Joe Paterno Dies

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (kland01s)

Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:55:02 GMT

All I can say is Wow... to CC. Amazing the extent that people will go to to ignore a situation. It's sad and probably goes on much more than we know.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Thu, 26 Jul 2012 02:22:56 GMT

I had to navigate a situation from my first day of high school...when my guidance counselor came to reg to introduce herself...and she realized I graduated from the same grammar school as the father of her baby who was two years older. She was pregnant and from that day on...I had to find a way to walk a minefield of someone who was so troubled needy and dangerous (and in the position of influence and control) that wanted to either be my best friend or worst enemy....until I left high school and had to find a way to some peaceful path of education as a 15 year old. It wasn't easy.

http://www.nytimes.com/20...er.html?pagewanted=all

Many people who could have put a stop to it knew at the time. She married him after he graduated...and she eventually abused a friend of her son.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (stricken_detective)

Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:59:44 GMT

CCinNJ

Maybe their objective was to just keep "it" away from Penn State....even if it meant helping Second Mile be the place where he did his thing.

That just turned my blood into ice.

I can't talk about this anymore.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:58:57 GMT

Maybe they looked at it (when they knew who knows when that was) as damage control first. Everyone for the most part was involved in some manner there with Second Mile.. They all had working and fundraising relations with Second Mile). That business continued after the shower incident that was never reported to any Police Dept. If I recall correctly even Joe Paterno attended (maybe spoke) at a fundraiser for Matt Sandusky (who sadly revealed he was a victim as well recently)....after the shower incident.

Maybe their objective was to just keep "it" away from Penn State....even if it meant helping Second Mile be the place where he did his thing.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (saps)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:38:10 GMT

plb

What about women's sports? Generally women’s basketball loses money and is subsidized by the profits from men’s basketball. That leaves football to pay for all other women’s, and most of the costs of other men’s sports. If they fine the football program and put in policies that lessen its revenue, where will the money come from? Will they cut women’s sports or pay for them from the academic budget? (per The WSJ, football generates $50.6 million while spending $10.4 million)

The University is being punished because of a conspiracy whereby high ranking Penn State officials (including Joe Paterno) covered up the activities of a serial child rapist. A main reason that it was covered up was to protect the football program, and presumably, its revenue stream. Of course it's going to impact other sports and the University as a whole: It's a punishment. The administrators should have considered the consequences of their actions before they conspired to cover them up.

I keep wondering why they didn't just turn Sandusky in. All of these major college programs (Yes, even St. Joe's of Paternoville) have dirt on them. My guess is that they were afraid that he would squeal on the program if they turned him in. That's the only explanation that I can think of which allowed him to continue to use University facilities to continue his child raping.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (saps)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:29:43 GMT

The 1998 police investigation involved Penn State University police. I think that any objective observer would find it odd that such an investigation would be dropped. And seeing as though Joe Paterno was the hammer on that campus, I think it's likely that he indirectly or directly influenced the discontinuance of the investigation. Kind of suspicious how the "innocent" Sandusky was forced out shortly after that incident.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (plb)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:28:53 GMT

What about women's sports? Generally women’s basketball loses money and is subsidized by the profits from men’s basketball. That leaves football to pay for all other women’s, and most of the costs of other men’s sports. If they fine the football program and put in policies that lessen its revenue, where will the money come from? Will they cut women’s sports or pay for them from the academic budget? (per The WSJ, football generates $50.6 million while spending $10.4 million)

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Mosca)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 14:08:33 GMT

MetroplexJim
I'm sure that he went to his grave wondering the same thing.

I think he went to his grave thinking, "Thank god I'm dying before I have to face what I've done."

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 12:03:57 GMT

You give him zero credit for all those years he had a system in place to know everything about his players as far as grades...behavior (that could jeopardize the team) etc. and with that system how to carefully navigate all the NCAA rules to prevent sanctions fines and lawsuits.... internal or external....with pinpoint execution when it came to the football program.

