FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters

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Dr of BBQ
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FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 9:20 AM
NEW ORLEANS (AP) — Federal officials plan to ban sales of raw oysters harvested from the Gulf of Mexico unless the shellfish are treated to destroy potentially deadly bacteria — a requirement that opponents say could deprive diners of a delicacy cherished for generations.

The plan has also raised concern among oystermen that they could be pushed out of business.

The Gulf region supplies about two-thirds of U.S. oysters, and some people in the $500 million industry argue that the anti-bacterial procedures are too costly. They insist adequate measures are already being taken to battle germs, including increased refrigeration on oyster boats and warnings posted in restaurants.

About 15 people die each year in the United States from raw oysters infected with Vibrio vulnificus, which typically is found in warm coastal waters between April and October. Most of the deaths occur among people with weak immune systems caused by health problems like liver or kidney disease, cancer, diabetes, or AIDS.

"Seldom is the evidence on a food-safety problem and solution so unambiguous," Michael Taylor, a senior adviser at the Food and Drug Administration, told a shellfish conference in Manchester, N.H., earlier this month in announcing the policy change.

Some oyster sellers say the FDA rule smacks of government meddling. The sales ban would take effect in 2011 for oysters harvested in the Gulf during warm months.

"We have one man who's 97 years old, and he comes in here every week and gets his oyster fix, no matter what month it is," said Mark DeFelice, head chef at Pascal's Manale Restaurant in New Orleans. "There comes a time when we need to be responsible. Government doesn't need to be involved in this."

The anti-bacterial process treats oysters with a method similar to pasteurization, using mild heat, freezing temperatures, high pressure and low-dose gamma radiation.

But doing so "kills the taste, the texture," DeFelice said. "For our local connoisseurs, people who've grown up eating oysters all their lives, there's no comparison" between salty raw oysters and the treated kind.

A Gulf Coast oyster — or better still, a plate of a dozen oysters on the half-shell — is a delicacy savored for its salty, refreshing, slightly slimy taste. Some people add a drop of horseradish, lemon or hot sauce on top for extra zest.

Treated oysters are "not as bright, the texture seems different," said Donald Link, head chef and owner of the Herbsaint Bar and Restaurant in New Orleans.

"This is an area the government shouldn't meddle in," Link said. "What's next? They're going to tell us we can't eat our beef rare?"

Until the 1960s, raw oysters were rarely eaten in the summertime. (The old adage was never eat oysters in the months without an R in them.) But changes in harvest patterns and advances in refrigeration and post-harvest treatment have made the industry a year-round business. About three-fifths of the Gulf's oysters are harvested during the warm months.

The FDA is promoting a ban because high-risk groups are not heeding warnings about raw oysters, and millions of other people may not know they are vulnerable.

If federal officials require post-harvest treatment, they "will be ruining an industry that has been around for centuries," said Sal Sunseri, co-owner of P&J Oyster Co., a French Quarter oyster wholesaler.

"We've been doing this the same way since the 1920s," said his brother, Al Sunseri, as shuckers in rubber gloves worked their way through piles of raw oysters destined for oyster bars and restaurants. "We're located in the French Quarter. We're not going to get the permits we need to do post-harvest processing. We don't have the space for it."

In Plaquemines Parish, the Louisiana "boot" that juts into the Gulf south of New Orleans, 49-year-old oyster harvester Peter Vujnovich Jr. said the FDA was "totally out of its mind."

Croatian-Americans like him have been harvesting oysters for decades in the area's brackish bays and lakes. He said the ban added insult to injury after he spent tens of thousands of dollars upgrading his boats to meet recent refrigeration regulations.

The FDA contends treating oysters would not affect the taste and would save lives.

"Oysters that undergo post-harvest processing treatment will rarely pose a problem," Taylor said, "while those left untreated can have deadly consequences."

Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Related stories
From other L.A. sources

    * FDA: Gulf Of Mexico Oysters Unsafe|cbs2.com




http://www.latimes.com/ne...0,7728033.story?page=1

BillyB
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 10:32 AM
15 people die per year from eating Raw oysters from the Gulf
60 thousand people die from snake bits per year
1000 people die from Crocodiles per year

sounds like we should be kicking a little Croc and Snake Butt and leave the Oyster alone.

BuddyRoadhouse
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 11:23 AM
BillyB, I don't disagree with you about the gubmint sticking its nose in where it doesn't belong, but 60,000 deaths per year due to snake bites?  A thousand people being eaten by crocodiles?  Where are you getting those numbers?  Is that in this country or internationally?

If you're going to make your point against government intervention you would do well to stick to provable, traceable facts.  There are so many real arguments against FDA intervention, that this kind of ridiculous hyperbole just makes the government seem more reasonable.  Provide a source for those figures and I'll delete my post.  Otherwise you should delete your post and stay out of the argument until you can back up your position with reliable information.

Jack, for the record, this ol' leftie is in complete agreement with you on this subject.  According to the article, "Most of the deaths occur among people with weak immune systems caused by health problems like liver or kidney disease, cancer, diabetes, or AIDS."  Given those preexisting conditions, almost anything could bring about death.  Picking on a multi-million dollar industry
for the sake of 15 people per year who were overly susceptible anyway is absurd.

