Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (Foodbme)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:05:33 GMT

John Fox

My top five beef dogs would be the 5 to a lb "Syd's" natural casing dog from Best Provisions, the 8 to a lb natural casing Usinger's Angus beef dog, Sabrett natural casing 10/1 which is served at Papaya King and Gray's, the 8/1 Hatfield deli beef frank served at Rahway Grill, Curbside Cafe, Mazzi Dogz, and hopefully Citizens Bank Park, and the 8/1 natural casing Boars Head beef dog available in many supermarkets.

I also like Nathan's, Hebrew National, Pearl (from Boston), Romanian Kosher and Vienna from Chicago, and Dietz and Watson from Philly.

THANX JOHN!
The one's we have access to in PHX would be:
Usingers All Beef 8#
Sabretts, (not sure about Natural Casing but have skinless) 10#
Boars Head Natural Casing 8#

Also have Nathan's, Hebrew National, Vienna and D & W. So I guess we're not a total Tube Steak Wasteland!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:47:30 GMT

ScreenBear

If they make the change and the creek don't rise, I'd like to take the ride...preferably when they take on the Cubs.

The Bear

I'll take the ride with you. Dogs on me.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:43:15 GMT

My top five beef dogs would be the 5 to a lb "Syd's" natural casing dog from Best Provisions, the 8 to a lb natural casing Usinger's Angus beef dog, Sabrett natural casing 10/1 which is served at Papaya King and Gray's, the 8/1 Hatfield deli beef frank served at Rahway Grill, Curbside Cafe, Mazzi Dogz, and hopefully Citizens Bank Park, and the 8/1 natural casing Boars Head beef dog available in many supermarkets.

I also like Nathan's, Hebrew National, Pearl (from Boston), Romanian Kosher and Vienna from Chicago, and Dietz and Watson from Philly.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (ScreenBear)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 19:37:53 GMT

If they make the change and the creek don't rise, I'd like to take the ride...preferably when they take on the Cubs.

The Bear

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (Foodbme)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:13:51 GMT

John Fox

I think the reason is that they have a long standing business relationship with Hatfield. Perhaps they are a long time sponsor as well. Dietz and Watson franks are better in my opinion than Hatfield's. With a big exception. Hatfield's deli beef frank is better than D&W and one of the best beef franks in the country. It's the favorite of most of the attendees on the last New Jersey Hot Dog Tour. It's also the favorite of my wife and son who are not big hot dog eaters. And in my top 5.

John,
Please list your "Top Five!"

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (CheeseWit)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:32:27 GMT

John, this is exciting news about them looking at the Hatfield deli beef frank. I'll buy the cheesesteaks when this comes together.
Your influence reaches down into the Phila region!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Fri, 04 Jun 2010 06:14:37 GMT

I think the reason is that they have a long standing business relationship with Hatfield. Perhaps they are a long time sponsor as well. Dietz and Watson franks are better in my opinion than Hatfield's. With a big exception. Hatfield's deli beef frank is better than D&W and one of the best beef franks in the country. It's the favorite of most of the attendees on the last New Jersey Hot Dog Tour. It's also the favorite of my wife and son who are not big hot dog eaters. And in my top 5.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (joerogo)

Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:52:30 GMT

Way to go John! Nice to know that they are thinking about quality.

I can't understand why they wouldn't choose Dietz & Watson as their official hot dog. I think Philly Fans would give them a standing O!!!!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Thu, 03 Jun 2010 20:14:44 GMT

Today I received an e-mail from the manager of Concession Development for the Phillies. He is the day- to- day point person with their concessionaire as well as being responsible for developing new ideas and concepts. I was told that he, as well as Aramark and the chefs at CBP will be looking into the Hatfield deli beef frank. They are interested in it and will get back in touch with me.

This dog would be a big improvement over the current one and I believe it would be well received by Phillies fans. Heck, it might be enough for me to take the drive down there. Hot dogs at the game, cheesesteaks afterwards.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (Foodbme)

Mon, 31 May 2010 13:43:50 GMT

michaelcarraher

Sorry, gang. If you want good dogs at a ballgame, go to Reading. The R-Phils have Berks hot dogs, cooked Noo-Yawk style on a griddle. $1.75 except Sunday. $1.00 on Sunday.

Minor League baseball is a lot more fun experience and admission is about the same as going to a movie.

