Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it!

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That'sMyDawg
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2009/03/19 10:48:58 (permalink)

Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it!

Hello all,

some of you may remember I am in the process of opening and running hdc's. After hours of reading asking, searching etc I decided with the advice of many here to go used rather than a new hdc. Anyway I have a small (I hope) pipe problem.

The picture here shows (still working on how to post correctly) how the 3 sink set up pipes drop down to the waste tank. The issue is in my state the HD says that my 3 sinks must "drain independantley to the waste tank and must have the air gap" As you can see by the pic the air gap present but the 3 sinks tie in together so i have to correct that. This is where I need the help. Let me qualify this by saying I do not do plumbing work, never have and it is not my field. Having said that my idea may or may not work or even make any sense. Take a look and please advise with your suggestions, ideas etc and if this is a big deal to correct on my own or should I take it to a plumbing shop to do it. I thank you in advance...


My thoughts--- so my idea is to cut the pipes between them (where they tie into each other) and simply route 3 pipes down to the waste separately so the are independent of each other. Once down to above the waste tank funnel( that's what it looks like to me anyway) I would simply clamp the 3 pipes together sorta like the way you would wrap 3 rolls of pennies with a rubber band. (visual-not a real rubber band lol).

Now what I should have is the pipes coming down (3 pipes- v/s the 1 in the picture now) They would meet above the funnel thing, (I will need a wider funnel to catch the water and also to cover the wider space of 3 pipes v/s 1 now. If I am correct it should fix the problem of them being independent with out much fuss. Looks like the trick is making any bends with the new pipe set up to bring the pipes down correctly.

Ok, not worded the best but I hope you understand what I am trying and needing to do.

I'm listening to you guys like always!









post edited by greedyface - 2009/03/19 11:56:12
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17 Replies Related Threads

    PopsDogHouse
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 10:58:32 (permalink)
    I don't see a picture, but just visualizing what you've said, I don't see why your idea wouldn't work.  Just run 3 independent pipes like the HD requires and have them drain separately into your gray water tank.  The trick might getting a sufficient opening in the gray water tank to catch all the draining water without creating a big mess every time you use your sinks. 
    #2
    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 11:15:59 (permalink)
    PopsDogHouse

    I don't see a picture, but just visualizing what you've said, I don't see why your idea wouldn't work.  Just run 3 independent pipes like the HD requires and have them drain separately into your gray water tank.  The trick might getting a sufficient opening in the gray water tank to catch all the draining water without creating a big mess every time you use your sinks. 


    Got it! 

    post edited by greedyface - 2009/03/19 11:55:23
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    6star
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 11:44:42 (permalink)
    I see your picture, and since you have PVC pipe, I think the easiest thing to do would be to replace the 90o angle connection on each side with a 135o angle connection, replace the T connection in the center with a straight pipe connection, and add side pipes to the new 135o connections long enough so they almost meet in the center.  And yes, you will need a wider "funnel" (bigger than 3 times the diameter of your pipes):
     present pipes                       I     I     I
     new angle connection          \     I    /
     new pipes                             \  I  /
     new "funnel"           V
     
     
    You should be able to get all the parts wherever they sell PVC pipe (Lowes, Home Depot or a good hardware store)
    post edited by 6star - 2009/03/19 11:46:55
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    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 12:10:08 (permalink)
    6star

    I see your picture, and since you have PVC pipe, I think the easiest thing to do would be to replace the 90o angle connection on each side with a 135o angle connection, replace the T connection in the center with a straight pipe connection, and add side pipes to the new 135o connections long enough so they almost meet in the center.  And yes, you will need a wider "funnel" (bigger than 3 times the diameter of your pipes):
     present pipes                       I     I     I
     new angle connection          \     I    /
     new pipes                             \  I  /
     new "funnel"           V
     
     
    You should be able to get all the parts wherever they sell PVC pipe (Lowes, Home Depot or a good hardware store)


    OK thanks pops and 6star for your input. It sounds like something I can handle on my own. I will make sure I get a very wide opening for the gray water to make sure it catches it properly. lets see if others agree or have a different way of going about it. If not I will just do what you guys suggested. Will post the end result when completed.


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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 12:32:56 (permalink)
    You don't need to run 3 lines to the waste tank. Make the air gap at the waste tank with the common line.   The way the picture shows it will work and meet their requirement.   Maybe install a large "street ell" at the waste tank and pipe the common drain line over to it.            

