A Line That has to be Drawn

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Treetop Tom
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A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 10:02 AM
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[Helpful answer received] / [List Solutions Only]
Once again, a discussion on another thread has brought out the questioning linguist in me.  It goes something like this:  Some sandwiches are named by their ingredients – pimento cheese or peanut butter & jelly or pulled pork.  Not much to think about – they are what they’re made of.  But how much leeway do you give named sandwiches before they cross the line into no longer representing a proper specimen?  For example, most people (but not all) will now accept that a Reuben can be made with either corned beef or pastrami (or amongst some scofflaws, even turkey, substituting slaw for kraut [sometimes referred to as a Rachel]).  Some will accept 1000 Island dressing, others demand Russian.  Traditionally, a Monte Cristo is made with ham & Emmentaler or Gruyere cheese, dipped, deep-fried and served with jam (or it was in my neck of the woods, anyway).  Many recipes now call for turkey, either in place of, or in addition to, the ham.  Some substitute Swiss cheese for the traditional French cheeses.  Some leave out the jam altogether, to the horror of purists.  Would a Muffuletta still be correctly called one if it was made with American cold cuts and cheese with pickle relish rather than Italian cold cuts, cheeses and olive salad spread?   Is a Devonshire made with beef and Gouda cheese sauce a Devonshire?  Is a chicken cheesesteak really a cheesesteak at all?  What is a sandwich you draw a firm line on?  Are there any?
<message edited by Treetop Tom on Thu, 09/12/13 11:32 AM>

Phildelmar
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 11:10 AM
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Good points. A Reuben made with turkey is called a Rachel around here.

myterry2
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 11:16 AM
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Correct..but it's all about making money...owners of these type sandwich shops, deli's, etc., don't want to miss one dollar of business, so they starting inventing cross breeding of long time staple sandwiches.  And it continues to be a work in progress.
 

ann peeples
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 12:46 PM
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[This post was marked as helpful]
In 1977, a Monte Christo was turkey, ham and American cheese. Deep fried, dusted with powdered sugar and serves with strawberry jam. The other sandwich I noticed that is different is a club sandwich. In my day it was basically a BLT with turkey.Cut in quarters. Nowadays, at famous sandwich parlors, its ham, turkey and cheese-no bacon!

ALL GOOD
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 1:39 PM
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A grilled cheese used to be the same everywhere you went..white bread, american cheese, grilled on the flat iron.  Now, today, we have specialty food trucks and even restaurants that ONLY do grilled cheese in an array of varieties.  Bring back the old standard!

DaddyRoux
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 2:45 PM
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These misnomer food crimes started with Chicken and Shrimp "Fajitas" in the '80's.
 Once sandwich ingredients veer from the accepted recipe, they should take on a different name.
DR

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 3:54 PM
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Then there were Olive Garden's commercials a couple of years ago for chicken scampi, which is a kind of hard thing to do.

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 7:43 PM
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I've never heard of deep frying a Monte Cristo.

ann peeples
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 7:49 PM
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I worked for a California based restaurant named JoJos- that's how they did it-I am thinking they came in premade and frozen.........thus the deep frying. I had never heard of the sandwich before, so I had nothing to compare it to....

Phildelmar
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 8:21 PM
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The ones that I've had weren't deep fried.

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 8:49 PM
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Michael Hoffman

 
I've never heard of deep frying a Monte Cristo.

 
Phildelmar


The ones that I've had weren't deep fried.

Curious.  How were they done if they weren't fried in oil?  Grilled?  Not all of the ones I've had were full immersion fried, probably, but they were definitely fried.  I wasn't aware they came any other way.
<message edited by Treetop Tom on Thu, 09/12/13 8:51 PM>

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 8:56 PM
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They're usually fried in a skillet, or on a flattop.

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:11 PM
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Michael Hoffman


They're usually fried in a skillet, or on a flattop.

Deep fried in a skillet I would understand.  Shallow frying in a skillet where the sandwich had to be turned would allow for greater grease absorption and a soggy crust.
<message edited by Treetop Tom on Thu, 09/12/13 9:14 PM>

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:18 PM
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As my grandchildren are won't to say, Whatever.

