Indian Food versus Mid-Eastern

quote:

Originally posted by BT

quote:

Originally posted by f_zadi

There was some discussion upthread about whether or not Moroccan cuisine is Middle Eastern. It is not. It is North African or http://mybookofrai.typepad.com/my_weblog/maghribi_cuisine/index.html
or Magrhibi (Maghrebi)

A lot of cookbooks call it all "Mediterranean" so they can include foods from the entire circumference of that body of water. They have a fair amount in common since the climate is similar so the locally available produce and other food basics are similar and also many of them have the Arab influence in their history (not just presently Muslim countries but also Spain, Sicily and even Israel). Anyway, I like the food from pretty much all of 'em from Morocco and Spain to Greece, Turkey, and Lebanon.

True, and historically, the term "the Levant" was used to refer to the eastern side of the Mediterranean and its cuisine...which would include today the borders of the nation states of Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Turkey, etc..many similarities between these varied cultures in terms of their cuisines. In addition, the Levant was a part of the medieval Islamic empire that stretched from Turkey to Spain (including Morocco), so a fair amount of exchange of foods/recipes could be expected across the entire region.

quote:

Originally posted by NancyPeter

In my humble opinion, I believe Moroccan food would be more Mid-Eastern. That country, while it is on the African continent, seems to be set apart food-wise!

Input on this from anyone else?

Nancy

Having lived in Morocco, the Middle East, India, et al for several years, let me add a bit here. NP and Elise, you are both on the right track here.

Although Morocco is geographically African it is historically and culturally Muslim and its dietary rules have followed Islamic tenets for the past 1200 years. This area of Muslim North Africa is known as the Mahgrib and encompasses Morocco, Algeria, Libya, and Egypt; although western geographers always want to lump Egypt into their Middle East pigeonhole, it is regarded as one of the [western] provinces of the Muslim world that extended to the gates of France until Roland and the last good frog army pushed them back to Spain, it wasn't until 1492 that Ferdinand and Isabella finally expelled the last of the Moors from Spain proper. Although Islam spread to the Sudan, Chad, and central Africa, the cuisine there is more "African", as are the peoples there, racially and ethnically as opposed to the fairer skinned and Mediterranean denizens of the Mahgrib.

Although many Moroccan dishes are similar to Middle Eastern dishes, there are regional favorites such as couscous and paella, the latter reflects the mingled culinary traditions of the Moors with both Spanish and Moroccan roots (don't look now folks, but it wasn't always "Spain" on the map...). Moroccans have the advantage of bordering on both the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, so fish has been a part of the diet for the coastal areas for centuries, as it has been for other Muslim countries in the Middle East which front on either the Mediterranean or Indian Ocean (as well as the major rivers that many historic Middle Eastern cities are built on). With the advent of the 20th century and refrigerated transport, seafood has become more readily available in the many inland cities, in the East as well as the West.

Tap on "Moroccan recipes" on Google and you'll find many wonderful dishes. Although their English name translations sound less fanciful than their exotic native names, the titles reflect the unique blend of Mediterranean and traditional Muslim fare: Peasant Pancakes, Chicken and Olives, Moroccan Chicken, Moroccan Lamb with Apricots, Moroccan Meatball Stew, Orange Salad, and Moroccan Eggplant...

But if you asked me what Moroccan dish I miss the most (that I can't get in neighboring cities), it's the street vendor/casbah stall stuff: the ubiquitous glasses of sticky sweet hot mint tea with bees circling the glass and the smoky little briquettes of spicy lamb grilled on tiny grills and served with warm fresh sheets of bread.

Interestingly, when the United States first became a nation over 200 years ago, the first country in the world to officially recognize our sovereignty was the kingdom of Morocco....surprisingly, we still have fairly good ties with them to this day.

Mark in Ohio, Thanks for the post. You gave some great information and a good historical viewpoint to the topic.

Culturally and culinary the Magrhib countries are Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia (Parts of Libya and Mauritania are as well, but that's along story)

The meaning of Maghrib may mean "east", but the fact is no Egyptian will refer to himself as a Magrhibi.

Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia were once a unified country.

There is no Marghribi who will refer to him/herself as a Middle Easterner. Maghribi cuisine has certainly been influenced by the Middle East but it is by know means reducible to that, not that anyone is implying that.