    Now;  this requirement should not apply to HDC or any system with an independent waster water tank.  The drain line from your waste tank should meet the air gap requirement. This system will not back flow to the sinks, but will only fill up. …… So what happens with full waste tank; you dump on the ground thu the air gap.

    This design requirement was meant for restaurant kitchens to prevent back flowing sewage systems from flooding the sinks.  …….So I guess the HD would rather the kitchen floor to flood so the business will have to shut down until the City’s sewers are repaired and the kitchen/restaurant cleaned and sanitized.  Also, if the restaurant’s soil line to the City sewer stops up, the sinks will dump on the floor.

    I have a better solution for commercial kitchens.  …… But this is the stupidest thing that I have ever seen a HD require.   .....  And I have been seeing this for the past 10 years indifferent places.

    Good Luck, if you try to argue this with the HD Insp.




    post edited by edwmax - 2009/03/19 13:14:22
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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 13:08:00 (permalink)
    Comments about picture above:  You shouldn't need that much air space.  Only an inch or less.      .....Unless that is what the HD required.      .......Next use a larger/taller pipe on the bottom to minimize splashing.   example; 3" dia X 3 or 4" tall
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    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 17:05:41 (permalink)
    edwmax

    You don't need to run 3 lines to the waste tank. Make the air gap at the waste tank with the common line.   The way the picture shows it will work and meet their requirement.   Maybe install a large "street ell" at the waste tank and pipe the common drain line over to it.            

    Now;  this requirement should not apply to HDC or any system with an independent waster water tank.  The drain line from your waste tank should meet the air gap requirement. This system will not back flow to the sinks, but will only fill up. …… So what happens with full waste tank; you dump on the ground thu the air gap.

    This design requirement was meant for restaurant kitchens to prevent back flowing sewage systems from flooding the sinks.  …….So I guess the HD would rather the kitchen floor to flood so the business will have to shut down until the City’s sewers are repaired and the kitchen/restaurant cleaned and sanitized.  Also, if the restaurant’s soil line to the City sewer stops up, the sinks will dump on the floor.

    I have a better solution for commercial kitchens.  …… But this is the stupidest thing that I have ever seen a HD require.   .....  And I have been seeing this for the past 10 years indifferent places.

    Good Luck, if you try to argue this with the HD Insp.


    edwmax-- I'm not gonna lie to you here dude, I don't have any idea what your talking about lol :-)  as to how to correct it. It sounds like you are saying bring the pipe up from the ground more, make the gap at the main line and somehow that fixes the issue? If that is what you are saying I don't see how because the other 2 sides (left and right) are tied into the main line.  that is the problem they speak of about not being independent? All I know is my hot dog cart 3 sink pipes look like the picture above and my HD told me what I stated in the first post.  (they are very nice about and not jerks)

    "
    Comments about picture above:  You shouldn't need that much air space.  Only an inch or less.      .....Unless that is what the HD required.      .......Next use a larger/taller pipe on the bottom to minimize splashing.   example; 3" dia X 3 or 4" tall"


    As for the air space- ok I can make it have less air space if needed when I correct the pipe issue, the amount now is how it came. Yes I will use a larger pipe at the bottom to cut down on the splash, that sounds like a good idea. If you could clarify your first post I would appreciate it.


    post edited by greedyface - 2009/03/20 07:19:32
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    konnie
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 22:17:25 (permalink)
    I'm not doubting you but are you sure you understood what the HD said.  I've never heard of requiring each sink to drain seperately but of course I've never lived anywhere but Kansas either.  If it  were me, before I tore out any pipes, I would take the picture you have to the HD and ask if it is acceptable.  If they say no, then ask them to draw out what they want.  Not saying I'm right, just saying it sounds crazy to drain seperately.

    Mike S.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 22:38:01 (permalink)
    I'm saying the way it is done in the picture is OK. Just make the air-gap smaller. About 1/2" to 1"between the two.  The Sink flange you have may work ok. But if you have a lot of splash and spillage replace the sink flange with a bigger cup or pipe, longer or deeper.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/19 23:16:05 (permalink)
    OK, check the pumbing code requirement for min.air gap.   ........If that is 1 1/2" pipe, then the min air-gap is 3" between the ends.  2X's small pipe diameter.  
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    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/20 07:15:04 (permalink)
    konnie

    I'm not doubting you but are you sure you understood what the HD said.  I've never heard of requiring each sink to drain separately but of course I've never lived anywhere but Kansas either.  If it  were me, before I tore out any pipes, I would take the picture you have to the HD and ask if it is acceptable.  If they say no, then ask them to draw out what they want.  Not saying I'm right, just saying it sounds crazy to drain separately.

