Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (seafarer john)

Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:29:02 GMT

Around here it is usually pronounced JI'-RO. I'm sure the Greeks behind the counter cringe every time they hear it, but I'm comforted in theknowledge that they recover quickly when the cash register rings up another sale.

Cheers, John

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Scorereader)

Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:43:40 GMT

In DC, it's pretty much subs. Except some Italian places which will call them grinders.

I think, since DC is such a meld of people from ALL over the US and world, you see ALL the terms for this kind of sandwich, but sub is most common...hot or cold.

And for the record, a Gyro (which, of course, is nothing like a submarine sandwich) is neither pronounced "hero" any more than it is pronouced jie-roh (like pyro). It's Ghiero. (half way between yiero, and hard "g" Giero).

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Scorereader)

Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:36:33 GMT

I'm originally from upstate, and that's true, we pretty much called them subs.
But, from time to time, you;d see hoagie or hero and, if memory serves me correct, the hoagie roll was shorter than a 12" sub roll, and had sesame seeds on the top.
The sub, was 12" long and had no seeds. Most places would either serve a whole sub or half sub.

But some places (a rarity) had 8" hoagie rolls instead of the traditional sub rolls. So you'd get a "sub" on a "hoagie" roll.

A "hero" was the same as a sub and the name was used at a few delis that were trying to be different and pass themselves off as "authentic" by using the NYC term.

A "grinder" was a similar sandwich, but the bread was a little different. It was tougher, chewier bread and would sometimes be grilled. Again, this was a hard to find item.

But, as Berndog pointed out, the VAST majority of places sold hot subs and cold subs.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (berndog)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:56:03 GMT

In upstate New York, they have always been known as submarine sandwiches, regardless of being cold or hot. In fact, many menu boards list the cold subs on the left side, then list the hot subs on the right side. A hot meatball sub is still called a sub.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Phishmonger)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:55:46 GMT

Here in Eastern CT, we've always called them grinders, whether hot or cold. And, slightly off topic, we're grateful that our Sub Base has been taken off the closure list, thus saving the local economy of most towns all up and down the Ct-RI border.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Chiefley)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 14:08:38 GMT

Michael,
Good work on duplicating the Grinder experience. We should compare recipes.

I just discovered a link to a restaurant in Canton, OH that claims to be making real Grinders. I will check this out in the next few days.

http://www.10best.com/Canton/Restaurants/American_Continental/?businessID=47668 [url][/url]

Chiefley

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Chiefley)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:42:37 GMT

I did some research on the web and found some general info the origin of these Italian sandwiches and an interesting note about Grinders and the shipyards in Groton.

From http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodsandwiches.html:

quote:
The "Sub" (salami, cheese, peppers, olives, oil) was introduced to America by immigrants from Southern Italy in the early part of the 20th century. The progenitor of the sub was probably the "muffolette," (see below for references to the muffoletta sandwich). This type of Sicilian bread was traditionally toasted then filled with fresh ricotta, anchovies oregano, and olive oil. Other Italian meat/cheese/vegetable filled breads (calzones, impanatas) were also brought to this country. After World War II Italian food gained popularity with mainstream America. Over time, the sub assimilated. This accounts for the use of other meats (turkey, roast beef), cheese (American, Swiss), vegetables (lettuce, tomato) and spreads (mayonnaise, mustard).

"Pizzerias may have been among the first Italian-American eateries, but even at the turn of the century distinctions were clear-cut as to what constituted a true ristorante. To be merely a pizzamaker was to be at the bottom of the culinary and social scale; so many pizzeria owners began offering other dishes, including the 'hero' sandwich (also, depending on the region of the United States, called a 'wedge,' a 'hoagie,' a 'sub,' or a 'grinder') made on a Italian loaf of bread with lots of salami, cheese, and peppers."
---America Eats Out, John Mariani [Morrow:New York] 1991 (p. 66)

During World War II, the commissary of the United States Navy's submarine base in Groton, Connecticut, ordered five hundred hero sandwiches a day from Benedetto Capaldo's Italian deli in New London, where the name 'sub' was soon applied to the item."
---America Eats Out, John Mariani [Morrow:New York] 1991 (p. 114-5)

This may explain the term "sub", but I must say that everywhere around that area, they are called Grinders whether hot, cold, or whatever the ingredients. (i.e. "Could I have a tuna grinder to go, please?")