Buddy

BillyB
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 11:52 AM
Hey Buddy, I thought Missouri was the show me state...Go Figure Shark Bite and Shark Attack Causes, Treatment, and Prevention Information on eMedicineHealth.com...If you need more info contact them..............15 people a year that die from eating oysters is not enough to screw up the whole industry....................Have Restaurants post the hazards on the menu....................Pass the hot sauce......Bill

Dr of BBQ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 1:05 PM
this ol' leftie......yes but I wouldn't trade you for 3 righties. LOL

Michael Hoffman
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 1:50 PM
BillyB


Hey Buddy, I thought Missouri was the show me state...Go Figure Shark Bite and Shark Attack Causes, Treatment, and Prevention Information on eMedicineHealth.com...If you need more info contact them..............15 people a year that die from eating oysters is not enough to screw up the whole industry....................Have Restaurants post the hazards on the menu....................Pass the hot sauce......Bill

According to your Shark Bite cite, and the search following getting there, it seems your source claims 45,000 snakebites each year in the United States, with just 8,000 of them by venomous snakes, and just eight or ten deaths as a result of those venomous snake bites.
 
Again, according to your source, "it is estimated that 5 million snakebites occur worldwide each year, causing about 125,000 deaths."
 
So, anyway you slice it, it appears that you looked this stuff up affter you made your claim.


BillyB
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 2:15 PM
Hey Mike, an old boy from Bridgeport questions a East side boy...What are you and Buddy the Post police ??????????????? ..............P.S 1500 people die from Tigers,Lions and Leopards.....15 from Oysters  GGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
<message edited by BillyB on Wed, 10/28/09 2:34 PM>

Michael Hoffman
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 2:20 PM
I don't know about anyone named Mike, but I'm from New Haven.

divefl
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 2:47 PM
Billy, US vs US figures only. Not US vs the planet. There is no way 1500 die in the US from tigers, lions, and leopards.

I also think 15 in US is not high unless you know one of the 15.  Everyone signs waivers and keeps the oysters flavorful.

Curbside Grill
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 3:20 PM
This banning gulf oysters is not new. On again off again. Old stuff.
Been in Fl since the 60's, till I moved friends always bought me a bushel for my B'day. Right off the docks in Tampa. Again not new.
<message edited by Curbside Grill on Wed, 10/28/09 3:24 PM>

Curbside Grill
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 4:04 PM
Now how close the ground water at the Hanford Site would be ground breaking. Use to go by there at least 4 times a year and guns trained on us.
Scary. but on our way to Sunnyside,WA. The NW fisheries ruined.
Water poluted. worse than the Gulf ever thought
NO drinking water on the west coast
Gov't at work  Last report I saw 0.5 miles to river.
 
<message edited by Curbside Grill on Wed, 10/28/09 4:19 PM>

BillyB
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 4:32 PM
Hey Mike, Good numbers of Salmon coming up the Columbia. This is where they made the Plutonium for the Fat Man...............Will see if Buddy needs more info on this one.............Bill

Curbside Grill
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 4:40 PM
People only worried about todays news.
Past is going to bite us in the Paputdie.
Biggest problem is the Hanford Site. Get real people.
I will eat a gulf BiValve anyday.
Boiled a horseshoe for three days, not fit to eat.

Michael Hoffman
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 5:13 PM
BillyB


Hey Mike, Good numbers of Salmon coming up the Columbia. This is where they made the Plutonium for the Fat Man...............Will see if Buddy needs more info on this one.............Bill


I'll try to explain something in such a way as to make it easy even for you to understand. My name is Michael. I do not know anyone named Mike.
 
And the plutonium to which you refer came from the Hanford site, a long way from where folks, including me, fish for salmon on the Columbia.

MilwFoodlovers
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 5:18 PM
If they're safe, why would there be a need for a waiver? I'm wonder if restaurants during the non-R months could be sued if they made a customer sick, would still sell raw untreated oysters?  Me, I think they taste bad during those months so I skip eating them then. I don't need Unky Sam to make that choice for me.

waydeg
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 6:45 PM
Here's the data from the FDA

On October 17, 2009, FDA announced its intention to inform seafood producers of the need to take measures that will largely eliminate the risk of death and disease caused by Vibrio vulnificus (Vv) infection from consumption of raw molluscan shellfish (e.g., oysters and clams). The announcement was made at the biennial meeting of the Interstate Shellfish Sanitation Conference (ISSC) in Manchester, New Hampshire. The ISSC includes representatives of the shellfish industry as well as representatives of the FDA and other government agencies.  

What is Vibrio vulnificus?
Vibrio vulnificus is a naturally occurring bacterium in the same family as those that cause cholera. Vv can be found in warm coastal waters, especially the Gulf of Mexico between the months of April and October. The level of Vv in Gulf of Mexico oysters greatly increases during warm weather months, resulting in the annual occurrence of illnesses in consumers who eat oysters raw. V. vulnificus can infect the bloodstream, causing a severe and life-threatening illness characterized by fever and chills, decreased blood pressure (septic shock), and blistering skin lesions. V. vulnificus bloodstream infections are fatal about 50% of the time. Generally, 15 deaths per year result from Vv infection associated with the consumption of raw Gulf Coast oysters. At greatest risk are individuals whose immune systems have been compromised or have certain health conditions, such as: chronic alcohol abuse; liver, stomach, or blood disorders; cancer; AIDS; diabetes; or kidney disease. Many of these individuals do not know that they are predisposed to V. vulnificus infection.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEv../Speeches/ucm187014.htm



I think government (and our tax dollars) would be better served looking at other issues that have a significantly larger impact on our public health.
...and I'm still gonna eat my Gulf oysters in months with "Rs" in 'em.



