Should restaurants that don't fit the Roadfood theme be on this site?

jman

Foodbme
 

Phil from Philly
 
-----"the whole point of Roadfood.com is to help travelers find traditional regional foods like BBQ, and reviews for restaurants that don't belong here are increasingly cluttering up the site." 

 
I'm not sure how or where you got the credentials to decide what belongs here and what doesn't and what constitutes clutter. 
Suffice to say that if you read every forum and every post there are more what could be described as roadfood places discussed than anything else. 
Suggest you start with "New Jersey Hot Dogs"! 

It took 18 posts before someone decided to put this poster "in his place".  I've seen numerous posts from old timers here complaining about "slippage" of the subject matter, and I think that type of discussion is important for the community because it's old friends talking to old friends.  However, I feel that a newbie coming here and complaining about a review from Michael Stern, and then using it as a commentary against the site, is an attack, not a constructive criticism.  Phil, if you're not happy with the reviews or you're not happy with what you see at Roadfood.com in general, there is an alternative for you.   

I don't mean to attack the site, and I'm a huge fan of it.  I kept the tone constructive, and I didn't attack the restaurant or the reviewer.  I questioned whether reviews of restaurants that don't fit the site's theme belong here, and I don't claim to be the sole arbiter of what does and doesn't count as Roadfood - I picked what I thought was a blatant example, but several posters made good arguments for its inclusion. 

Davydd

The problem with roadfood is that when the Sterns started this venture there were still longtime regional restaurants serving unique foods to their region. Fast food, chains, TV, Internet, mobility, etc. is quickly wiping out regionalism. What's good gets spread around. Then there are few people opening up independent diners and cafes with a "roadfood" flavor. What is opening up are "chef driven" restaurants at a higher end more dinner oriented. Those restaurants are busy designing menus to harken a local flavor and bent. I wouldn't call them roadfood in the old traditional sense but they are independent and locally owned. Also regions are changing. The Minneapolis/St. Paul Twin Cities area had a huge influx of Southeast Asians (mainly Hmong) and Somalis. Those restaurants are serving unique foods that are hard to find in other regions and they are becoming dominant. Just read the local talk on Chowhound to confirm that. Ya, you betcha, the Twin Cities is changing. Few Minnesotans today even know about let alone tasted lefse and lutefisk and lingonberries are mostly sold at Ikea. 

If Somali food is characteristic of the Twin Cities, and hard to find elsewhere, it makes sense to include here.  I maintain that an upscale pizzeria is a sign of an increasingly suburbanizing South that's losing its character, but several of you posted well-thought-out arguments for why this review should be included.

Phil From Philly
 
Somalian restaurants can be found in several large cities.
 
I know Seattle has  several of them and so does DC, they aren't unique  to the Twin Cities.

I have avoided posting on this thread to see how the flow would go, but now I wish to add my $ .02.
 
Yes the defintion of RF is "defined" by the Sterns and has held fairly true for many years.  We as a society have changed as did the time and cultures.  So now the definition is a unique "opinion" per every person.
 
Regionalism - is a shrinking item, in such as the way we view it.  Food items have changed and migrated over time and place to place.  What was once found strictly in 1 region can now be found in other regions.
 
Case in point:  Look at the expansion of BBQ and the changes that have taken place to it over the many years.  Pork and Beef were the staples, now there is chicken and ribs and fish and mutton, sauces changed and reside in regional locations, but BBQ is no longer strictly a southern or Texas thing.
 
I know WJ tries to stay true tot he regionalism as defined by the original definition, but he also sees that across the country that we as a food loving culture have expanded and blended regions, sometimes creating totally new creations, other times just changing details (like sauce).  I have always valued WJ opinions and love his devotion for maintaining a closeness to the original.
 
I love finding the mom and pop out of the main stream places, sampling the locals take on the food they created.  I know here in middle tennesee there has been a huge influx of hispanic peoples and that has caused the food scene to change to include them.  In LA there is a large vietnamese population, and I think of LA for not only being cajun and creole, but also for the vietnamese/asian style of cooking.
 
They great part about roadfood is that we are a living breathing community, that enjoy the good things in life, and enjoy searching them out and sharing with the others.  I drool over WJ and BB trip reports or Ayersian's ice cream adventures, or Billyboys escapades through NYC.  I miss being able to get out as much as I used to, but when I do I love exploring and adventuring to places known and unknown.
 