Let's take Algeria for instance, there is the Amazighs (Berbers), Arab, Hispano-Arab/Berber, Saracens (moors who conquered Sicily,m influenced the cuisine there and came back with there dishes) Ottoman, European (in several waves, including the Spanish who settle Oran and the French Colonials who also recruited Sicilian, Spanish and Maltese settlers)

I forgot to mention the sub-saharan African influences as well.

Originally posted by f_zadi

The meaning of Maghrib may mean "east", but the fact is no Egyptian will refer to himself as a Magrhibi.

Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia were once a unified country.

There is no Marghribi who will refer to him/herself as a Middle Easterner. Maghribi cuisine has certainly been influenced by the Middle East but it is by know means reducible to that, not that anyone is implying that.

A friend of mine is Persian and gets somewhat impatient when being referred to as Arabic or Middle Eastern. She does not consider herself either, but has used the term Central Asian or simply Persian to describe her ethnic backround.
Just as North African cuisine may have some elements common with other parts of the Mediterranean, Persian cuisine is also unique unto itself. I find the evolution of any culture's culinary history as interesting as cooking and eating that food.

RECIPE or PROCEDURE wanted.

From Atlanta, or at least North Fulton COunty. We ate at a new Persian place last night, Saffron, on Sandy Plains Road and it was very good. After some searching on Roadfood, and quite s bit of Googling, I pose a question on this thread because of the several mentions of "Persian" and because the last entry was fairly recent. "India" and "middle east" do bracket Persia so perhaps this is not too far off topic.

How does one make the dried limes used in Persian cookery?

I certainly would appreciate it if some one would share a recipe or a link.

And Saffron? I give it high marks. We will go back, perhaps after calling ahead to make sure a desired item is available. Iy was very good.

quote:

Originally posted by Born in OKC

RECIPE or PROCEDURE wanted.

From Atlanta, or at least North Fulton COunty. We ate at a new Persian place last night, Saffron, on Sandy Plains Road and it was very good. After some searching on Roadfood, and quite s bit of Googling, I pose a question on this thread because of the several mentions of "Persian" and because the last entry was fairly recent. "India" and "middle east" do bracket Persia so perhaps this is not too far off topic.

How does one make the dried limes used in Persian cookery?

I certainly would appreciate it if some one would share a recipe or a link.

And Saffron? I give it high marks. We will go back, perhaps after calling ahead to make sure a desired item is available. Iy was very good.

Persian food is wonderful. Dried limes are very difficult to prepare at home, the limes available here are a different variety I believe. I buy them at a Indian Pakistani market that sells Persian items as well. You could try Kalustyan's. It's a great web site.
http://www.kalustyans.com/searchcatalog.asp
I was lucky to learn about Persian food from a Tehran born woman who is a talented cook. I could send you some simple recipes for things using dried limes if you like. Kabob recipes, too. Now I must make Persian food for dinner!

zataar,

Thank you for the tip on kalustanyan's (sp?). It certainly looks like they have a lot of good stuff. Quite possibly I can find them closer though.

Certainly I would appreciate any personal recipes it is convenient for you to share. I'd suggest though that you post them on roodfood if webbie does not object. I think many would be interested. Certainly it has been done before, look at the chili thread.

For openers, how about chicken in pomegranite juice and seasoned with the dried limes?

ANd I'd still like to learn the procedure for dried limes, efen if not practical to do it hereabouts.

THanks again!

zataar,

another question please. the Persian place I mentioned before had a side dish, a sort of green pepper sauce which they said came in two grades, mild and hot. the hot was fairly piquant. I don't remember the name of the sauce. I don't see any recipes on the 'net that seem to be the item I describe. Do you or another recognize it from my description? I can see using it as a sauce for kabobs, especially beef or mutton.

quote:

Originally posted by Born in OKC

zataar,

another question please. the Persian place I mentioned before had a side dish, a sort of green pepper sauce which they said came in two grades, mild and hot. the hot was fairly piquant. I don't remember the name of the sauce. I don't see any recipes on the 'net that seem to be the item I describe. Do you or another recognize it from my description? I can see using it as a sauce for kabobs, especially beef or mutton.

I'm not familar with a Persian sauce like you described. If you remember what it's called let me know, I'm intrigued! I have had a Yemenite green chile sauce called Shatta that is mild or hot and is based on green chiles. Shatta is great with all kinds of kabobs and breads, yogurt and pickled things. I finally received the recipes I've been waiting for and as soon as I have the time to break them down from 24 serving to 6 or 8 I'll post them. Sorry it's taken so long. The recipe for Joojeh Kabob is very easy and very tasty. You'll really like it if I ever get it posted!