<message edited by waydeg on Wed, 10/28/09 6:47 PM>

PopsDogHouse
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 7:12 PM
So here is the way things look to me:
If you eat chicken, you may be at risk of salmonella poisoning.
Eating red meat can cause cancer and heart trouble.
Fish may contain mercury.
Oysters may be infected with vibrio vulnificus.
Eating shellfish causes you to ingest the toxins that they clean out of the water.
Pork contains parasites that aren’t killed by cooking, leading to Cirrhosis.
Drinking alcohol may lead to alcoholism, gambling addiction, sexual addiction, violence, oh yeah, and Cirrhosis.
Hot dogs contain Sodium Nitrite which is a carcinogen.
Vegetables need to be watched carefully because they are protected in the field with pesticides.
Smoking causes cancer.
 
Maybe we should just allow restaurants to serve bread and water?  Nah, we can’t do that.  They wouldn’t survive because nowadays everybody is either wheat or gluten intolerant.  And of course, water contains chlorine and fluoride (both have their own issues).  Well, we could serve bottled water.  Nope, can’t have the plastic in the landfills.  Ok, let’s close the restaurants; put millions out of work, and stay locked up in the house eating nuts and berries.  Nope!  If you do that, you have to be concerned with indoor air pollution, lack of vitamin D, and adult onset asthma. 
 
How about this:  Take personal responsibility!  And for those that feel they need big brother to save them from themselves: Move somewhere else! Leave those alone who want to enjoy themselves during this one life we’ve been given.

BillyB
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 9:34 PM
Michael Hoffman


BillyB


Hey Mike, Good numbers of Salmon coming up the Columbia. This is where they made the Plutonium for the Fat Man...............Will see if Buddy needs more info on this one.............Bill


I'll try to explain something in such a way as to make it easy even for you to understand. My name is Michael. I do not know anyone named Mike.
 
And the plutonium to which you refer came from the Hanford site, a long way from where folks, including me, fish for salmon on the Columbia.


Hey Michael, this could be something you learn on your way back from knowing everything.
Features - Hanford Reach...................Read it nice and slowwwwwwwwwwwwww .....William

SHE,BlackQueen
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 10/28/09 10:25 PM
Yall are certainly entertaining! Me, I'm justa Jr. Burger who loves raw oysters & doesn't want my personal choice to consume them decided for me by Big Brother. It is tragic that 15 people die every year from eating them, & as was opined in a previous post it matters to those 15 people who died & the people who loved them, but that is an awfully small number all things considered & in comparison to other hazards. Here in DullAss, every restaurant that I've been to that serves them has the health disclaimer on the menu. Like WD, I *try* to control myself in the non-R months & indulge in the R. But I occasionally throw caution to the wind & declare it to be "a Good Day to Die!" I was heartened by CG's entry that this has come up before & that gives me hope that I will still be able to make my own decisions for my own self. & I really enjoyed PDH's overview of ALL the hazards different choices can lead to. As I smoke a cigarette (American Spirit Periques All Natural and GOOD FOR YOU! Hahahaaa!) & drink a nice glass of Pinot Noir & get ready to eat a beautiful bloody rare filet. *sigh* It could only be improved with the addition of a dozen cold Gulf oysters & a good dollop of horseradish & blistery hot sauce. Both of which, I fervently believe, can kill deadly bacteria... 
CiaoMeOwwww! SBQ 

BuddyRoadhouse
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 10/29/09 12:34 AM
BillyB, first off, Missouri is the "Show Me State", and although I am from Chicago, my lovely bride is from Kansas City, MO.  After 30 years of marriage and countless visits throughout the state of Missouri, I have earned honorary status as a "Show Me" guy.

It is obvious you're playing fast and loose with the facts for your own personal amusement.  You throw out outrageous claims regarding snake bite deaths and crocodile attacks and you defend them with a shark bite link.  Even if the facts are buried somewhere in there, my attitude is, if you don't care enough to provide a direct link to defend your statements, I don't care enough to dig through the extraneous garbage to find them.  If you're going to spout out a load of hyperbolic absurdity it is your responsibility to back it up.  It is not my responsibility to cover your butt when you embarrass yourself in public.

Secondly, there is only one person on Roadfood who is allowed to call Michael Hoffman "Mike" (actually, "Mikey"), and that is me.  Of course I refer to him with that sobriquet with the full knowledge that he will call me "Bubby", the Yiddish word for "grandmother".  I understand this arrangement and I accept it.  I have only called him Mikey once and have found no need to do so since.

Thirdly, if you're going to join the grown-ups in a real discussion concerning real issues, you should spend more time cleaning up your grammar, spelling, and overall logic before hitting the "Post Message" button.  You might find people taking you a bit more seriously if you take the time and make the effort to make sense and sound reasonable.

This will be my one and only response to anything else you might have to say on this or any other thread.  Your behavior here has proven just how much value and worth we can put in your comments.