With that experience and power he developed a way to get all of the information that he wanted. Certainly not by means of the weak little sisters of the poor characterization of what happened that Saturday morning. Someone came to him about this and he stopped them from telling him everything...because "he was so upset". That's nonsense. At that point he needed to ask to be told everything so he could truly handle it and see to it that that child and every other child that came before him was safe...to avoid every other child after these children to face the same harm.

He didn't want to know anything. He didn't want to think about it in a sexual sense. But it wasn't a consentual sexual experience...it was a crime against a helpless child. If that's either not worthy of attention or can't be handled by this man known as the most powerful man around...he had no place being a leader of young men...having a statue in the first place...or an ounce of sympathy.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (MetroplexJim)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:53:45 GMT

stricken_detective

"A body of rights, obligations, and remedies that is applied by courts in civil proceedings to provide relief for persons who have suffered harm from the wrongful acts of others. The person who sustains injury or suffers pecuniary damage as the result of tortious conduct is known as the plaintiff, and the person who is responsible for inflicting the injury and incurs liability for the damage is known as the defendant or tortfeasor".

My point exactly. Imagine what would have happened if Paterno, after the 1998 police investigation "cleared" Sandusky, had not "merely" forced Sandusky's sudden and mysterious "retirement" and instead called a press conference and said:

"I fired Sandusky because he's a child molester. Yeah, I know the Pennsylvania State Police cleared him but those clowns couldn't close a door, much less a case on this vile diddler of children. Therefore, I, the Great JoePa, in my capacity as the absolute lord and master not only of the Pennsylvania State University but of the entire Commonwealth, have acted as investigator, judge, jury, and executioner in this matter and not only fired his ass but have also ordered his exile from the Commonwealth".

Had Paterno done that does anyone doubt for a minute that the "police cleared" Sandusky would not have been able to sue JoePa for everything he had, including the false choppers?

As it was Sandusky probably threatened suit against PSU over his "retirement" and did in fact get a $168,000 cash payment, PSU pension, and access to PSU facilities. Penn State and its lawyers negotiated that, not Paterno.

stricken_detective

I can't believe you're defending an abuser's enabler.

I am most certainly not! I believe that the true enablers here were the craven and cowardly PSU administrators (and their craven and cowardly lawyers). JoePa had fired the SOB and probably "caught sh*t" from the PSU lawyers for that, given that the police had cleared Sandusky.

Years after he had fired Sandusky, JoePa heard a highly sanitized depiction of Sandusky's miscreance in a PSU facility. He then told the appropriate administrators to investigate. Short of his assuming the mantle of investigator, judge, jury, and executioner, what more could JoePa have done? I'm sure that he went to his grave wondering the same thing.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (stricken_detective)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:15:40 GMT

^Good question, CC!!!

If he knew it is the same as committing the crime yourself.

And there you have it.

If it was your Son and you found out that he knew what would you do?

MetroPlexJim, I await your answer to this question.

Also: I take no pleasure in someones misfortune. The whole thing makes me sick. Pathetic above the law pigs sitting idle while they allow this thing to molest children. Destroying and scarring them for ever. Stealing from them innocence and a whole life. They were so messed up they held it in for years. How dare you imply that I took pleasure out of this. If it were my son Sandusky never would have made it to jail.

For you to think ANYONE is taking pleasure in this? Means you're delusional. We are ANGRY. Angry that Sandusky was able to continue this, and angry with JoePa for not speaking up when he first heard about it & making SURE Sandusky went to jail. Instead, MORE PEOPLE WERE ABUSED. What part of your brain is not comprehending that? You can talk about torts all you want, quite frankly 8 hours a day isn't enough for me, so I dug this up:

"A body of rights, obligations, and remedies that is applied by courts in civil proceedings to provide relief for persons who have suffered harm from the wrongful acts of others. The person who sustains injury or suffers pecuniary damage as the result of tortious conduct is known as the plaintiff, and the person who is responsible for inflicting the injury and incurs liability for the damage is known as the defendant or tortfeasor.