The perfect New London lunch for me was a "regular grinder", a glass of fountain pepsi, and some Wise potato chips.

Chiefley

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Michael Hoffman)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 13:28:38 GMT

I make great subs here in Ohio, myself. And, except for the bread, which can't be found in central Ohio, they're as good as any I grew up eating in the New Haven area In fact, if Charlie Marchitto's mother saw one of my sandwiches (again, except for the bread) she'd think she'd made it herself. Mrs. Marchitto made the subs at their grocery store on Dixwell Avenue in Hamden. They cost a quarter, each made on a half loaf of Italian bread. One of those, a lemon Frisbie pie, and a Pepsi or X-Tra Cola ended up costng a grand total of 35-cents.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Chiefley)

Mon, 29 Aug 2005 12:52:53 GMT

I was born and raised in New London, CT and the surrounding area. Sub sandwiches are always called Grinders southeastern CT, and parts of Rhode Island.

I have always heard the story behind the sandwich and the name as follows: A New London shop (perhaps Capaldos Market) made sandwiches and sold them from a cart at the entrance to the Electric Boat Shipyard in Groton (across the Thames River from New London) during WWII. The sandwiches were a favorite with the welders and grinders (the guys who grind the weld down smooth), and were usually called "Grinder's Sandwiches", later shortened to Grinders.

The Grinder was derived from an Italian sandwich called a Neopolitan, and adapted for local ingredients. I grew up on Grinders and ever since moving away from that area, I have lamented the fact that Subs, Hoagies, etc are not really the same. Although invented by an Italian, its the Greek pizza shops that make the best Grinders. The quintessential Grinder can be had at Ocean Avenue Pizza, if anyone is interested.

The most striking difference between Grinders and all the rest of them is the special bread and the copious amounts of olive oil. Its not a grinder unless olive oil is running out of the butcher paper they are wrapped in and darkening the paper bag you are carrying them in.

Another aspect to the story is that after WWII, all the submariners from the Submarine Base in Groton went back to their home towns across the country and spread the idea of these sandwiches across the country. Hence the name Submariner's Sandwiches or Subs. I am not sure if I believe this, but I do believe the first part of the story.

New London residents will insist that all of these sandwiches are variations on the original grinder, but I am more inclined to believe that the numerous Italian immigrants who opened markets and sandwich shops all along the east coast were just recreating popular sandwiches from the old country. I have had sandwiches in Italy and its easy the Italian roots in the Grinder, what with the olive oil dripping out all over the place.

I have finally been able to duplicate the classic "Regular Grinder" out here in Ohio and if anyone is interested, I can post how I make them. People here rave about them and wonder why all subs are not made this way.

Chiefley

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (BT)

Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:08:27 GMT

In 50's/60's Maryland, they were "submarines" or "subs". One of my favorite places to get one was "Chris's Sub Base" on the harbor square in Annapolis. At college in Baltimore they usually came from Harry Little's but sometimes the "B & M Sub Shop". Nearer to home there was a suberb but nameless (because I can't recall the name) place on University Blvd in Wheaton that made them.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (bxfinest)

Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:33:19 GMT

Growing up in NYC I never heard the term "wedge" used as a long sandwich. In the city they were and still are called heroes. From delis to bodegas they are always advertised as heroes. The term WEDGE is not NYC. Maybe upstate in Westchester and New England but not the 5 boroughs.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Top)

Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:56:47 GMT

Indeed.
I hail from northern Westchester, and wedges are what we called subs. I recall the term in use as far south as Yonkers and as far north as Patterson and Carmel, in Putnam county.
I don't recall what they were called just over the CT. line in Ridgefield, as I always had pizza there (Roma on Main St, Venice in the Copps Hill shopping center).
Top