As for the original posters comments about EVO, not every review I agree with, but I feel that times and locations are ever changing and therefore the defintion of Roadfood is ever evolving too.  What might not have made it "Roadfood" in the past, makes it "Roadfood" now because the times and traditions around Charlestown have changed.
 
 
 
 
 

A few things about my home area and then some other more general comments.
      Portland's recent development as a a food tourist center has led to a lot of local commentary about why this is so .And some of it is stuff that is at the heart of the road food debate.
      Portland is known for salmon but most chefs here don't serve all that much salmon anymore. They serve many variations of pork dishes because it is cheaper than salmon and there are excellent abattoirs that serve exceptional local pork. Chefs are more inclined to work with local meats, fruits vegetables, and wines and no tavern in Portland can survive without local microbrews on tap. Coffee roasting is also done by locals. Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are/ were to New York.
          Roadfood has won in Portland (and I believe in much of America). Chefs here make great sandwiches, great hamburgers, interesting ice cream and other American traditional foods and are as creative as anybody. And places like the Cameo Cafe mentioned by Ed Sails here serve excellent combinations of American traditional foods along with international additions that serve to make these American standards even better. These
 dishes that are as good as anything made in the past.
        My road food philosophy is very simple"Good is Good" and good food should be eaten and reviewed on road food. An excellent Hungarian place in Albany,  Oregon is a find and a great experience and sheld be shared here. Hamburgers
are a national food and just because you can get a good hamburger in Fort Wayne or Providence does not mean a roadfooder would not be interested in a good hamburger in Los Angeles, Meedford. or Chico when traveling  
           I guess I agree with Davvydd a lot. Portland has a large vietnamese population of long standing and, like Minneapolis , has a large population of creative chefs who frequently take American classics, upgrade the ingredients and turn out burgers, Mac and Cheese, sandwiches and other items that are creative and tasty, the essence of road food. Our standards evolve and change. I am much less tolerant of inferior beer and coffee than when I first started reading road food books and respectfully I have never seen the distinction between road food books and website reviews. I love this place and just wish I had contributed more.
       Phil from Philly, thank you for opening this topic. An opinion that is well reasoned is always welcome and i hope to hear more from you. And i must say that Michael's review  of southern pizza place with unusual toppings was a feature of the pre website days as well. There was a place in Lafayette, Louisiana called Dean-O that he reviewed in one of the books that featured pizza with crawfish topping which I remember very well and i recall how good the pizza was and not being very worried about how regional the dish was.

You know Don, I'm really going to miss seeing you in Mobile.

Anyone of our New York or Chicago Glee Clubbers "know a guy who knows a guy" that will "gently" persuade Don to join us?

 

Michael Hoffman


You know Don, I'm really going to miss seeing you in Mobile.

mr chips


 Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are to New York.
  

 
Mr Chips, 
 
As a native New Yorker who can back up my statement, comparing Vietnamese sandwich shops to something that is 
A- Past it's prime
B- dying (or dead depending on who you speak with)
C- Caters to tourists
Is probably not a good thing....
 
 

MH & Edsails
I would love to be there in Mobile, and Thank you both.
The "Glee Club" meet ups are (as barney says) "Legned....... Wait for it...... DAIRY!!!"
 
Right now I am just focused on getting dad out of the hospital and back to "normal"

wanderingjew

mr chips


Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are to New York.
 

Mr Chips, 

As a native New Yorker who can back up my statement, comparing Vietnamese sandwich shops to something that is 
A- Past it's prime
B- dying (or dead depending on who you speak with)
C- Caters to tourists
Is probably not a good thing....

Sad to hear that.  There are a bunch of Jewish delis around me that do well, supported by a large Jewish population in the Philly area (as well as people like me who just can't get enough corned beef).  Are most of the NYC Jewish delis in former Jewish neighborhoods that have since been taken over by more recent immigrants?
 
I wonder if South Philly's Italian Market might suffer a similar fate in the years to come.  The area is getting an influx of both new ethnic groups and yuppies, and a lot of the natives have married non-Italians and/or moved to the suburbs.  The area still has a lot of authenticity, but I would hate to see it turn into a Disneyfied tourist attraction in the future.

Roadfood to me is, Great Food, Prepared by Great people who care. I could care less about the rest, I just want Great Food..........pnwc

pnwchef


Roadfood to me is, Great Food, Prepared by Great people who care. I could care less about the rest, I just want Great Food..........pnwc

Yep.

Phil from Philly

wanderingjew

mr chips


Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are to New York.