Buddy

Foodbme
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 10/29/09 12:40 AM
ALL OF YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!
IT'S NOT ABOUT 15 PEOPLE DIEING FROM EATING OYSTERS!
IT'S ABOUT CREATING HUNDREDS OF JOBS IN THE FDA BUREAUCRACY TO POLICE THE STUPID DECISION!

Curbside Grill
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 10/29/09 12:48 AM
Michael Hoffman


BillyB


Hey Mike, Good numbers of Salmon coming up the Columbia. This is where they made the Plutonium for the Fat Man...............Will see if Buddy needs more info on this one.............Bill


I'll try to explain something in such a way as to make it easy even for you to understand. My name is Michael. I do not know anyone named Mike.
 
And the plutonium to which you refer came from the Hanford site, a long way from where folks, including me, fish for salmon on the Columbia.

 
First off sorry to steal the thread Jack. But if you follow Weather and tides the gulf in some areas do not clean themselves as other bodies of water. The watersheds to this area is what pollutes. Will not go there. but if other people living close by they know what I am talking about. This area is on again off again.
 
I believe when Billy B said mike or Mikey means me. 
Some call me Mike Some call me Mikey.
Don't want to throwout the derivatives, bleaps horns and Administrators deleting.

<message edited by Curbside Grill on Thu, 10/29/09 12:57 AM>

Curbside Grill
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 10/29/09 12:56 AM
Foodbme


ALL OF YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!
IT'S NOT ABOUT 15 PEOPLE DIEING FROM EATING OYSTERS!
IT'S ABOUT CREATING HUNDREDS OF JOBS IN THE FDA BUREAUCRACY TO POLICE THE STUPID DECISION!

 
Do not go political, will lock thread.
Bacterial count in the area is what shuts down the fishing grounds.
Raw,baked,grilled, we have enjoyed all options.
Now FUGU have to try only in Springfield. 
<message edited by Curbside Grill on Thu, 10/29/09 1:03 AM>

Michael Hoffman
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 10/29/09 2:42 AM
BillyB


Michael Hoffman


BillyB


Hey Mike, Good numbers of Salmon coming up the Columbia. This is where they made the Plutonium for the Fat Man...............Will see if Buddy needs more info on this one.............Bill


I'll try to explain something in such a way as to make it easy even for you to understand. My name is Michael. I do not know anyone named Mike.
 
And the plutonium to which you refer came from the Hanford site, a long way from where folks, including me, fish for salmon on the Columbia.


Hey Michael, this could be something you learn on your way back from knowing everything.
Features - Hanford Reach...................Read it nice and slowwwwwwwwwwwwww .....William


I'm familiar with that section. I've fished it. Obviously, you had to spend a lot of time looking for a cite. It falls flat, as you clearly  don't have a clue as to what it's about.
 
Have a nice day.

CajunKing
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 11/4/09 5:43 PM
generally 15 people each year die as a result of eating oysters.....

Heck

In 2005 there were over 44,000 alcohol related fatalities and over 100,000 US alcohol related deaths.

and yet the gubmint is not jumping to shut down the alcohol industry


I love oysters from the gulf, they can ban them when they pry the oyster fork and hot sauce from my cold dead hands

Time for us to stand up and protest!!!



Foodbme
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 11/4/09 11:07 PM
CajunKing


generally 15 people each year die as a result of eating oysters.....

Heck

In 2005 there were over 44,000 alcohol related fatalities and over 100,000 US alcohol related deaths.

and yet the gubmint is not jumping to shut down the alcohol industry


I love oysters from the gulf, they can ban them when they pry the oyster fork and hot sauce from my cold dead hands

Time for us to stand up and protest!!!

 
ALL OF YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!
IT'S NOT ABOUT 15 PEOPLE DIEING FROM EATING OYSTERS!

IT'S ABOUT CREATING HUNDREDS OF JOBS IN THE FDA BUREAUCRACY TO POLICE THE STUPID DECISION!
 
AND  I'm not "Getting Political".  That's the Facts Jack! Every NEW Federal regulation results in 10 to HUNDREDS even THOUSANDS of Jobs to Enforce the NEW Regulation. People who get these jobs vote for the Candidates who support creating more of these NEW  Regulations. Amerca is Doomed!

Bruce Bilmes and Susan Boyle
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Wed, 11/4/09 11:28 PM
Why do some people find it so hard to obey Roadfood.com's simple posting rules?
<message edited by PopsDogHouse on Fri, 11/6/09 6:33 AM>

Dr of BBQ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:05 AM
Oh for Gods sake Bruce you never post unless you can bang someone for what you call the "lunatic fringe". You need to relax and stop playing the political cop crap. It's an interesting discussion and it was fine until you jumped in.
JACK!

Bruce Bilmes and Susan Boyle
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:15 AM
No, it was fine until Foodbme violated the posting rules.  And I wouldn't have to play "political cop" if those who were charged with doing so enforced the rules.

Dr of BBQ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:33 AM
Oh for gods sake why cry foul over little or nothing. I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to read a post if it upset you so much.

I never see a post from you about good food, or  bad food. You pop up every time someone hits on government regulation or interference from the current government into private business.