Three elements must be established in every tort action. First, the plaintiff must establish that the defendant was under a legal duty to act in a particular fashion. Second, the plaintiff must demonstrate that the defendant breached this duty by failing to conform his or her behavior accordingly. Third, the plaintiff must prove that he suffered injury or loss as a direct result of the defendant's breach."
With his continued silence, YES!!!, Paterno did cause a tort. What more could he have done, you ask? He could have told. He could have said "NO! This is NOT acceptable. NOT on my campus." BUT HE DIDN'T!!!

I can't believe you're defending an abuser's enabler. That speaks volumes as well.

If Paterno did not know about it and hid it. Then why are they removing him from the University?

Because it is ludicrous to have that blasted statue on campus where those victims will have to see it, walk past it & think to themselves, "Why didn't he tell? Why didn't he help me?" Enough is enough. And the Paternos should really keep their omerta on this. No one cares what they think now.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 00:45:44 GMT

If you were to entertain the notion that a dime was dropped in 2000 (just about a job)..why would Sandusky still be...

A) walking the streets?

B) in the Penn State shower abusing a boy after that?

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (stricken_detective)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 00:28:06 GMT

Mosca
All this says is that Paterno had to be an idiot to not know. So the choices are 1) Paterno was an idiot and didn't know, but was an iron fisted ruler of the PSU campus (by all accounts, he was), or 2) Paterno knew, and covered it up.

Of those choices, #2 is more likely. The man was no idiot.

Italian idiots are rare, our fathers & grandfathers tend not to put up with idiots for very long. He knew what was going on, which makes it worse.

If he really ruled with an iron fist, he would have stuck it *expletives deleted* and forced San-dumbass to resign.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (stricken_detective)

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 00:21:51 GMT

The NCAA penalties:

I'm going through these one by one.

$60 million fine

Chump change for Penn State. Is this the money that's supposed to go towards abuse prevention? Fine, but it's not going to change the fact all those boys were damaged. Are any of the victims receiving restitution or is that information being kept confidential due to the nature of the crime?

the loss of all of coach Joe Paterno's victories from 1998-2011

This is ridiculous.What are they going to do, go back & give the win to all the opposing teams? Just Plain Stupid, aka JPS.

four-year ban on bowl games

JPS. JoePa's cowardly inactions are not fault of the current, new & future players. They shouldn't be penalized in this way.

the loss of 20 scholarships per year over four years

JPS & this is the one that really pisses me off. For some of those young guys, a football scholarship is their only way out of their city. Why should they be penalized? JPS!!!!!!!!!

five years' probation

Probation from what?

any current or incoming football players are free to immediately transfer & compete at another school

All expenses paid by Penn State?

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Mosca)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:49:29 GMT

All this says is that Paterno had to be an idiot to not know. So the choices are 1) Paterno was an idiot and didn't know, but was an iron fisted ruler of the PSU campus (by all accounts, he was), or 2) Paterno knew, and covered it up.

Of those choices, #2 is more likely. The man was no idiot.

MetroplexJim

Even though a police investigation had cleared him of the (initial) 1998 charges, Sandusky - in his coaching prime - mysteriously and suddenly "retired" at the end of that season. To me that would seem to be an attitude of "zero tolerance" on the part of Coach Paterno. What more could he do? Call the police that had already cleared Sandusky? As Sandusky, absent any conviction, was out of a job he negotiated both a cash settlement from PSU and continuing access to its facilities.

Clearly though, Sandusky did not want to "retire": my alma mater, U.Va., reportedly offered him the head coaching position in he had sought in 2000, but mysteriously and suddenly withdrew the offer. As Virginia's retiring coach was a protege of Coach Paterno it does not take much imagination to think that JoePa "dropped a dime".