Unless you all like rip-off prices and having to deal with all the mouth-breathers in South Philly.

I agree with youze. Minor League Baseball is 5 times more totally enjoyable than Major League Ball. The Minor Leagues are the TRUE NATIONAL PASTIME as baseball was meant to be.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (michaelcarraher)

Mon, 31 May 2010 12:27:22 GMT

Sorry, gang. If you want good dogs at a ballgame, go to Reading. The R-Phils have Berks hot dogs, cooked Noo-Yawk style on a griddle. $1.75 except Sunday. $1.00 on Sunday.

Minor League baseball is a lot more fun experience and admission is about the same as going to a movie.

Unless you all like rip-off prices and having to deal with all the mouth-breathers in South Philly.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Mon, 31 May 2010 07:44:28 GMT

Below is a link I found to a hot dog truck in New Jersey that uses the Hatfield deli beef frank. It's the Curbside Cafe run by two ex East Orange cops. In fact, the link is taken from their website. Included is part of a review I wrote about the six places we visited that day for the Star Ledger's Munchmobile. The theme was hot dog establishments less than 5 years old. The 2 best were Curbside Cafe and Mazzi Dogz. Both use the premium Hatfield dog. Check out the first video where the dog is shown and discussed.

http://www.eopd.com/curbsidecafe.html

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Thu, 13 May 2010 20:22:42 GMT

I loved Tabatchnik's. Not only the hot dogs but their Sloppy Joes and other sandwiches. A very good kosher dog from Empire National (not Empire Kosher), 1/3 pound, grilled, and $2.95.

http://www.empirenational.info/

Marc Bruno sent me a follow up message where he confirmed that the 5/1 natural casing dog is the same recipe as the skinless 6/1 dog that is the South Philly dog. He also mentioned that Aramark will continue to explore other options for hot dogs.

"We'll continue to research and test different options with our culinary development team and I'll let you know if a change to the dog arises in the future."

Let me suggest to anyone affiliated with any hot dog establishment in Pennsylvania, New York, or New Jersey that the Hatfield deli beef frank is a top quality frank with a unique flavor. There are quite a few hot dog carts and trucks in Central and North Jersey serving this particular dog. And a few brick and mortar places as well. The Rahway Grill, Mazzi Dogs, and Curbside Cafe are 3 of the most popular.

Hopefully Philly will get their own. Maybe even Citizens Bank Park some day.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (johnlockedema)

Tue, 11 May 2010 20:07:44 GMT

John Fox

While dogs made to a certain size may be exclusive to a client, store, restaurant, etc. more often than not they are made to the same recipe. I've spoken to distributors as well as people who work for companies producing hot dogs. Empire National (not the Empire that makes turkeys or chickens) has one recipe. But they make different sizes and some with a collagen casing. They made a special dog for Tabatchnik's in Union that was 1/3 lb and had a casing. When Tabatchnik's closed, Empire discontinued this dog. But it was the same recipe as their others.

A distributor told me that the better beef dog from Hatfield is only made for the New York/New Jersey market to compete with Sabrett. I know of 4 recipes produced by Hatfield. This one (excellent), an all beef (Phillies frank, poor quality) a beef/pork (also was sold at the Vet; pretty bad), and a beef and pork frank with turkey and/or chicken.I won't even try this one.

I would bet that the beef dog to be served at Citizen Bank Park, while perhaps being a different size, and not sold retail, is the same recipe mediocre dog that has been sold there and in the supermarkets. If so, then to use this dog and dress it up with fancy toppings while creating a marketing blitz, to me is like putting lipstick on a pig.

That Tabatchnick dog was enormous. Miss their pickles as well; the guy with the mustache would always would fill my quarts then fill with the brine, saying that I had to drink the juice.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (CheeseWit)

Tue, 11 May 2010 19:58:19 GMT

John,
I think I should also point out that Marc Bruno is a member of the Roadfood Team and has been a part of it since the beginning (you can click on Meet The Roadfood Team on the homepage of this site).

I had hoped he'd jump in on this thread - he chose to contact a few of us directly.