By now your old enough to know that small business owners have had a bone to pick with every administration that has held office for the last 30 years.

We are by nature independent, and therefore not liking the government sticking it's nose into our affairs nor costing us more money in any way. It's just common sense.

But then again you have never chosen to risk your house, car, and future on a business venture. Some of us have and we feel strongly about goverment interfearance into our personal and business lives.

So just relax and laugh at those of us that work our ass off 7 days a week for all most the entire year and pay taxes that support those that don't or won't.

With all due respect
Jack

Bruce Bilmes and Susan Boyle
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:56 AM
I have nothing but respect for people who run their own businesses.  While I have never done so personally, members of my immediate family have.  There are plenty of small business owners everywhere on the political spectrum.  While it seems that only those on the right choose to periodically violate the Roadfood posting rules, when they go ahead and do so they should not get all bent out of shape when those views are challenged.

Why do I bother popping up when political posting rules are violated?  Because I believe it's bad for the site when it's used as a platform for a political point of view.  That's why political discussions are banned. 

I post from time to time about food subjects (I posted about cooking bacon in the oven a couple of days ago), but my role here as writer/restaurant reviewer/editor takes up most of the time I have to devote to the site.  And if I feel I have something interesting to say it's more likely to end up on the Roadfood Digest or a restaurant review than in the Forums.

Born in OKC
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 7:01 AM
I am 71 and counting and, being a Type 2 diabetic, a member of at least one risk group.  When I have the opportunity I shall continue to visit the sushi bar and the raw bar.  I worked for a very highly regulated industry for more than fifty years and agree as a regards the match between additional rule making and the hiring of more government inspectors.  
 
I don't believe that there has never been any  requirement that the government inspector be reasonable or intelligent.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:35 PM
Although I do question the logic of banning totally a product that causes, at most, 15 deaths a year in the US while pretty well ignoring many other products which cause far more deaths, I find it difficult to understand why some people are getting all upset over the possibility of the FDA hiring more inspectors. 
 
As evidenced by the number of major recalls over the last few years due to the fact that the food industry was not inspected often enough and/or thoroughly enough to catch potential problems, I would say the FDA (and the FSIS) need many more inspectors, just so a single inspector won't have thousands of locations to inspect in a single year. 
 
(Since I am the person who has posted all the food recalls on Roadfood for quite a while and has followed the major outbreaks in detail of Salmonella and E. coli from start to finish during that tume, I feel I am pretty well qualified to come to this conclusion.  And no, I don't work now and never have worked for any branch or any level of the government.)

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 12:57 PM
There is more to the story beyond death. Renal failure and hepatitis are conditions which result when focus is simply on keeping say on an individual basis without safety regulations. These are risks many will say they are willing to take...but being on dialysis and living with hepatitis are serious consequences that most would not wish on their worst enemy never mind themselves.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 7:50 PM
Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


I have nothing but respect for people who run their own businesses.  While I have never done so personally, members of my immediate family have.  There are plenty of small business owners everywhere on the political spectrum.  While it seems that only those on the right choose to periodically violate the Roadfood posting rules, when they go ahead and do so they should not get all bent out of shape when those views are challenged.

Why do I bother popping up when political posting rules are violated?  Because I believe it's bad for the site when it's used as a platform for a political point of view.  That's why political discussions are banned. 

I post from time to time about food subjects (I posted about cooking bacon in the oven a couple of days ago), but my role here as writer/restaurant reviewer/editor takes up most of the time I have to devote to the site.  And if I feel I have something interesting to say it's more likely to end up on the Roadfood Digest or a restaurant review than in the Forums.

Bruce,
Government regulation and proposed regulation as it relates to the food industry is very relevant in this forum.  I moderate the forum in a way that I beleive promotes growth.  These issues are discussed in other restaurant professional forums on the internet.  My opinion is that if it doesn't get out of control, I would much rather have the issues discussed here than on some other forum on another site. And it usually doesn't get out of control until you show up.  Right or wrong, that's the way it is.  If you have a problem with it, you know who to talk to.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 10:35 PM
PopsDogHouse
it usually doesn't get out of control until you show up.

That's because only one side is presented until I show up!  Sure, everything seems hunky-dory when everyone piles on with the same opinions.  You only seem to have a problem when someone presents an opposing view.
 
Why is it that we have set up rules for the good of this website, but you seem to think that you, and only you, can choose to ignore those rules on "your" forum?  It's a disgrace.


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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:06 PM
Bruce, with all due respect, since Steve became the moderator on this forum we have made giant strides in what I think most would say are the right direction.

This is in my mind the most interesting food forum on the internet, and to smother it would be a terrible mistake.

You get your licks in but like many liberals you don't want the other side discussed, and that's a shame.

Why not let both sides air their thoughts and let everyone that reads the post  make up their respective mind. That's the American way.

Sure some ruffled feathers are going to come about from time to time but in the long run things will work out.

Jack


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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:28 PM
PopsDogHouse


So here is the way things look to me:
If you eat chicken, you may be at risk of salmonella poisoning.
Eating red meat can cause cancer and heart trouble.
Fish may contain mercury.
Oysters may be infected with vibrio vulnificus.
Eating shellfish causes you to ingest the toxins that they clean out of the water.
Pork contains parasites that aren’t killed by cooking, leading to Cirrhosis.
Drinking alcohol may lead to alcoholism, gambling addiction, sexual addiction, violence, oh yeah, and Cirrhosis.
Hot dogs contain Sodium Nitrite which is a carcinogen.
Vegetables need to be watched carefully because they are protected in the field with pesticides.
Smoking causes cancer.
 