I love both Indian and Middle Eastern foods. I'm so fortunate that my husband (who posts here as BillC) turns out wonderful Middle Eastern dishes. His baba ghanoush is simply the best. His tagines (Moroccan stews) are delicious. One tagine that he makes gives you "layers" of flavors in each bite, much like some Indian dishes.

In regard to the authenticity of Indian restaurant food, a co-worker of mine who is from Bombay told me that it is, indeed, "restaurant food". She said, "Nobody in India eats like that at home. It's too rich and nobody could afford the equipment."

I've been making this 1 vegetable indian recipe over and over again for the last 18 years, everytime I have it on the stove, my husband is elated:

Vegetable and Chick pea curry:

1/4 cup olive oil
1 cup chicken broth
3 cloves garlic minced
1 tomato chopped
1 head cauliflower florets broken apart
3 peeled potatoes cubed
1 onion chopped
1 can chick peas drained
1 small hot pepper minced
handful of chopped cilantro
1 heaping tablespoon curry (I use Jamaican Blue Mountain HOT)
but it really does not matter.

In large saute pan or pot, pour in oil, add onion and garlic cook for 2 minutes. Add curry and tomato, cook additional minute, stirring.
Add all else, stir, bring to boil, cover and cook on low heat for 45 minutes. Serve with white rice.

This is one of the best Southindian food i have tasted.

mohan, is the cumin powdered or whole seed and if the latter, do you toast them before adding?

Another question for zataar or another,

We ate at the above mentioned Persian Restaurant again and had another order of the "side dish" I inquired about.

In their menu it is "torshi liateh." Googling yields "liteh" as an alternate.

The appearance of the item served is similar to a finely chopped pickle relish, green, vinegrly, and picquant. The recipes I see on line run mostly to chopped herbs, egg plant, and vinegar and aging. I can't see such a concoction staying a pickle relish green

The restaurant also has another item, "torshi vegetables - shor." I havent found much on the 'net about this item. I have not tried this item BTW.

Comments requested about different versions of torshi.

I wish we had more Middle Eastern restaurants near us (about an hour north of D.C.). There are a couple of Persian restaurants in Northern Virginia, and 38 Middle Eastern places in NVA, DC, and Montgomery County (north of D.C.), but only one in Frederick (up near us). There is, however, Habibs Kebabs and Bagels in Eldersburg, Maryland. I know. Kebabs and Bagels. If only the world could get together that easily. It's not a fancy place, but their food is terrific.
http://www.habibskabob.com/

A search on "Mediterranean" yields a weird mix of Greek, Middle Eastern, Indian, and Italian "/Mediterranean" restaurants. But only one Moroccan restaurant (at least in the Washingtonian Online): http://www.washingtonian.com/dining/restaurantDetail.asp?id=2037.

I have a great cookbook called, "From the Lands of Figs and Olives."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156656414X/ref=sr_11_1/102-0389046-5976903?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Wonderful Arabic cooking. Recipes from all over the Middle East and North Africa, including Morocco. Each recipe notes the country (or countries, such as "Syria and Lebanon" or "Palestine and Jordan") from whence the dish originates.

"Torshi" doesn't seem to appear in the book, however.

Jennie

Torshi are Persian pickled things and relishes, fruits and/or vegetables. The reason you may not see torshi in a book of middle eastern food is that the foods of Iran are not middle eastern, but Persian.

For what it is worth, I finally found more information about torshi under Afghan cookery. And the Persian place I bragged about is no more. It is now Doug's home cooking or some such. Probably means no belly dancer also.

Flipping through my book, I see it lists things from Morocco all the way across to and including Iraq, Kuwait, and Kurdistan, but stops at the mountains. I guess for Persian, I'll have to turn to Forough Hekmat. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0781802415/sr=8-1/qid=1148909192/ref=sr_1_1/102-0389046-5976903?%5Fencoding=UTF8) This is a more recent edition than the one I've got. Hekmat lists five different recipes for Torshis:

PICKLES
(Torshis)

Pickles are essential to Persian food and always accompany the various polous, kababs, and fried meats. Even the poorest home in the country has a supply of pickles, for it is a general belief that pickes not only are appetizing and appetite-stimulating but are necessary to the functioning of the body chemistry. The acidity of the pickles helps to consume the oils and starches in the body and aids digestion by relieving the work of the stomach and liver. Therefore, in the course of ages, pickles of fruits, vegetables, and the peels of fruits have been devised, all based on strong cider or grape vinegar and a variety of spices, such as red and green pepper, cinnamon, cardamom, mace, nutmeg, turmeric, ginger, and coriander, as well as the many available seeds--fennel, anise, white poppy and mustard--and also garlic and tamarind.

