

My Aunt used to mskr ud Root Beer as a kid and was pretty good. She would make several gallon type jugs at a time although I don't remember how she did it. I do know if she was able to pull it off it must not have been to hard because she was not know for being a person who liked to cook, etc with things that had many details. I see here locally a commercial for a machine that makes drinks cheap but only like 2 glasses at a time, I'm sure you could either figure out a way to make more. I think it comes with 5 flavors.
c

Big Ugly Mich


How about http://www.sodastreamusa.com/catalog/2 I've never tried this, but it's on my list. When I get to it, I'll review it for all of you.

the sodastream unit works, but it's not very economical unless you buy an adapter hose and external c02 tank (sodastream's proprietary co2 tanks are tiny and expensive to refill..) and it wouldn't work in a commercial setting since it makes small quantities.

Tater,  have you decided on a brand of extract?

Poverty Pete


Tater,  have you decided on a brand of extract?

Pete, I`ve gotten 2 types of root beer extract, Zatarains and McCormicks.
 
Thanks
 

FriedTater

Poverty Pete


Tater,  have you decided on a brand of extract?

Pete, I`ve gotten 2 types of root beer extract, Zatarains and McCormicks.
 
Thanks
 

 Zatarains - a  classic, not bad... more licorice-like than i like...
 McCormicks - terrible... really meant to give a rootbeer-like taste to things like cake frosting, not good for making real root beer imho.....
 
 the old Hires extract was awesome, but is no more... :(
 
  i really like Gnome root beer extract.. :)   www.gnomesoda.com
 
  Fermentap also makes 2 types of very good root beer extract  http://fermentap.com/search/103453

I agree with Marzsit, although I haven't tried Gnome.  The proportions sound normal.
When I was making root beer for commercial production, I used a brand called Ozark, but don't know whethere it is still around.  It would also be advisable to have some birch beer or wintergreen extract to personalize your own flavor profile.

I think enhancing a good root beer extract base is a great idea. Even if someone really wanted to start from scratch...could not start at sassafras root or oil level because it contains safrol and banned by the FDA because of carcinogenic properties. Sassafras extract (sans safrole) is available. I love to experiement and produce  syrups but if I do play just for fun at home with root beer...I think I will just kick up a root beer concentrate. I would LOVE to make a maple cream soda. Don't know if it would be best to make it maple cream pre or post production from a cream soda base.
 
Hires Big H of Utah does offer a root beer extract but it is not related to "the" mainstream  Hires root beer...
 
http://www.hiresbigh.com/history.html
 
Hires Big H carries root beer extract as well as vanilla & cherry flavorings.
 
Gnome is interesting because there are 5 different flavors in the theme of root beer...
 
Draft style Root Beer
Old fashion Vanilla Cream
Spicy Ginger Beer
Autumn Red Birch
Crystal clear Cream
 
That would really open up a total package selection if you are doing a wagon.
 
Hires Big H & Gnome are in the same price range...$7.50-$8.50 to make a 5 gallon batch.
 
Much more expensive vs. Zatarain's  but a great deal of options to create a full line starting from extract level.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

actually, gnome's extract pouches contain twice as much extract, enough for 10 gallons so it's half the cost of hires big h...

Hires Big H is packaged as 4.25 oz. to yield 5 gallons.
 
Gnome says  4 oz. - 1 gallon sizes available. Many of the links to suppliers are dead but one link lists  it says...
 
4 oz packet, yields between 5 and 10 gallons of soda, depending on how strong you want the soda to taste.

 
Never made it by natural method  so I am not sure if there is a standard.
 
The Hires Big H ratio is greater but it just lists yield...without method. According to Gnome instructions it seems as though it may only take 1/2 of the quantity...using the natural method. The root beer directions for Gnome (natural method)  lists for 2.5 gallon yield using 1-2 oz. extract. The Cornelius method list 2-4 oz. per 5 gallon yield.
 
Since you tried it and you like it the flavor is best for 4 oz. to 10 gallons? What method do you use? Thanks!
  
  
  
 

i've made a 5 gallon batch of gnome using 5 pounds of cane sugar and 2 oz of extract and it had plenty of flavor, but i suppose if you used a different sweetener (beet sugar, corn syrup, etc) you might have to use more extract.. i've wanted to make a batch using splenda, but 5 pounds worth of splenda is pretty expensive around here.......

NOOOO....Splenda is NOT a 1:1 ratio to sugar. Splenda 600 times sweeter than sugar.

in the local supermarkets, splenda is only sold 2 ways: a box of packets with each packet equivalent to 2 teaspoons of sugar, or in a bag that is supposed to be the equivalent of 2 pounds of sugar and costs about $9. the bagged product is advertised as being made for cooking and baking, and obviously has fillers of some kind...
 
 the concentrated splenda that comes in packets isn't available in bulk packages.

Sorry never cooked or baked with Splenda...and only have had it in small concentrated doses. What about the yeast activation? Sugar...yes. Splenda...?

Sugar...yes. Splenda...not a chance.  Yeast requires fermentable sugars.   Of course, one could use Splenda as the primary sweetener, then add just enough sugar, honey, or other form of natural sweetener for the yeast to make bubbles.

yeast is only needed if you're going to bottle your soda. if you use kegs, then you can force carbonate instead, which greatly simplifies the process and eliminates the risk of over-carbonating. no risk of exploding bottles too :)

Oh...thought you were making it with the natural method. Don't mind me I am in winemaking mode.
 
Champagne yeast for the root beer with the natural method?
 
So the 2 oz. quantity of gnome is good with the Cornelius method. Got it.

Actually, you can force carbonate bottles as well.  I used to do it regularly when sending beers for competitions.

Did I miss the soda wagon or not Pete? I thought maybe you`d have instructions for us by now.