Mr Chips, 

As a native New Yorker who can back up my statement, comparing Vietnamese sandwich shops to something that is 
A- Past it's prime
B- dying (or dead depending on who you speak with)
C- Caters to tourists
Is probably not a good thing....

Sad to hear that.  There are a bunch of Jewish delis around me that do well, supported by a large Jewish population in the Philly area (as well as people like me who just can't get enough corned beef).  Are most of the NYC Jewish delis in former Jewish neighborhoods that have since been taken over by more recent immigrants?

I wonder if South Philly's Italian Market might suffer a similar fate in the years to come.  The area is getting an influx of both new ethnic groups and yuppies, and a lot of the natives have married non-Italians and/or moved to the suburbs.  The area still has a lot of authenticity, but I would hate to see it turn into a Disneyfied tourist attraction in the future.

 
First of all I love Jewish Deli. Being in my late 40's that's considered a rarity for someone in my age group. And I'm probably more upset than you in the decline.
 
The decline of the Jewish Deli probably began well over 30 years ago. NYC has a huge Jewish Population but those who supported the Jewish Delis and made them thrive have simply passed on.  The current generation simply prefers something that's newer, as one of my friends put it, going to Jewish Deli's remind them of their grand parents and as much as they loved there grandparents, they don't want to be their grandparents. Nowadays typical NYC roadfood consistes of restaurants with West African, Latin American, Carribean and Asian influences so yes, in a way, there are new immigrants but at the same time, "the delis are just not cool, hip and trendy"......There are only a few Jewish Delis in the city and those in the suburbs seem to thrive more as caterers for special event but even those delis are starting to go out of business.  
 
Maybe the average age of the jewish population in PHilly is older than that in the NYC area?

I love Jewish Delicatessens.  I often go to them... with my mother or family.
 
My friends who aren't Jewish don't like them as much.
 
I just don't find kishka, knishes or chopped liver sandwiches on rye at other restaurants.
 
They have a place and I hope that they remain.
 
it would be a sad day without them.
 
 

wanderingjew
The decline of the Jewish Deli probably began well over 30 70 years ago.

When I was growing up in L.A., Fairfax Avenue had Canter's (always touristy and show biz) the Bagel, the Stage and probably 10 small 4 table delis, some just counter places without even seating.There were a few that were strictly fish even. Last year when I went up there, not even the small places were left. Canter's has never been an option for me. The area where the Bagel and Stage were is now primarily Ethiopian restaurants. At least in L.A., I'd split the difference and say 45 years ago is when the delis started to disappear on Fairfax.

wanderingjew

Phil from Philly

wanderingjew

mr chips


Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are to New York.

Mr Chips, 

As a native New Yorker who can back up my statement, comparing Vietnamese sandwich shops to something that is 
A- Past it's prime
B- dying (or dead depending on who you speak with)
C- Caters to tourists
Is probably not a good thing....

Sad to hear that.  There are a bunch of Jewish delis around me that do well, supported by a large Jewish population in the Philly area (as well as people like me who just can't get enough corned beef).  Are most of the NYC Jewish delis in former Jewish neighborhoods that have since been taken over by more recent immigrants?

I wonder if South Philly's Italian Market might suffer a similar fate in the years to come.  The area is getting an influx of both new ethnic groups and yuppies, and a lot of the natives have married non-Italians and/or moved to the suburbs.  The area still has a lot of authenticity, but I would hate to see it turn into a Disneyfied tourist attraction in the future.

First of all I love Jewish Deli. Being in my late 40's that's considered a rarity for someone in my age group. And I'm probably more upset than you in the decline.

The decline of the Jewish Deli probably began well over 30 years ago. NYC has a huge Jewish Population but those who supported the Jewish Delis and made them thrive have simply passed on.  The current generation simply prefers something that's newer, as one of my friends put it, going to Jewish Deli's remind them of their grand parents and as much as they loved there grandparents, they don't want to be their grandparents. Nowadays typical NYC roadfood consistes of restaurants with West African, Latin American, Carribean and Asian influences so yes, in a way, there are new immigrants but at the same time, "the delis are just not cool, hip and trendy"......There are only a few Jewish Delis in the city and those in the suburbs seem to thrive more as caterers for special event but even those delis are starting to go out of business.  

Maybe the average age of the jewish population in PHilly is older than that in the NYC area?