The recipes Hekmat lists are for "Peach Pickles" (Torshi Holu), "Pickled Limes" (Torshi Limu), "Quick Pickled Limes," "Persimmon Pickle" (Torshi Khramlu), "Pickled Apples" (Torshi Sib), and "Eggplant Pickles" (Torshi Bademjan).

I'll type out the Lime Pickle instructions and the Peach Pickles recipe, as it sounds delicious. Let me know if you want one of the others.

Pickled Limes
(Torshi Limu)

This is one of the most popular dishes in Iran, and the women of Shiraz are renowned for making it superbly.

With a rough, clean stone or a fine grater scrub the skin of 20 large fresh limes until all the green is removed. They must look like small white balls. Roll the limes in salt until they are thickly coated and place them in the sun or a very warm room to dry. When well dried, brush off the salt and pack them in a preserving jar. Cover with white or distilled vinegar. Close tightly and keep at room temperature.

Dried limes may be kept in a covered jar and soaked in vinegar whenever they are needed. Lemon juice may be substituted for the vinegar. This torshi is best with kababs, polous, or qa'meh.

Quick Pickled Limes

Split 20 large limes into 4 sections, leaving them intact at the bottom. Stuff each lime with salt and place one on top of another in a basket in the sun to dry for at least 20 days. **Jennie note: This is the quick recipe?!?** Then store in a cool, dry place. When needed, remove the salt from as many limes as desired and pack them in a jar. Cover with red-wine vinegar, cover, and keep at room temperature for about 1 week before serving with any kind of meats and polous.

Peach Pickles
(Torshi Holu)

2 tablespoon finely chopped dried ginger
4 cups grape vinegar
2 tablespoons coriander seed
1 whole bulb garlic
1 pound fresh or dried peaches
1/4 pound dried tamarind (if available)
1/2 teaspoon red pepper
1/2 cup cubed sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon black pepper

Soak the ginger in 1 cup of the vinegar for 2 days. Soak the peaches also, if they are dried. Toast coriander seeds slightly. Peel and separate garlic cloves. Combine peaches with the ginger, coriander, garlic, and 3 cups of vinegar. Soak the tamarind in the remaining cup of vinegar and rub between the fingers until all the tamarind pulp is smoothly dissolved. Strain the liquid into the other ingredients. Add the red pepper mixed with the sugar, salt, and black pepper. Bring to a boil and boil for 5 minutes. If the pickle is too thick, add a little more vinegar.

One half pound of any or all of the following ingredients may be added to this pickle: dried chopped prunes, plums, apricots, cherries, apples, figs, or persimmons; fresh or dried limes; small unpeeled oranges or tangarines, chopped.

When the pickles are done, all the ingredients must be covered with vinegar. If sweet fruits are used, the sugar should be elminated and the ginger should be doubled. Put pickles into a preserving jar and fill jar to overflowing with vinegar. Seal, but check every few days. If the vinegar is absorbed, open the jar and add more. These pickles are delicous with all sorts of rice and meat dishes.

I have tasted[url='http://www.coimbatorecity.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=37']Sambar[/url] in South India, Wow, it has incrediable flavour and aroma. Match some Idlys with Sambar, this combination is ideal breakfast I enjoyed.

For NancyPeter who asked about chapatis: these videos will show you the correct consistency of the dough and how to roll them out.
You need to purchase 100% whole wheat durum wheat chapati flour, also will have ATTA designation on its side. Make sure its NOT a mixture of white and whole wheat flours. SUJATA is an excellent brand from India but hard to get. Swad brand's BHALYA in next. Then the Canadian durun wheat flours.

http://vahrehvah.com/popvideo.php?recipe_id=3003

http://www.manjulaskitchen.com/2007/03/21/roti-chapati-flat-indian-bread/

http://www.kurma.net/recipes/index.html

http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/2008/02/21


for chicken:
http://www.anothersubcontinent.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=233&hl=

Jennie... I'd like the other recipes if you don't mind. Thanks, BR