Maybe we should just allow restaurants to serve bread and water?  Nah, we can’t do that.  They wouldn’t survive because nowadays everybody is either wheat or gluten intolerant.  And of course, water contains chlorine and fluoride (both have their own issues).  Well, we could serve bottled water.  Nope, can’t have the plastic in the landfills.  Ok, let’s close the restaurants; put millions out of work, and stay locked up in the house eating nuts and berries.  Nope!  If you do that, you have to be concerned with indoor air pollution, lack of vitamin D, and adult onset asthma. 
 
How about this:  Take personal responsibility!  And for those that feel they need big brother to save them from themselves: Move somewhere else! Leave those alone who want to enjoy themselves during this one life we’ve been given.


This one sums it up better than I ever could have said it myself.  Thank you Pops.  Why is that everybody expects the government to take care of them when it comes to every little thing in life?  If you have issues with eating raw oysters, don't do it!  Its that simple.  I could go on and on but people who expect the government to wipe their a**es for them will just argue with me. 

By the way, I just hit the Indian Pass Raw Bar in Apalachicola FLA right on the gulf a week and a half ago.  I downed a couple of dozen of my beloved beauties....I walked away and am still walking now.

Yes, I have gotten sick from things I have eaten in the past but it had nothing to do with government regulations or policy and the government never would have saved me.  Hey, there are inherent risks to every thing you do in life. Driving a car, flying in a plane, living where there are mudslides, huuricanes, tornados, undercooked raw food at cookouts such as eating mayonnaise potato salad that sat out in the sun etc etc.....  I am an ironman triathlete.  Should I sue the government if I have a heart attack due to the sausage pasta I carb loaded on before a race?  What about the nitrates in that pasta?  Have we become a nation of mambie pambies?  So whats next?  Do we shut down all the wonderful food cart vendors that post on this site because I run the risk of a heart attack?  Come on people!!!

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:30 PM
Dr of BBQ

Why not let both sides air their thoughts and let everyone that reads the post  make up their respective mind.

Because we've been down that road already, and we've determined that it is counterproductive to the mission of Roadfood.com.  The matter has already been settled.  It's only PopsDogHouse that seems to think it isn't.

Perhaps if the Restaurant Professionals Forum was a stand-alone website it would be able to operate differently.  But for now, at least, it operates as part of Roadfood.com.  Current topics show up on our front page for all to see, and all are welcomed to participate in the discussions, not just restaurant professionals.  And what happens on this forum reflects on Roadfood.com as a whole.  There can't be one set of rules for you guys and another set for the rest of the site.

I'm not saying that the subject of raw Gulf oysters isn't a worthy topic for discussion.  It is, and many productive posts were made on the subject.  But then someone decided to use the subject as a springboard to go on an unrelated rant (USING ALL CAPS) about the government and taxes (once again for the umpteenth time).  That was counterproductive and argumentative and detracted from the discussion.  And if you permit that then you have to permit rants from the other side too.  Everything devolves from there.


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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:46 PM
Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


Dr of BBQ

Why not let both sides air their thoughts and let everyone that reads the post  make up their respective mind.

Because we've been down that road already, and we've determined that it is counterproductive to the mission of Roadfood.com.  The matter has already been settled.  It's only PopsDogHouse that seems to think it isn't.

Perhaps if the Restaurant Professionals Forum was a stand-alone website it would be able to operate differently.  But for now, at least, it operates as part of Roadfood.com.  Current topics show up on our front page for all to see, and all are welcomed to participate in the discussions, not just restaurant professionals.  And what happens on this forum reflects on Roadfood.com as a whole.  There can't be one set of rules for you guys and another set for the rest of the site.

I'm not saying that the subject of raw Gulf oysters isn't a worthy topic for discussion.  It is, and many productive posts were made on the subject.  But then someone decided to use the subject as a springboard to go on an unrelated rant (USING ALL CAPS) about the government and taxes (once again for the umpteenth time).  That was counterproductive and argumentative and detracted from the discussion.  And if you permit that then you have to permit rants from the other side too.  Everything devolves from there.


How is asking the government to stay out of peoples lives considered political?  I did not see anyone mention any sort of political party or any sort of affiliation.  Please enlighten me.

Dr of BBQ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:51 PM
Well Bruce there is nothing going to incite a reaction faster than name calling, and no one called anyone names until you got involved.

Your post as follows:
"Why does the lunatic fringe find it so hard to obey Roadfood.com's simple posting rules?

Bruce Bilmes and Susan Boyle
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:52 PM
Politics does not only relate to Democrats and Republicans and political parties.

Dr of BBQ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Thu, 11/5/09 11:58 PM
What is that supposed to mean? What are the parameters of a political discussion?

Is it just any time you cry foul ball? LMAO
<message edited by Dr of BBQ on Fri, 11/6/09 12:03 AM>

mar52
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 1:23 AM
Bruce, that was crossing the line.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 2:20 AM
Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


PopsDogHouse
it usually doesn't get out of control until you show up.