 
Most of the Jewish delis around me are newer businesses; I can't think of any ancient institutions like The Stage or Katz's.  You commented earlier in the thread about only having classic Rhode Island food once in a while - I suspect NYC people consider Jewish deli food passe, while older suburban Philly Jews might see it as comfort food from their youth.

mr chips


A few things about my home area and then some other more general comments.
    Portland's freest arrival as a a food tourist center has led to a lot of local commentary about why this is so.And some of it is stuff that is at the heart of the road food debate.
    Portland is known for salmon but most chefs here don't serve all that much salmon anymore. They serve many variations of pork dishes because it is cheaper than salmon and there are excellent abattoirs that serve exceptional local meat.. Chefs are more inclined to work with local meats, fruits vegetables, and wines and no tavern in Portland can survive without local microbrews on tape. Coffee roasting is also done by local. Cheap Vietnamese sandwich shops are now as important to road food type places in Portland  as Jewish delis are to New York.
        Roadfood has won in Portland (and I believe in much of America). Chefs here make great sandwiches, great hamburgers, interesting ice cream and other American traditional foods and are as creative as anybody. And places like the Cameo Cafe mentioned by Ed Sails here serve excellent combinations of American traditional foods along with international additions that serve to make these American standards even better. These
dishes that are as good as anything made in the past.
      My road food philosophy is very simple"Good is Good and should be eaten and reviewed on road food. An excellent Hungarian place in Albany,  Oregon is a find and a great experience. Hamburges
are a national food and just because you can get a good hamburger in Fort wayne does not mean a roadfooder would be interested in a good hamburger in Los Angeles, Meedford. or Chico.
         I guess I agree with Davvydd a lot. Portland has a large vietnamese population of long standing and like minneapolis a has a large population of chefs who frequently take American classics, upgrade the ingredients and turn out burger, Mac and Cheese, sandwiches and other items that are creative and tasty, the essence of road food. Our standards evolve and change. I am much less tolerant of inferior beer and coffee than when I first started reading road food books and respectfully I have never seen the distinction between road food books and website reviews. I love this place and just wish I had contributed more.
     Phil from Philly, thank you for opening this topic. An opinion that is well reasoned is always welcome and i hope to hear more from you. And i must say that Michael's review  of southern pizza place with unusual toppings was a feature of the pre website days as well. There was a place in Louisiana that he reviewed in one of the books that featured pizza with crawfish topping which I remember very well and i recall how good the pizza was and not being very worried about how regional the dish was.

Mr Chips, Portland is in a Food world all in its own. I think of portland as Food freedom, food made with a great amount of Imagination, freedom to experiment, freedom to be different, freedom to change, freedom to be yourself, food made from the heart. I hope it never changes, It's the way food should be..........Mr Chips, I thought we were going to keep this prize for ourselves, now we may have to share it with the world.................pnwc...........P.S. The fresh Italian sausage at Otto's is real good.

mar52


I love Jewish Delicatessens.  I often go to them... with my mother or family.

My friends who aren't Jewish don't like them as much.

I just don't find kishka, knishes or chopped liver sandwiches on rye at other restaurants.

They have a place and I hope that they remain.

it would be a sad day without them.

Mar, your right, it would be a sad day. The things I missed most when I moved out to the PNW were Italian and Jewish Deli's and Diner's. I miss the family owned food establishments that welcomed you with open arms. One of my favorite Italian Restaurants/Taverns would know me by name, the owner would come out and yell yo me " Bill, how about some baked Ziti, you like it al dente  right ?? . I think we miss the simpler times, good food, from the heart. People sitting down having a cup of coffee with endless refills. I would be happy to share a Chopped liver with onion and Rye, any day of the week with you. I may have to order a side dish of pickled Herring, sour cream and onions... The Diners offered Hot Turkey sans, Stuffed cabbage, liver and onions all the old time favorites. In the morning and late evenings the home fried potatoes would be cooking on the back of the grill as the short order cook flipped eggs. I believe in moving forward in my life, I just don't want to lose the values, pride and caring these places offered to us .....................Bill

Bill, you're right about that personal feel and the side of pickled herring and onions in sour cream.  (Yum)
 
Sharon will protest but here are other things she can order.  Maybe next time?
 
We're also losing the mom and pop grocery stores.  My grandparents owned one in Boyle Heights in the 40s and 50s.  Nothing like having your lox sliced right from the huge side of salmon or grabbing your pickle with long tongs from the pickle barrel.
 
There are some things the future generations will never experience or know about. 