John, your insight and hot dog knowledge always add to the quality of the discussions here.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Tue, 11 May 2010 19:47:36 GMT

Last Saturday I received a message from Marc Bruno of Aramark. He mentioned that the competition for the new Phillies dog was a huge hit and that the South Philly dog sells out every night. He also said that the Hatfield dog is the official dog at Citizens Bank Park. Marc appreciates the questions and comments from those of us on this forum

I then asked why Aramark didn't upgrade to the better frank and where the 2 stands are that serve the natural casing frank. The natural casing frank wasn't used for the new South Philly dog because when it was split and grilled the hot dog became chewy and lost it's snap. CBP does offer the Hatfields 5 to 1 Natural Casing Hot Dogs at two locations - both are Hatfields portable carts that are on the main concourse by Ashburn Alley, next to sections 145 and 148.

I thanked Mark for his reply and asked him if the 5/1 natural casing frank is the special recipe "New York style" or "deli style" that I'm familiar with, which is the quality dog I suggested they switch to. Or if it was the same recipe that is already being sold. He did not get back to me yet.

I did speak with someone from Hatfield today. What I found out is that the better dog is called the "deli beef dog". This is the one available at Restaurant Depot, the Rahway Grill, and several other hot dog establishments in New Jersey and New York. Unfortunately it is NOT served at CBP. This frank was sold in 2 different sizes; 8/1 and 12/1. Hatfield has discontinued the 12/1 and now make it in 6/1 as well as 8/1. It is considered a food service frank and is not sold to retail markets. It is available through Hatfield directly, Restaurant Depot, and other food distributors. The Phillies could serve this frank if they choose.

It is one of the best beef franks I've tasted; rich, beefy, and smoky. By far the best frank produced by Hatfield. Hopefully they will add it. But it can be obtained throughout Pennsylvania.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:17:24 GMT

Make sure that you ask if the dog is all beef and has a casing. Only then should you order one. And I'm sure that if it's the better dog and not the same old Philly frank in a casing, you will taste a big difference.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (CheeseWit)

Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:12:34 GMT

Thanks John. I'll be at the park Saturday night and will look for the carts.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:07:20 GMT

After making a number of phone calls to Aramark, I was finally put through to someone who is involved with Concessions. I spoke with a David Litman. I told him about our discussion here and asked him why he didn't use the better Hatfield dog. He replied that they sampled a number of Hatfield dogs including the natural casing beef frank that I consider head and shoulders above their other dogs. It was determined by them that this particular dog didn't go well with the bread and that the regular beef frank went better with the toppings. I didn't get a chance to have him go into detail as he was pressed for time and I missed his earlier call.

He did say that they thought a skinless dog went better with the toppings offerred. Again, I'm not sure that I understand, except to say that I prefer a skinless dog with an Italian Hot Dog because there is so much other stuff going on that the snap sort of interferes with the synergy. If that makes any sense. But I stressed that many people feel the actual frankfurter is more important than the toppings and gave examples of the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and other teams upgrading their brand of hot dog. He was aware of this; especially the Red Sox changing suppliers.

I was informed that the Aramark team was more concerned with the toppings than the actual frank. Mr. Litman was very cordial, and when I told him that Aramark has it backwards, he said that he could understand how people who are true hot dog enthusiasts could feel that way, but that most people don't. I wanted to bring up the point that Foodbme did, that if they made the effort to introduce a quality dog, they could (and no doubt would) change people's perceptions since they would have to try the better dog if it was the only one offered. I will mention this next time I speak with him.

There may be good news. Mr. Litman told me that there are 2 Hatfield Carts at Citizens Bank Park that serve a natural casing Hatfield beef frank. The big question is, are these the premium Hatfield beef dogs that are available in N.J., or is it the same lousy Philly frank put in a casing? Mr. Litman said he would check with Hatfield and get back to me. I also requested that he find out the locations of these two carts. It was at this point that he had to end our conversation. It was right at the time when I wanted to bring up the subject of changing people's perceptions by offering the better dog.

I'm glad that I was able to speak to someone at Aramark and will relay any further info.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (acer2x)

Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:59:51 GMT

Here's a prior thread on Levis'

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Levis-Hotdogs-from-Philly-m250212.aspx

The used their own recipe for their dogs. I don't know who made them.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (Foodbme)

Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:28:05 GMT

David_NYC

If consumers all start demanding a high quality hot dog, what are they going to do with all that fat and mystery meat that finds it ways into hot dogs?