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:22 PM
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Michael Hoffman


As my grandchildren are won't to say, Whatever.

Spoken like a true know-it-all, Michael.

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:25 PM
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How very clever. Who's writing your material?

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:30 PM
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Michael Hoffman


How very clever. Who's writing your material?

It must be a great convenience to your wife and family to have someone who knows everything there is to know right at hand.

ayersian
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:30 PM
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myterry2

Correct..but it's all about making money...owners of these type sandwich shops, deli's, etc., don't want to miss one dollar of business, so they starting inventing cross breeding of long time staple sandwiches.  And it continues to be a work in progress.

I think this is what makes Roadfooding so much fun for me, although it spoils you quickly.  For example, I grew up in the South and didn't eat a real Philly cheesesteak until adulthood.  Yet my mother made us Steak-umm sandwiches that we loved as kids (though I'd never buy those again, even for nostalgia's sake).  Now that I've thoroughly studied and consumed the finest cheesesteaks in Philly, I'm not that inclined to try them outside of said city.  Sure, there are hits and misses, but there's always something else better to eat, too.  And it's not that I'm trying to stay as regionally appropriate as possible -- it's simply a matter of taste and preference.  I love when restaurants attempt their own versions of the classics, especially when they come really, really close to the taste of the originals.  Those are the places about which I am most enthusiastic to write!    Chris
 
 

CajunKing
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 9:50 PM
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I agree with you Chris, the differences between even restaurants that are in the same city are fun to explore and learn about.  The histories of many of these places often have a central link (somebody worked for or was the nephew of....) and it is also fun to learn about them too.

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 10:06 PM
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CajunKing


I agree with you Chris, the differences between even restaurants that are in the same city are fun to explore and learn about.  The histories of many of these places often have a central link (somebody worked for or was the nephew of....) and it is also fun to learn about them too.

Along those same lines, I've always been interested in cross-town (sometimes cross-street) claims of being "the first."  Who really was the first in El Reno, OK, to smash together ground beef and onions to make an onion burger?  Who was the first to make a "Juicy Lucy"?  Many can claim it, but only one can be correct.  But who knows?

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Thu, 09/12/13 11:02 PM
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Treetop Tom


Michael Hoffman


How very clever. Who's writing your material?

It must be a great convenience to your wife and family to have someone who knows everything there is to know right at hand.

I'm sorry you can't handle the fact that I know how a particular sandwich is supposed to be done, and you obviously do not. I guess the fact that I find the food at Chubby's  to be quite good drives you ever the edge. Too bad. Oh, and I don't know quite everything. For instance, I don't know why your knickers are always in a twist.
<message edited by Michael Hoffman on Thu, 09/12/13 11:34 PM>

easydoesit
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 3:33 AM
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[This post was marked as helpful]
The first Monte Christo I can remember was in Alaska in the mid 70's.  Don't remember the exact ingredients, but it was dipped and deep-fried and delicious.  Several others after that were the same.  Lately, I would like another like that, but can't find it.  They always seem to be grilled, which I always considered to be the lazy cook's way.  I'm looking for the old way.
 
Re the club sandwich, and Ann Peeples remark about bacon -- yes, what happened to the bacon in many club sandwiches lately?  It's just gone, and that removes it from the 'club' category, for me.
  

ocdreamr
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 5:30 AM
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I saw this the first time the other day. It was in the frozen case at the grocers.  All I could do was look at it & ask myself which is it????

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 9:01 AM
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Sigh.  Please go troll somewhere else, Michael.  Your constant need to “score points” has transcended your goal of aggravation and simply has become tiresome and pitiable.   And just so you know, you've become the first poster I've ever blocked, so your future "witty rejoinders" to me will be (thankfully) falling on deaf ears.  Have a nice day!
<message edited by Treetop Tom on Fri, 09/13/13 10:03 AM>

Phildelmar
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 10:40 AM
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Was just looking at a menu from Catherine Rooneys, an Irish pub in Wilmington, and they list a Monte Cristo quesadilla.

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 10:55 AM
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The poor sparrow in the treetop just can't stand the heat.

pnwchef
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 12:08 PM
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It only took about 10 hrs for treetop to start a argument. At least he's screwing up his own post, not someone else's..........