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Gizmolito)

Mon, 08 Aug 2005 20:25:35 GMT

Looks like the sandwich name WEDGE does indeed exist, since people vouch for it. Sounds like the results of the poll are in, so deal with it.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (johns72604)

Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:49:38 GMT

I grew up in the Bronx and we called them wedges and heros. But when I went to school upstate, nobody knew what i was talking about when i refered to my favorite thing to eat as a wedge.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (caratzas)

Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:47:47 GMT

quote:

I went to SUNY Stony Brook 20 years ago. There and everywhere else on Long Island they were called "Heros" Never heard of a wedge until I got into the Road Food thing 15 years ago.

Then it's me being prematurely senile. There was certainly no shortage of Westchesterites in Kelly E at the time so it's possible we used the term among ourselves and translated to Long Island-ese when we ordered out. A quick survey of LI Pizzeria menus on line failed to turn up the term "wedge" for sandwiches so that adds weight to the faulty memory theory.

I did a Google search on "meatball wedge" today to see if the term's extent has spread or shrunk since the last time I looked into it a couple of years ago. I only went about 10 pages in so this research is by no means comprehensive.

Overall, use of the term "wedge" seems to be limited primarily to Westchester, Putnam and Dutchess Counties upstate as well as the Bronx and Manhattan. A web page welcoming The Onion's staff relocating to Manhattan mentions the term: http://www.disobey.com/ghostsites/netslaves/comments/980260490.shtml There appears to be limited use in Orange County, NY, too -- I wonder if that has anything to do with that area's continuing influx of downstate natives. This tentative finding doesn't seem too far off from the consensus reached by the illustrious readership of fark.com (they seem to think it's a Westchester-only term, but Farkers seem to be generally younger and therefore possibly not be as worldly as we cosmopolitan Roadfooders ): http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=460259

Some interesting findings (well, if you're into that sort of thing, anyway):

1) There's a place in State College, PA (The Gingerbread Man) that sells something they call "wedges," but they're sandwich fillings baked in a shell ala calzones/strombolis as opposed a hero-style sandwich. That's a first encounter with that use of the term for me -- I wonder what the story is there: http://gmanstatecollege.com/menu/wedges.asp

2) One of my local places, Vazzy's in Stratford CT, sells "wedges" but not the far-more-typical-for-this-area "grinders." Very unusual and unexpected. Also Manero's in Greenwich, Vinny's in Stamford and a couple of places in Norwalk sell "wedges" but they're on the other side of Bridgeport and therefore spiritually closer to NY.

3) When I was growing up in Northern Westchester, the term wasn't limited to hot sandwiches and that appears to still be the case there: (http://www.ginoscarousel.com/lunch.htm); however, my quick survey seems to indicate the use of the term "wedge" outside the NY area is limited to Italian deli-style hot subs, (e.g., chicken parm, meatballs, sausage & peppers, etc.) and mostly used by places portraying themselves as "NY-Style" pizza joints. For example:

Richie B.'s in Portland, OR sells "meatball wedges" but their cold combo sandwich is called an "Italian Sub." http://www.wweek.com/html/dish042600.html They position themselves as a NY-and-Philadelphia-style pizzeria/cheesesteak place.

Giuseppe's Italian Dining in Marlow, OK also sells (sold?) hot "wedges" but cold "submarines" (original link is dead -- link to Google cache: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:AkZlPAjEXDoJ:giuseppesitaliandining.onsmartpages.com/menu1/+NYC+%22meatball+wedge%22&hl=en&start=21) The ownership team (husband and wife?) included a New York native: http://www.55-57chevys.com/coccc/dash137.html