Haven't you heard the old Adage -" You can do something with every part of a Hog except the squeal!"
the fat winds up as lard and in dog food. The skin = Pork Rinds!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (David_NYC)

Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:25:56 GMT

Some frankfurter manufacturers may not be interested in making a better quality product, especially those with their own slaughtering operations. If consumers all start demanding a high quality hot dog, what are they going to do with all that fat and mystery meat that finds it ways into hot dogs?

Besides Conagra's Hebrew National, can anyone think of any producer of quality hot dogs discussed here on RF who also has a slaughter operation? (Hatfield has a pork slaughtering operation, don't know where they get their beef and poultry from.)

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (hkrall)

Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:49:17 GMT

You can't convince me in a million years that patrons won't appreciate and buy a QUALITY dog. Hatfield, Aramark and the Philly's are satisfied with the status quo. As long as the Beer's cold, who cares. Nothing will change until the fans rebel. But they won't.

I think the patrons would love a quality dog! I just don't see Aramark making that change, but if John talks them into it I'll buy you all a hot dog.

Believe it or not, the new dogs are a big improvement on the standard Phillies dogs which are wrapped in foil ahead of time and sit there for hours, lukewarm with a smashed bun.

I don't think the fans will rebel, because even though Philly has a little bit of a hot dog history, the majority of people here aren't passionate about hot dogs the way they are about other things.

If Aramark started serving cheesesteaks with Swiss cheese on baguette you would have people ripping the seats out of the stands and throwing them onto the field, and flipping over cars in the parking lot!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (hkrall)

Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:38:57 GMT

acer-
I always wondered what brand of hot dog Levis' used, nice piece of history there!

Both Texas Weiner places are great, and serve the dogs split & grilled, on short, double wide rolls.. Tony Luke's also does the split & grilled and they are all pretty good, none of them natural casing or anything though, but I like them.

Unfortunately Blue & Green and Papaya King are closed.

Moe's is good, they do the pepper hash, jumbo deitz & watson (maybe 4/lb?) dogs on big rolls, mostly steamed but they will also deep fry them.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (acer2x)

Sat, 10 Apr 2010 09:10:42 GMT

I'll add Texas Weiners to the Philly hot dog scene. There was one in Center City on 13th Street and one in South Philly.

http://www.hollyeats.com/APJTexasWeiners.htm

http://www.hollyeats.com/TexasWeiner.htm

Never been here:

http://www.hollyeats.com/BlueInGreen.htm

or here:
http://www.hollyeats.com/JohnsDoggieShop.htm
http://www.hollyeats.com/ConeyIslandJoes.htm
http://www.hollyeats.com/JohnnysHots.htm
or here but I'm going soon:
http://www.hollyeats.com/MoesHotDogs.htm

http://www.hollyeats.com/NicksCharcoalPit.htm

There's even a Papaya King here now. Go figure:

http://www.hollyeats.com/PapayaKing.htm

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (acer2x)

Fri, 09 Apr 2010 23:20:05 GMT

Before the growth of the cheesesteak culture in Philly, there was a strong hot dog presence. Levis' and Lenny's were institutions and there were 2 kosher hot dog/knockwurst producers- Formost and Samuel Sandler. My father used to take me to a place on Roosevelt Blvd near Rhawn Street-Vic's-that looked a little like Pink's in LA. I think a quality beef dog would do well in town but would never surpass the cheesesteak. As it is, I get Hebrew National and Nathan's products at the local markets.

I never liked Jimmy John's in Delaware County. Johnnie's Dog House makes a decent Chicago Dog but I don't know what brand they use.

http://www.hollyeats.com/JohnniesDogHouse.htm

Lenny's is still around:

http://www.hollyeats.com/Lennys.htm

So is Jimmy John's:

http://www.hollyeats.com/JimmyJohns.htm

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (Foodbme)

Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:51:20 GMT

John Fox

Foodbme

hkrall

I think with food service on that scale it really comes down to demand, and there is no demand for better quality hot dogs in philadelphia, aside from a few writers and enthusiasts.

Most people in Philly aren't even aware that there are hot dogs out there that taste any different from oscar mayer / ball park / hatfield / etc, and nobody seems willing to gamble on doing it differently.

The only way to change that is for someone to open up a new hot dog place here that uses great quality dogs and does it right; something along the line of Crif Dogs (fast, open late, both traditional and a few "wacky" variations) would probably make tons of money with the right location - south street, old city, even across the street from Pat's & Geno's..