That's because only one side is presented until I show up!  Sure, everything seems hunky-dory when everyone piles on with the same opinions.  You only seem to have a problem when someone presents an opposing view.
 
Why is it that we have set up rules for the good of this website, but you seem to think that you, and only you, can choose to ignore those rules on "your" forum?  It's a disgrace.

 
 
 
Bruce & Sue,
 
You don't seem to get it. Many THINKING Americans are outraged at the level of Government control of their lives and rthe Waste of their money
. They're outraged at the COST of government control and it's related exenses! They're outraged with the fact that they can't control the expansion of and the COST of Government Control.
 
In this case, If the  FDA creates a " Dept of Oyster Safety" and creates 20 new jobs with an Average salary of $50,000.00, That's $1,000,000.00 Annually--Add 30% for benefits, that's $30,000.00. Then we need to equip their offices with Desks, Chairs, other Amenities like a Lunch Room,  Computers, Phones, Copy Machines, Etc. Admin Staff and their benefits,--------------Pretty soon we're talking serious money!!! Maybe $10,000,000.00 ANNUALLY!!!!!! 
Now you can argue that spending $10 MILLON DOLLARS/ PER YEAR +   ( Because once a piece of the Bureauracy is put in place, it NEVER, EVER goes away!) is worth saving a couple lives a year.
 
 I SUBMIT-- that $10 Million could be better spent on other projects with a HIGHER RETURN VALUE like Cancer Research or other projects that affect more than 15 people a year!
<message edited by Foodbme on Fri, 11/6/09 2:25 AM>

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 6:52 AM
Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


PopsDogHouse
it usually doesn't get out of control until you show up.

That's because only one side is presented until I show up!  Sure, everything seems hunky-dory when everyone piles on with the same opinions.  You only seem to have a problem when someone presents an opposing view.
 
Why is it that we have set up rules for the good of this website, but you seem to think that you, and only you, can choose to ignore those rules on "your" forum?  It's a disgrace.

 
You don't present an opposing point of view Bruce. You don't have anything of value to contribute here.  You just come over and cry foul.  This isn't the Miscellaneous forum, and you don't see political discussion here just for the sake of political discussion.  I delete that crap.  But, you do see dialogue from time to time about government regulation and its impact on the food industry.  If good, relevant discussion is censored here, people will leave for a more open venue.  I am not referring to those who want to discuss politics.  I'm referring to those who want to discuss business.  And I can promise you that government involvement in business is a big issue for anyone in business.  And everyone here is not of the same opinion.  However, because most of these folks are entrepreneurs, you will find that many, not all, would probably hold to the belief system of a rugged individualist. 
 
I'm sorry that you find me and/or the forum to be a disgrace.  Does this mean you'll go away now?

CCinNJ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 8:12 AM
Ok so there cannot be cherrypicking when it comes to these matters. The system had flaws...like all systems. With no system the focus will be square on the source of any tainted products served....and without a system there is no going to the root...it will go to the restaurants serving the tainted food. No investigaton of the peanut factory slaughterhouse etc. Now you are named in countless lawsuits as the defendant. You got it from this source that source handled it properly and there are issues without any way of you knowing. 
 
This is what happens when a restaurant is the focus...
 
 http://www.nrn.com/breakingNews.aspx?menu_id=1368&id=373782
 
Here is a portion of the article...
 
  "Until the 1960s, raw oysters were rarely eaten in the summertime. (The old adage was never eat oysters in the months without an R in them.) But changes in harvest patterns and advances in refrigeration and post-harvest treatment have made the industry a year-round business. About three-fifths of the Gulf's oysters are harvested during the warm months."
 
Maybe the advances are just not enough and this is the outcome of turning the industry into a year-round business. Something it was not for generations before the 60s.
<message edited by CCinNJ on Fri, 11/6/09 8:22 AM>

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 9:18 AM
CC-If the restaurant in the article was using a private, unapproved well that was tainted, they should be the focus.

And concerning the advances in technology not being enough, maybe they aren't.  Personally, I can't make that leap.  I don't believe that 15 deaths annually that occur in an "at risk" population indicates a systemic problem with technology.  While I certainly don't want to see anyone lose their life, especially from food, there are tens of thousands of deaths attributed to foodborne illness and disease.  The government can double or triple their payroll, and we'll have another problem.  They can't protect us from everything.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 9:37 AM
PopsDogHouse

You don't present an opposing point of view Bruce. You don't have anything of value to contribute here.  You just come over and cry foul.  This isn't the Miscellaneous forum, and you don't see political discussion here just for the sake of political discussion.  I delete that crap.  But, you do see dialogue from time to time about government regulation and its impact on the food industry.  If good, relevant discussion is censored here, people will leave for a more open venue.  I am not referring to those who want to discuss politics.  I'm referring to those who want to discuss business.  And I can promise you that government involvement in business is a big issue for anyone in business.  And everyone here is not of the same opinion.  However, because most of these folks are entrepreneurs, you will find that many, not all, would probably hold to the belief system of a rugged individualist. 
 
I'm sorry that you find me and/or the forum to be a disgrace.  Does this mean you'll go away now?

You can rationalize it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that this board is a part of Roadfood.  We have rules here.  You think you can make your own rules.