Casa Maya in Norwalk, CT is a Mexican-style deli that seems to sell "wedges" (not 100% sure as I got this from a published review and the term "wedge" might be the reviewer's.) Their "Jackie Gleason" wedge is an Italian-style meatball sandwich with sauteed peppers (a twist there) that seems to have little to do with traditional Mexican fare.http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/gbase/Dining/content.html?oid=oid:112946

4) School Menus -- a lot of them are on line and seem to be a good source for regional food terms. I only two school menus using the term "wedge" west of the Hudson (Highland Falls, Wallkill) and nothing further north than Dutchess County. This may be a bad time of the year to be looking for school menu references, though, as schools are on summer recess. Also the fact that a "wedge" tends to be a big sandwich might mean it's less likely to show up on menus for kids. Lots of schools all over the country list a "Pizza Wedge" on their menu but it appears to be another term for what New Yorkers refer to as a "slice."

5) The term may be falling out of favor in the city -- I didn't see as many NYC references as I recall a few years ago when I last looked into this. Perhaps this has something to do with the continuing influx of non-Italians and non-Greeks into the NY Pizza business (Albanians come to mind as the biggest newer ethnic group getting into NY Pizza these days but there may be others.)

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Michael Hoffman)

Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:53:49 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by Davydd

Walleye is the designated state fish in Minnesota and it goes by that name. The problem with the Pickerel name is the uninitiated shorten it to Pike which is an entirely different species as in the Northern Pike, another popular game fish here in Minnesota. Here, we call it Canadian Walleye if it comes from Canada. I'm still willing to bet you are getting Zander if your fish is imported from out of state because restaurants are fast and loose with the definition and Zander probably falls under the Pickerel species because in the UK Pike and Zander are the same. Actually you probably could not tell the difference in a taste test.

Actually, walleye is commonly, and incorrectly, referrred to as walleyed pike or walleye pike over much of the country, especially in the northeast. The various pickerel species are, in fact, related to the Northern pike as they are members of the Esox family, as is the muskellunge.

By the way, when it comes to being able to tell the difference between walleye and zander I can, indeed, tell the difference in taste, and I've made some pretty good money over the years proving it.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (seafarer john)

Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:35:30 GMT

The Hog Island shipyards had their heyday during WW1. The US government ,in order to provide more shipping contracted for a simple inexpensive design of cargo ship which became known as a "Hog Islander" . I dont know how many were ever built, but I was a crewmember on one of the few that survived WW2, in about 1950. It was "Del Norte" (launched 1919) operated by South Atlantic Shipping. We loaded sugar in Caibarrien (sp?) Cuba and discharged our cargo at the Jack Frost plant in Yonkers, NY. I think she was laid up and scrapped shortly after that trip.

Growing up in Poughkeepsie (1930-40s) I never heard of wedges, hoagies, subs, torpedos, grinders, heroes or any other name for a coldcut sandwich on crusty Italian bread. I was first introduced to Grinders in the Madison CT area in about 1944- it was love at first sight. After that it was possible to go to Daleo's Deli in Poughkeepsie and get an "Italian Sandwich" which was very much like the Connecticut grinder - I think they had been making them forever in the Italian neighborhood of Poughkeepsie, but the rest of us didn't know about it. As far as I can recall the sandwich had no name - it was merely "Italian".

By the late 50s, if memory serves, something called a "wedge" was appearing - it was a roughly triangular or trapezoid shaped section of a Hot Meatball or Hot Sausage sandwich. I always thought the term differentiated between a whole hot meatball sandwich and a portion of the sandwich.

To this day, for me, a "Grinder" or a "Sub" or a "Hero" is made with cold cuts, while anything else is a "Hot sandwich". Sometimes I'll walk into a place and order a "Hot Meatball Sandwich" and the waitperson will say, "You want a "Hot Sub", and I'll say, "No, I want a Hot Meatball". It is about then that I realize I'm going to get my meatballs on a soggy roll, not the crusty bread that stands up to the red sauce. And, I hate it that i have to specify "oil and vinegar" - NO MAYONNAISE- whereever I go.