Regarding the "locker room incident" McQueary testifed under oath to the grand jury that he was purposefully vague with Paterno, out of deference to his age and generation. He said, "You don't talk about those things with Joe Paterno."

Despite having the benefit of only a highly sanitized version of what had happened Coach Paterno told his boss, the Director of Athletics and his boss' boss, the Vice President for Administration to investigate. Both those individuals have now been indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice. Not only did they commit those crimes, they violated both Paterno's trust and, given his earned position, directive.

To me, the $60 million "fine", the $65 million in bowl revenue that the Big 10 will withhold and donate to charity, the devastation of its football program, and the huge civil settlements still yet to come are insufficient prices to pay for the craven "institutional failure" on such a scale.

What more within the law or not causing a tort could Paterno have done? As Captain, he went down with the ship. As Paterno already has six feet of mud on his face, let's let him rest.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (MilwFoodlovers)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:54:45 GMT

Paterno and Sandusky had offices in the same complex. Knowing what a scumbag Sandusky was, and seeing kids parade in and out of the offices would have lead an honorable man to see that it ended.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:29:40 GMT

Just imagine the uneasy feeling of having to live through sexual abuse...be interviewed about it...testify about it in graphic detail in front of the abuser who did it. Then listen to what a shame it is to drag a good man down...and see where history lies.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (FriedClamFanatic)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 13:21:59 GMT

Regardless of where you stand on this issue, the "re-writing of history" has always bothered me. I know they have done that in the past, but it still makes me uneasy. I think it is a bad precedent and may someday be over used.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:49:14 GMT

The what more could have been done part needs to be addressed. That's why it's important to change the culture. That's why people who are in the position of power and those who respect that...need to be aware and especially aware enough with all that power of example to know when something is wrong to do all the can to take what they know as soon as there is a hint and make it about doing the right thing. Use that influence to say "I'll be damned" to bury a head turn a head to it...and don't handle it as a matter of reputation or status of program that is to be kept safe.

In 60+ years of service I am sure that consentual matters of inappropriate behavior or hazing have occurred. If it's a matter of age or embarrassment to discuss it or think about it...that alone is a big red flag reason enough to realize ..it's a failure of position that so many admit was all-powerful. Can't have it both ways. Rule with an iron fist...hold others accountable...oh what more could he do?

When you don't do anything to break that cycle...it yields more victims that yield more victims.

What more could have been done?

Well...in less than a year this criminal went through the process. So...maybe point out so those who are worried about their need to hold on to their hero status...that the right thing to do was to "interfere" with a Saturday. After all...that would not be much of an issue if it what was about something (God forgive me) less important like football.

As far as the highly-sanitized version. A naked adult male fondling a 10 year old boy?

That could be mistake for something ok? That is something that could be confused for anything other than sexual abuse?

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (MetroplexJim)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:16:35 GMT

Even though a police investigation had cleared him of the (initial) 1998 charges, Sandusky - in his coaching prime - mysteriously and suddenly "retired" at the end of that season. To me that would seem to be an attitude of "zero tolerance" on the part of Coach Paterno. What more could he do? Call the police that had already cleared Sandusky? As Sandusky, absent any conviction, was out of a job he negotiated both a cash settlement from PSU and continuing access to its facilities.

Clearly though, Sandusky did not want to "retire": my alma mater, U.Va., reportedly offered him the head coaching position in he had sought in 2000, but mysteriously and suddenly withdrew the offer. As Virginia's retiring coach was a protege of Coach Paterno it does not take much imagination to think that JoePa "dropped a dime".

Regarding the "locker room incident" McQueary testifed under oath to the grand jury that he was purposefully vague with Paterno, out of deference to his age and generation. He said, "You don't talk about those things with Joe Paterno."