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 12:16 PM
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Ah, the flagger strikes again.

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 12:21 PM
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[This post was marked as helpful]
BAM!  Another troll blocked!  I wonder why I didn't do this months ago - LOL!!!

tiki
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 1:14 PM
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Deep frying ANY sandwich is the lazy mans--made cheap--adaptaion!! Sauteing--in BUTTER!--is way CLAAIER, TASTIER AND JUST PLAIN DELICIOUS---ESPECIALLY THE WAY MOST PLACE MAINTAIN THEIR DEEP FRY OIL! When i can smell the deep fryer from the front door, i KNOW what the fried food will taste like already!
 

Jim2903
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 5:08 PM
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The Monte Cristos made at most of the Greek-owned family restaurant/coffee shops in and around Chicago are basically ham, turkey and cheese on French toast. I prefer the whole-thing-dipped version, thought I must admit it's getting harder to get one of those entire bombs down these days.

ChrisOC
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 5:29 PM
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What I really  hate is when they serve a Monte Cristo open faced

Buffalo Tarheel
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 7:17 PM
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This topic caused me to start thinking, and I hope it is not too far off topic.  Schwabl's here in Buffalo serves an outstanding beef on weck sandwich, which many Roadfooders have had the pleasure of eating.  Beef on weck is a Buffalo tradition, and Schwabl's has one of the best offerings.  Yet they also offer roast beef on white bread with gravy, and that is also a very good meal.  In some ways it has some advantages over the beef on weck because the meet is thicker than other restaurants' offerings.  It can be a challenge to eat the  beef on weck, but the hot andwich with gravy is easier with the knife and fork.
 
Anyway, is Anderson's getting away from its specialty by offering the hot sandwich, which you can find anywhere else in the country?  Should they stay with beef on weck only?  I suppose this is not a major point.  I doubt you will find Steve's Prince of Steaks offering a Steak-ums on white bread sandwich, to make another example.  And Schwabl's hot not decided to offer a chicken wing on weck sandwich.  Now that would be challenging...

ann peeples
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 7:41 PM
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All I know is the version of a Monte Christo from the 70s. All I know is a club sandwich from the 60s. And I know Welsh Rarebit( not rabbit) from the 50s. Just wish I could get the versions I enjoyed.........
 

Treetop Tom
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Fri, 09/13/13 9:43 PM
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Buffalo Tarheel


Anyway, is Anderson's getting away from its specialty by offering the hot sandwich, which you can find anywhere else in the country?  Should they stay with beef on weck only?  I suppose this is not a major point. 

Not a major point, but an interesting concept - are they gaining more by offering the hot open face beef sandwich at the expense of the more famous dish?  I suppose if you subscribe to the idea that they wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making a buck, the answer would be easy.  My guess is that they wouldn't be offering the hot beef sandwich if there wasn't a market.  But that still doesn't answer the question of whether the beef on weck is any the worse for it.  Is it this kind of Plain-Jane competition that hastens the demise of classic-type sandwiches?  I don't know, but my guess is that true classics like the BOW can handle a little competition.
<message edited by Treetop Tom on Fri, 09/13/13 10:08 PM>

Foodbme
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Sat, 09/14/13 2:58 AM
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Michael Hoffman

I've never heard of deep frying a Monte Cristo.

Replace the Batteries in your Hearing Aids!

Foodbme
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Sat, 09/14/13 3:02 AM
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Buffalo Tarheel


This topic caused me to start thinking, and I hope it is not too far off topic.  Schwabl's here in Buffalo serves an outstanding beef on weck sandwich, which many Roadfooders have had the pleasure of eating.  Beef on weck is a Buffalo tradition, and Schwabl's has one of the best offerings.  Yet they also offer roast beef on white bread with gravy, and that is also a very good meal.  In some ways it has some advantages over the beef on weck because the meet is thicker than other restaurants' offerings.  It can be a challenge to eat the  beef on weck, but the hot andwich with gravy is easier with the knife and fork.