Cheers, John

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (wanderingjew)

Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:57:17 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by caratzas

We always called 'em wedges in Northern Westchester Co., NY where I grew up. Later I moved down to the Port Chester area and they were still called wedges but if you walked over the short bridge spanning the Byram River into Connecticut they mysteriously transformed to grinders. No functional difference (bread, filling or otherwise) between the two.

I recall them being referred to as wedges at SUNY Stony Brook on Long Island when I was there 20 years ago, but that might be my memory playing tricks on me. I do know I was bored a few years ago and did a Google search on "Chicken Parmagiana Wedge" to get a handle on the extent of the term's use. I remember getting hits back from Long Island, the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens and Upstate NY as far as the Poughkeepsie area. I don't remember if there were any hits from New Jersey or Rockland County. There was a hit from a pizzeria in the Buffalo area, but they were positioning themselves as a "Bronx-style" pizza joint so it looks like they were using the term to be less Buffalonian and more Bronxy.

If people tell you that a different bread is used for a wedge versus a sub it's only because the bread is just better in the NY area -- more Italian-style; more body and with a crust with a bit of a "tooth," not squishy with a pale crust like it they make it in the heartland (yuck!) Even if the only bread available in Westchester was the spongy rolls that pass for bread here in Eastern Fairfield County, CT, the sandwiches there would still be called wedges.

I went to SUNY Stony Brook 20 years ago. There and everywhere else on Long Island they were called "Heros" Never heard of a wedge until I got into the Road Food thing 15 years ago.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (caratzas)

Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:04:38 GMT

We always called 'em wedges in Northern Westchester Co., NY where I grew up. Later I moved down to the Port Chester area and they were still called wedges but if you walked over the short bridge spanning the Byram River into Connecticut they mysteriously transformed to grinders. No functional difference (bread, filling or otherwise) between the two.

I recall them being referred to as wedges at SUNY Stony Brook on Long Island when I was there 20 years ago, but that might be my memory playing tricks on me. I do know I was bored a few years ago and did a Google search on "Chicken Parmagiana Wedge" to get a handle on the extent of the term's use. I remember getting hits back from Long Island, the Bronx, Manhattan and Queens and Upstate NY as far as the Poughkeepsie area. I don't remember if there were any hits from New Jersey or Rockland County. There was a hit from a pizzeria in the Buffalo area, but they were positioning themselves as a "Bronx-style" pizza joint so it looks like they were using the term to be less Buffalonian and more Bronxy.

If people tell you that a different bread is used for a wedge versus a sub it's only because the bread is just better in the NY area -- more Italian-style; more body and with a crust with a bit of a "tooth," not squishy with a pale crust like it they make it in the heartland (yuck!) Even if the only bread available in Westchester was the spongy rolls that pass for bread here in Eastern Fairfield County, CT, the sandwiches there would still be called wedges.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Theedge)

Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:43:01 GMT

Here is what I call "Theedgewich"...Note I put the onions, pickles, lettuce between slices of meat and cheese rather than on top, this holds everything in place. I was thinking, do places ever serve dip with chips? I would if I owned a shop. Mine is just cream cheese, sour cream a squirt of catsup and french onion soup mix.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Davydd)

Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:26:15 GMT

Back on subject. I notice more and more the word "submarine"{ is seldom used but the name "Subs" is. Quiznos for one uses the subs term.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Davydd)

Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:24:28 GMT

Walleye is the designated state fish in Minnesota and it goes by that name. The problem with the Pickerel name is the uninitiated shorten it to Pike which is an entirely different species as in the Northern Pike, another popular game fish here in Minnesota. Here, we call it Canadian Walleye if it comes from Canada. I'm still willing to bet you are getting Zander if your fish is imported from out of state because restaurants are fast and loose with the definition and Zander probably falls under the Pickerel species because in the UK Pike and Zander are the same. Actually you probably could not tell the difference in a taste test.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Michael Hoffman)

Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:50:52 GMT

In Ohio what you will see most often on menus is pickerel. That's what they call walleye in Canada, and Canada is where the walleye sold in Ohio comes from. Walleye is a gamefish in Ohio and cannot be sold or fished commercially.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Davydd)

Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:43:03 GMT

What I meant that any fish is generally longer than wide so a hoagie bun is appropriate. In Minnesota we get true walleye though most actually come from Canada where they are fished commercially except around the lake resort areas. Elsewhere I bet most people are getting European Zander, a close cousin to walleye. This little ugly secret was discovered last year here in Minnesota. I haven't heard if other states have gotten upset with this fact. You would not dare try to pass off Zander as walleye in Minnesota now. The walleye sandwich is ubiquitous to just about every bar/grill and sports bar in Minnesota. Having gone to college in Ohio and married to a Bay Village native on Lake Erie I couldn't say the same for Ohio. I rarely see them on menus outside of Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Michael Hoffman)

Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:00:17 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by Davydd

Where I grew up in Indianapolis I only knew them as submarine sandwiches. I always thought they were called that because they resembled a submarine. Here in Minneapolis when you buy a long bun in a grocery they call it a hoagie bun. When you get a sandwich like a walleye sandwich they describe it as served on a hoagie bun to handle the long narrow fish.

You ought to try walleye fishing on Lake Erie. We don't get long narrow ones. The ones we catch are long wide ones.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Davydd)

Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:06:53 GMT

Where I grew up in Indianapolis I only knew them as submarine sandwiches. I always thought they were called that because they resembled a submarine. Here in Minneapolis when you buy a long bun in a grocery they call it a hoagie bun. When you get a sandwich like a walleye sandwich they describe it as served on a hoagie bun to handle the long narrow fish.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (CoastFan)

Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:21:23 GMT

Quote:

Here's the story: There was a shipyard on HOG ISLAND, which is near Philly, and the workers were known as Hoggies. Their sandwiches of cold cuts on Italian loaves also became known as Hoggies. The spelling changed to Hoagies - and that is why the submarine type sandwich in the Philly area is called that.
...........................................................................................................
CheezWit's account is the most widely accepted. The navy shipyard employed a lot of 1st and 2nd generation workers of Italian decent, who took their lunches with them, consisting of cold cuts on an Italian bread roll. The sandwhiches were called "hog island specials" or "hoggies". Over time, "hoggies" was corrupted into "hoagies".

Another less popular story is that there were street vendors during the early part of the 20th century, called "hokey pokey" men, who sold sandwiches made of Italian style cold cuts on Italian rolls. Over time, the sandwiches sold by these hokey pokey men became known as "hoagies".

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (rjb)

Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:53:38 GMT

Wedge is the term used in northern Westchester County NY (or at least parts thereof), not New York City. Don't see it much anymore.

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (Sundancer7)

Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:38:06 GMT

Thanks Cheesewit for the explanation of why a hoagie is called a hoagie. I had never given it a thought until you explained it. All names have a root.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

RE: Hoagie/Grinder or Submarine (CheeseWit)

Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:33:26 GMT

Here's the story: There was a shipyard on HOG ISLAND, which is near Philly, and the workers were known as Hoggies. Their sandwiches of cold cuts on Italian loaves also became known as Hoggies. The spelling changed to Hoagies - and that is why the submarine type sandwich in the Philly area is called that.

quote:
Originally posted by dreamzpainter

I agree with Cheesewit, hoagie and sub are interchangable in the phila/so.jersey area. The story goes something like way back when, when south phila was all shipyards the workers were know as hogs or hoags (reason unknown) the large sandwichs they would carrie for lunch soon came to be known as Hoagies and with the similarity to submarines the sandwich gained a 2nd nickname with the smaller like shaped rolls being called torpedos. A true hoagie like a cheesesteak is next to impossible to find outside its base area (150-200miles from Phila.PA) Like an oyster po'boy or a muffalotta(sp)from New Orleans. Locally (NE, Fl.)a grinder is either turkey or ham, cheese, lettuce, tomato and onion in half a pita