Despite having the benefit of only a highly sanitized version of what had happened Coach Paterno told his boss, the Director of Athletics and his boss' boss, the Vice President for Administration to investigate. Both those individuals have now been indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice. Not only did they commit those crimes, they violated both Paterno's trust and, given his earned position, directive.

To me, the $60 million "fine", the $65 million in bowl revenue that the Big 10 will withhold and donate to charity, the devastation of its football program, and the huge civil settlements still yet to come are insufficient prices to pay for the craven "institutional failure" on such a scale.

What more within the law or not causing a tort could Paterno have done? As Captain, he went down with the ship. As Paterno already has six feet of mud on his face, let's let him rest.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (CCinNJ)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:38:23 GMT

This part of the Grand Jury testimony speaks to the culture that has to change (if people just don't understand or want to think or know about these things)..

Q: When did you — did you do something with that information?
Mr. Paterno: Well, I can’t be precise.
I ordinarily would have called people right away, but it was a Saturday morning and I didn’t want to interfere with their weekends.
So I don’t know whether I did it Saturday or did it early the next week.
I’m not sure when, but I did it within the week.

That speaks volumes.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Mosca)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:14:58 GMT

I think it's more nuanced than that, saps, and while I disagree strongly with Jim, I can also understand his point of view.

We like to divide things into categories. It helps us make sense of things. But people refuse to fit into buckets. The scandal can't negate all the good things that happened at Penn State. Can you point to a date and say, "This is where the train came off the tracks"? I can't. We're probably safe saying that no one knew when he was hired that Sandusky was a pedophile. So, are we safe saying that everything up until when they should have known (1998) was OK, and then it was all bad?

That's what the NCAA is trying to say. And even then, they're on shaky ground. Their actions are self-serving grandstanding as much as they are punitive. Nothing is going to change in college football. Not at Penn State, and not anywhere else. Maybe no one is going to get Paterno's power again, but in this era of coaches moving at the drop of a million dollar check, even that seems like something from another era.

But still, something needed to be done. Something needed to be said, as a society, that no one is so powerful that they can ignore the weak and powerless. Especially in today's highly charged atmosphere. That the target happens to include Paterno, and by extension his family, seems like an absurdity in light of how the man has been viewed over the years, but there are some who say that appearances can be deceiving. And no one reaches those heights, in any profession, without a good streak of avarice and ruthlessness, be it a lust for money, or power, or influence. In our quest to do good, we sometimes do a fair bit of trampling.

It is a human tragedy, on a small scale, and on a large scale, shallow and widespread for some, deep and personal for others, extending from decades in the past and now assured to extend for decades into the future. Now it is our turn to accept it and live with it. The University has accepted it; for die hard loyalists, they are setting the lead. The best, and most noble course I think, is to follow. You may disagree, and I respect that. But your pride is something that others see in you, not that something you show to others. When I see a Penn State fan who nods, keeps silent, and wears the colors, I see pride. When I see a Penn State fan who protests loudly, I don't know what it is I'm seeing.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (saps)

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 01:06:11 GMT

The Freeh report group collected over 1 million pages of documents, and did over 400 interviews. As Mosca said, being that it was commissioned by and paid for by Penn State, conditions were ripe for a whitewash, akin to having a cigarette company doing their own report on the dangers of smoking.

The same apologists that are condemning the report are the same people that would have been cheering it had Paterno been exonerated.

But the PSU zombies don't care about the report, the abused kids, or anything else besides the Cult of Joe and their football.

Metroplex Jim, you clearly haven't read the Freeh Report, but don't bother. Those that choose to be in denial will remain in denial

In the meantime, let's watch PSU keep playing the victim. Freeh is wrong, the NCAA is wrong, the Big Ten is wrong, and pretty much every sports analyst is wrong, according to the PSU Kool-Aid drinkers. Everyone is wrong- the PSU lemmings are right.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Michael Hoffman)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:14:09 GMT

MetroplexJim

However, when he was alive and able, Coach Paterno testified under oath to the Grand Jury which, in turn, found him not culpable.