You make a whole bunch of Generalizations with no basis in fact. How do you know there's no demand for better quality Hot Dogs? How do you know that no one is willing to gamble on doing it differently? How do you know that the ONLY way to change the status quo is by opening a Hot Dog Stand with quality dogs.?

IMO, One Hot Dog Stand isn't going to change anything in a city as large as Philly. It would take MANY years to do that. Pat's & Genos took many years to develop their brands.
IMO, If one or two large venues such as a Baseball of Football Stadium would start selling a PROPERLY PROMOTED QUALITY HOT DOG to thousands of people per game, they could change the perceptions of thousands of people very quickly and that would change the demands of consumers and influence supermarkets to carry the product. It's called 'Push Marketing."

It seems like the "Push Marketing" worked for the Red Sox. I know that there is more of a "hot dog culture" in New York and New Jersey than Philly. But for years they offered lousy dogs at Yankee and Shea Stadiums. And people bought them. Ditto for lousy beer. Well, they upgraded both the beer and the hot dogs. And both are doing well and appreciated by people who may not have bought these products on their own. The same could happen in Philly.

Thank you John!
I've been involved in Marketing for over 40 years. Some people just don't "Get It". You Obviously Do!
There are several ways to market a new Hot Dog product. You can open a shop/cart and hope to change the world in 30-40 years, OR you can align yourself with a sizable Hot Dog manufacturer, get them to create a unique, QUALITY recipe for you OR give you a Quality Dog from their existing product line OR find another Vendor. Hot Dogs are sold in the MILLIONS all over the country, and especially in Ballparks. You can't convince me in a million years that patrons won't appreciate and buy a QUALITY dog. Hatfield, Aramark and the Philly's are satisfied with the status quo. As long as the Beer's cold, who cares. Nothing will change until the fans rebel. But they won't. So, you're stuck with what you've got. I wonder how much Hatfield has to kick back to the Phillys & Aramark!!

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:10:34 GMT

Foodbme

hkrall

I think with food service on that scale it really comes down to demand, and there is no demand for better quality hot dogs in philadelphia, aside from a few writers and enthusiasts.

Most people in Philly aren't even aware that there are hot dogs out there that taste any different from oscar mayer / ball park / hatfield / etc, and nobody seems willing to gamble on doing it differently.

The only way to change that is for someone to open up a new hot dog place here that uses great quality dogs and does it right; something along the line of Crif Dogs (fast, open late, both traditional and a few "wacky" variations) would probably make tons of money with the right location - south street, old city, even across the street from Pat's & Geno's..

You make a whole bunch of Generalizations with no basis in fact. How do you know there's no demand for better quality Hot Dogs? How do you know that no one is willing to gamble on doing it differently? How do you know that the ONLY way to change the status quo is by opening a Hot Dog Stand with quality dogs.?

IMO, One Hot Dog Stand isn't going to change anything in a city as large as Philly. It would take MANY years to do that. Pat's & Genos took many years to develop their brands.
IMO, If one or two large venues such as a Baseball of Football Stadium would start selling a PROPERLY PROMOTED QUALITY HOT DOG to thousands of people per game, they could change the perceptions of thousands of people very quickly and that would change the demands of consumers and influence supermarkets to carry the product. It's called 'Push Marketing."

It seems like the "Push Marketing" worked for the Red Sox. I know that there is more of a "hot dog culture" in New York and New Jersey than Philly. But for years they offered lousy dogs at Yankee and Shea Stadiums. And people bought them. Ditto for lousy beer. Well, they upgraded both the beer and the hot dogs. And both are doing well and appreciated by people who may not have bought these products on their own. The same could happen in Philly.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (John Fox)

Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:00:29 GMT

Philadelphia doesn't eat it because they don't have access to it. And they don't have access to it because Hatfield doesn't make it available to them. I was told by a distributor that the dog was made to compete with Sabrett. But that doesn't mean Pennsylvania people won't like this dog.

People in Boston for years were happy with their Fenway Franks. It was a cheap mediocre dog. Someone decided to upgrade the Fenway frank despite its popularity. Kayem makes them now. And the response has been great. Red Sox fans love the new Fenway frank! And maybe Philly fans would like a better dog also. I think it would be worth a shot.

Re:Vote for Philly's new signature hot dog (CheeseWit)

Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:59:23 GMT

Hey Hawk, on a side note, great job on your illustration of your hot dog of the week this week (and every week for that matter)!