This has been a marvelous thread and i would like to expand a little bit about what i think is a road food restaurant. One of the things that sometimes irritates me is that an area is devoid of road food places. That comment has been made about I-5 south of Portland to essentially Redding, California. Novack's in Albany, Oregon a 4 meal oasis of excellent Hungarian cuisine which is delicious food , the A and R Drive In with its huge cones of high butterfat Umpqua Ice cream in Rice Hill is of high quality, Ashland's Wild Goose Cafe with its excellent, muffins, fried oysters, breakfasts, Weed's Tip Top Cafe for its small town feel and good if unspectacular breakfasts, or Mt. Shasta City's really good new Age bakeries and good coffee. Travelers need to know of theses places and I think  it imperative that such places need to be reviewed here on road food.. Just because you can get good pancakes, bacon or hamburgers  in Portland, Providence or Chicago does not mean a website devoted to good American food should not feature places serving good versions of these things in Pocatello,Chico, or Boca Raton

I'm getting ready to do a thread about a burger place I have been to a few times now that I think is phenomenal. What is interesting to me is looking at everything and trying to decide what is Roadfood and what is not. In some ways the place does not fit the definition of Roadfood but in others it offers exactly what we look for in road food-----originality, comfort, the personal touch (including making things the way the customer wants) and delicious food. I am going to see some interesting comments I am sure on it. The bottom line to me------if it makes food that makes me feel good and tastes delicious, and caters to what I consider comfort food, I consider it Roadfood. 

EdSails


I'm getting ready to do a thread about a burger place I have been to a few times now that I think is phenomenal. What is interesting to me is looking at everything and trying to decide what is Roadfood and what is not. In some ways the place does not fit the definition of Roadfood but in others it offers exactly what we look for in road food-----originality, comfort, the personal touch (including making things the way the customer wants) and delicious food. I am going to see some interesting comments I am sure on it. The bottom line to me------if it makes food that makes me feel good and tastes delicious, and caters to what I consider comfort food, I consider it Roadfood. 

 
I am looking forward to the thread. 
 
Had there been a www.roadfood.com in 1987 I surely would have written about a little hole-in-the-wall hamburger carry-out I discovered in Arlington, VA. 

mr chips


This has been a marvelous thread and i would like to expand a little bit about what i think is a road food restaurant. One of the things that sometimes irritates me is that an area is devoid of road food places. That comment has been made about I-5 south of Portland to essentially Redding, California. Novack's in Albany, Oregon a 4 meal oasis of excellent Hungarian cuisine which is delicious food , the A and R Drive In with its huge cones of high butterfat Umpqua Ice cream in Rice Hill is of high quality, Ashland's Wild Goose Cafe with its excellent, muffins, fried oysters, breakfasts, Weed's Tip Top Cafe for its small town feel and good if unspectacular breakfasts, or Mt. Shasta City's really good new Age bakeries and good coffee. Travelers need to know of theses places and I think  it imperative that such places need to be reviewed here on road food.. Just because you can get good pancakes, bacon or hamburgers  in Portland, Providence or Chicago does not mean a website devoted to good American food should not feature places serving good versions of these things in Pocatello,Chico, or Boca Raton

You forgot Jasper's and La Tapatia. 

This has come up in a few of the entries above, that maybe, for some of us, how long a place has been in existence is a factor in what we think of as road food.  Some of these time-honored "institutions" are what we picture in our minds as road food--those places that have stuck to their formulas from years past and preserved them for future generations to appreciate. 
 
I remember wondering about this topic when I saw the review for Red Truck Bakery in Warrenton, VA, which opened in 2009, replacing a long-term bakery that closed in that location.  I thought, "What's so 'road food' about that place?"  Okay, I still wonder that.   (I've been to it, as it's in my sister's hometown.)
 
Any thoughts on the historical aspect--is that a part of the issue?

pnwchef


Roadfood to me is, Great Food, Prepared by Great people who care. I could care less about the rest, I just want Great Food..........pnwc

Well said. 

Agree, Ed. pnwchef nailed it.  Here in Milwaukee we have awesome Jewish deli's. Some of our friends on Roadfood have eaten at these places. We also have great Kosher butchers-best veal patties I have ever had.

CajunKing, I was just reading over this thread and wanted to thank you for your nod!  And your reply was so well thought out and written.  You really nailed it!  I love sharing my fondess for NYC foods and I should be posting another trip report soon of a recent escapade with The Travelin' Man.