Anyway, is Anderson's getting away from its specialty by offering the hot sandwich, which you can find anywhere else in the country?  Should they stay with beef on weck only?  I suppose this is not a major point.  I doubt you will find Steve's Prince of Steaks offering a Steak-ums on white bread sandwich, to make another example.  And Schwabl's hot not decided to offer a chicken wing on weck sandwich.  Now that would be challenging...

Boneless Wings on a Weck! Now THAT Sounds Interesting!!!

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Sat, 09/14/13 11:22 AM
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Foodbme


Michael Hoffman

I've never heard of deep frying a Monte Cristo.

Replace the Batteries in your Hearing Aids!

Considering the fact that a Monte Cristo is supposed to be fried in a skillet or on a flattop then it is clear that when someone puts a battered sandwich in a deep fryer what comes out of said fryer is something other than a Monte Cristo.


boyardee65
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Sat, 09/14/13 12:09 PM
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[This post was marked as helpful]
Having worked at a lot of diners over the years, I feel qualified to answers the Monte Christo question. In the 70's a Monte Christo was always ham, turkey, American and Swiss cheese, dipped in French toast batter, fried, dusted with powdered sugar, and served with currant jelly. I have seen it made lately by cooking the French toast and then assembling the rest of the ingredients. I don't consider this to be a true representation of the classic but a poor imitation... 
 
        David O.

pnwchef
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Sat, 09/14/13 12:22 PM
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boyardee65


Having worked at a lot of diners over the years, I feel qualified to answers the Monte Christo question. In the 70's a Monte Christo was always ham, turkey, American and Swiss cheese, dipped in French toast batter, fried, dusted with powdered sugar, and served with currant jelly. I have seen it made lately by cooking the French toast and then assembling the rest of the ingredients. I don't consider this to be a true representation of the classic but a poor imitation... 

      David O.

David, well said........I think they do this to save time, not caring about quality.......The problem with doing it right is, you have to grill both flat sides of the sandwich, then turn on it side and brown all four sides.......takes time, it's a pain in the butt..................I had a sandwich on my menu, triple decker club using egg bread, crust cut off, ham, swiss, turkey and american cheese. I then dipped it in egg batter, then into seasoned bread crumbs. We then deep fried it until golden brown..........The outside was not greasy, it had a nice crunch with a hot cheesy inside......The chicks loved it.....................pnwc

WarToad
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Mon, 09/16/13 2:29 PM
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Treetop Tom


a Reuben can be made with either corned beef or pastrami (or amongst some scofflaws, even turkey, substituting slaw for kraut [sometimes referred to as a Rachel]). 

 
In my neck of the woods a Reuben made with turkey would be called a turkey sandwich.  And likely thrown back at the kitchen.  That's just blasphemy.


carolina bob
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Mon, 09/16/13 3:27 PM
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WarToad




In my neck of the woods a Reuben made with turkey would be called a turkey sandwich.  And likely thrown back at the kitchen.  That's just blasphemy.

 
 
 
That's the same way I feel about a so-called chicken cheesesteak. There ain't no such critter.

The Monk
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Mon, 09/16/13 3:28 PM
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Well, maybe you should be required to use quotations to delineate one from the original. For example, a "Reuben" made with pastrami from a Reuben made with corned beef!!! Only trying to help. 

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Mon, 09/16/13 3:34 PM
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If it isn't corned beef, Swiss cheese, sauerkraut and thousand Islands dressing on rye, grilled, then it isn't a Reuben.

1bbqboy
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 4:58 PM
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Isn't a Pastrami a "Hot Pastrami" or has that disappeared from the lexicon too?

1bbqboy
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 4:58 PM
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Isn't a Pastrami a "Hot Pastrami" or has that disappeared from the lexicon too?

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 5:06 PM
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I don't know. I always order a hot pastrami sandwich. I don't recall whether it was ever Hot Pastrami on a menu. Hot Pastrami was what my father and grandfather ordered, and I guess that's where I got it.

cavandre
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 5:19 PM
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And don't get me started on all the faux Martinis out there!

Michael Hoffman
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 7:16 PM
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There are no faux Martinis. There are Martinis and there are other drinks.

CCinNJ
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Re:A Line That has to be Drawn - Tue, 09/17/13 10:14 PM
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Monte Cristo is way over the line in my Dept. of Donuts...