Jim, I hadn't planned to get into this discussion, but ... .

Paterno did testify under oath to the grand jury that he had no knowledge of anything prior to being told by McQueary of the 2001 incident. But that was a lie, according to the Freeh Report. Further, as to a grand jury finding Paterno not culpable, it found nothing of the kind. The grand jury wasn't asked to find anything concerning Paterno, and it certainly had no knowledge of what would later be learned by the Freeh investigation.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Mosca)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:31:18 GMT

At the same time, you don't whitewash the report in respect of his memory. It is what it is. Again: it was commissioned by the university, as a fact finding report. Freeh has close ties to PSU, as vice chairman of MBNA, where his boss was on the board of Second Mile, and MBNA is the bank for the Penn State Alumni Association. The conditions couldn't have been more favorable to a whitewash, and we didn't get one.

MetroplexJim

Tampico:

Please read post#8 above.

One does not have to be a former F.B.I. Director to know that the easiest "target" (and cheapest shot) is a dead man who can no longer defend himself.

However, when he was alive and able, Coach Paterno testified under oath to the Grand Jury which, in turn, found him not culpable.

Yes, I am sick, too. And I share entirely your sentiments about the vile convict Sandusky.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Tampico)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:16:45 GMT

See No Evil
Hear No Evil
Speak No Evil

"What you see here, what you do here, what you hear here, when you leave here, let it stay here."

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (MetroplexJim)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:03:08 GMT

Tampico:

Please read post#8 above.

One does not have to be a former F.B.I. Director to know that the easiest "target" (and cheapest shot) is a dead man who can no longer defend himself.

However, when he was alive and able, Coach Paterno testified under oath to the Grand Jury which, in turn, found him not culpable.

Yes, I am sick, too. And I share entirely your sentiments about the vile convict Sandusky.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Mosca)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:16:08 GMT

Without taking sides on the interpretation of it,

Let's remember that the Freeh Report is a fact finding report, commissioned by the university, not by an outside agency. It is the university's report on its own faults, and Paterno was part of the university.

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (Tampico)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:53:00 GMT

Metro:

I have no idea where his soul went only he does. I hope he went to Heaven. Personally, and I could be wrong. But after all the sanctions and the direct response to Paterno they have enough evidence to conclude that he knew about this pedophile for quite sometime and he did nothing to stop it. If it is true and he knew then he is a MONSTER and I have little sympathy for him. What kind of animal allows this behavior to go on at the University on his watch? What kind of University allows it to continue? Defending him for not doing something is ludicrous. If he knew it is the same as committing the crime yourself. The people who knew destroyed the University for decades to come. The city will take a huge economic hit. Many will lose jobs, students will lose education, athletes will be tarnished and have to start over. When you think of Penn State you will think of the terrible things that were allowed to happen. All because a group of individuals took the path of not saying something. We have not heard the last of it. If Paterno knew of these incidences and did nothing then God Save his Soul. If it was your Son and you found out that he knew what would you do?

Also: I take no pleasure in someones misfortune. The whole thing makes me sick. Pathetic above the law pigs sitting idle while they allow this thing to molest children. Destroying and scaring them for ever. Stealing from them innocence and a whole life. They were so messed up they held it in for years. How dare you imply that I took pleasure out of this. If it were my son Sandusky never would have made it to jail.

If Paterno did not know about it and hid it. Then why are they removing him from the University?

Re:Joe Paterno Dies (MetroplexJim)

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 12:14:45 GMT

Tampico:

My question is how much posthumus approbation, humiliation, and iconoclasm will it take to slake the vile thirst for Schadenfreude on the part of the classless fans of the rest of the Big Ten?

Clearly, you and I differ on which direction Coach Paterno's soul went after the Lord took him. Have fun with your Schadenfreude, but know the Lord is watching.