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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 9:38 AM
Who approves the well? I am sure there are people somewhere screaming "leave my well alone...my Grandpa and his Grandpa..."
 
Medical advancement means less people may die...but more people get really sick (and it does not take much).  If this was myself or one of my children on dialysis three times a week for life...and I assume nobody would say oh well such is life at that point.
 
Going against that old adage means people feel "safe" to eat the oysters during the warmer months....but I bet there are also those who break those rules constantly...intentionally or not. Then it is like the Girl Scouts selling hot dogs in front of Walmart or a vendor with a crockpot when you are following the rules. Go get those little girls...and these little girls and these little girls!!! At some point the focus on little girl chasing prompts a response that effects those that do follow the rules to the letter. But the oyster is already out of the shell because people feel safe to eat oysters in June! Then  the other loud voices screaming where was the govt. when they hear the latest news story about an outbreak of illness from this or that. Then back to the voices screaming how people qualify straight for Medicare when they go on dialysis no matter what...and that treatment costs thousands of dollars in taxpayer money a week per patient...for life.   
 
<message edited by CCinNJ on Fri, 11/6/09 10:05 AM>

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 10:04 AM
CCinNJ


Who approves the well? I am sure there are people somewhere screaming "leave my well alone...my Grandpa and his Grandpa..." 
  
 

 
I can't speak for all areas, only mine.  If you are going to use a well as your water source in a food service establishment, it has to be tested and approved by the Dept. of Environmental Services.  The government tests my well water.  I take it to them once a year.  I have no problem with that.  Now, let them try to come put a meter on it so that they can tax me on my water usage, and that will be a different story.
 
I think most people who eat oysters know the risks and choose to eat them anyway.  It's just like people who smoke, drink, skydive, fly, bungee jump etc......


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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 10:08 AM
Bruce Bilmes and Sue Boyle


PopsDogHouse

You don't present an opposing point of view Bruce. You don't have anything of value to contribute here.  You just come over and cry foul.  This isn't the Miscellaneous forum, and you don't see political discussion here just for the sake of political discussion.  I delete that crap.  But, you do see dialogue from time to time about government regulation and its impact on the food industry.  If good, relevant discussion is censored here, people will leave for a more open venue.  I am not referring to those who want to discuss politics.  I'm referring to those who want to discuss business.  And I can promise you that government involvement in business is a big issue for anyone in business.  And everyone here is not of the same opinion.  However, because most of these folks are entrepreneurs, you will find that many, not all, would probably hold to the belief system of a rugged individualist. 

I'm sorry that you find me and/or the forum to be a disgrace.  Does this mean you'll go away now?

You can rationalize it all you want but it doesn't change the fact that this board is a part of Roadfood.  We have rules here.  You think you can make your own rules.

I live in a black, white, and gray world.  I spend alot of time in the gray because I find more creativity, and many more interesting people there.  Anymore problems Bruce, please send them via PM.  Our discussion is over.

CCinNJ
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 10:10 AM
Sometimes people who don't smoke and eat oysters feel like cigarettes should be outlawed or cost $1000 a pack but leave the oysters alone. Go get those little girls that smoke. Uh oh.

mayor al
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 12:04 PM
Pops, Just in case you aren't aware. The rest of the moderators appreciate your efforts with this forum. We make no claim at having the knowledge of the business, so dealing with the law in relation to the food service industry would be an exercise in futility.
 Your 'steering' the discussions has been a good addition to the overall operation of the forums.

 We have faced some of the personality issues you are confronting now. Perhaps Management will intervene this time to resolve some of problems they seem to have within the administration.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 12:08 PM
Thank you Al.  Your comments are very much appreciated.

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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 1:55 PM
Wow......

Ever regret posting a simple comment???




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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 2:07 PM
The subject of the proposed regulations on the sale of raw oysters is a good one.  I happen to think these new regulations are a lousy idea.

MilwFoodlovers
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 4:25 PM
Perhaps the solution should be that the restaurant agrees to be held responsible if they serve a tainted product?

Bruce Bilmes and Susan Boyle
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 4:56 PM
Which they would be anyway, right?  I mean, the way the laws are right now, if someone eats a bad oyster at a restaurant and she dies, the restaurant is liable, isn't it?  And still 15 people a year die.  So you have to choose your level of death.

If an additive was available to restaurants that made food taste unbelievably delicious, but half the people who ate it died, I think most people would be in favor of banning it.  If something killed one person every century, I think practically nobody would ban it.

So everyone agrees that some things should be outlawed in food and we should assume the risk for other things.  The people who want this law enacted feel the benefits of those 15 lives a year outweigh the costs to oyster eaters and producers.  I think it goes overboard but I can see how some people might not agree with that.

mayor al
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Re:FDA to ban sale of raw Gulf oysters - Fri, 11/6/09 4:57 PM
Mil Food LVR- Isn't that how the law works now? The Jack in the Box disaster from some years back comes to mind??? The details are foggy to me as to how that was finally settled...Was JIB the final 'guilty party or was it the meat supplier????

In the Oyster case, I am sure the restaurant/ final seller would be partially accountable, but how about the others in the food supply chain?   Where does accountablity start, and how far does each level go??

This is a very complex issue, But somehow the consumer does need some 'insurance' that the final product is safe.

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