    Mike S.




    Mike S. I quoted in the first post directly from her email, it IS POSSIBLE that I am misunderstanding her though. funny thing is Thursday I contacted my HD rep and asked her word for word what you suggested BEFORE I read your post above lol! When I read your post I was like "OMG I just did exactly that" ha ha If she gives me a thumbs down I will take your suggestion and ask her to give me a drawing of what they want. Thanks you for your suggestion. Hope it works.

    edwmax

    edwmax--I'm saying the way it is done in the picture is OK. Just make the air-gap smaller. About 1/2" to 1"between the two.  The Sink flange you have may work ok. But if you have a lot of splash and spillage replace the sink flange with a bigger cup or pipe, longer or deeper.



    Now your talking. As I mentioned above gonna see what they say first and go from there. I may be alright. Will let you guys know the results.



    #12
    Rootsman
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/20 10:19:09 (permalink)
    Why the need for an air gap on a HDC or any trailer?  There is no chance of sewage back-up while stationary, and you'd get a big spill when your not.

    Sounds funny to me.
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    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/20 15:07:53 (permalink)
    6star

    I see your picture, and since you have PVC pipe, I think the easiest thing to do would be to replace the 90o angle connection on each side with a 135o angle connection, replace the T connection in the center with a straight pipe connection, and add side pipes to the new 135o connections long enough so they almost meet in the center.  And yes, you will need a wider "funnel" (bigger than 3 times the diameter of your pipes):
     present pipes                       I     I     I
     new angle connection          \     I    /
     new pipes                             \  I  /
     new "funnel"           V
     
     
    You should be able to get all the parts wherever they sell PVC pipe (Lowes, Home Depot or a good hardware store)


    Turns out 6star was right! After a long talk with the HD who was looking at the picture as we spoke on the phone they want me to make it just the way you listed above.  No IF &'s or Butts that is the way it has to be. The pic below is how they want it, basically the same as 6star suggested. The horizontal pipe needs to go bye bye.



    Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts, I do appreciate it. Stay tuned....


    OH yeah, I forgot this-----
    rootsman

    Why the need for an air gap on a HDC or any trailer?  There is no chance of sewage back-up while stationary, and you'd get a big spill when your not.

    Sounds funny to me.



    Her exact words were " things happen and if you have lets say a waste tank of what ever size and you forget to empty it out and you keep dumping into it we would prefer the waste spill out on the bottom or to the street rather than it backing up into the 3 compartment sink where you may be sanitizing items. Don't want it to happen either way but if it does happen this is the lessor of two evils."

    Case closed. Each state has there own rules ya know....Thanks to you all.



    post edited by greedyface - 2009/03/20 15:16:05
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    konnie
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/20 21:20:38 (permalink)
    Boy I'm glad I don't live in Maryland.  Sounds like your bureaucrats are like those in Washington DC.  There they have a sign on their doors that says "Please leave your Common Sense Outside before entering."  LOL.

    Mike S.
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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/21 07:07:06 (permalink)
    greedyface,
    I'm sure your HD Ins doesn't know what he's doing here.  His brain is totally disconnected.

    First off your waste system does not need an "additional" air-gap. ....It is not directly connected to a sewer system and there is not way raw sewage can backup into the sinks.  I'm sure without the air-gap, you meet HD requirements and Pluimbing codes. But, you need a copy of the HD requirements for commercial kitchens and plumbing codes for you state if you argue this with him.    ...This is where Engineere and Designers make their money. I've won every arguement with an HD Ins or Building Ins just by showing him the correct code or code section.

    Here is links to the PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE for these connections. (these are the only ones I can easliy find online to show what connection are allowed)

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996haR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hbR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hcR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hdR.html

    Your state HD will have the same or similar connection details.

    Links 1 & 4 both show direct connected sinks or equipment and the air-gap provide by a floor drain located within 4 ft and on the the same sewer drain line.  ............Your cart and waste system would fall under this type of connection and condition.  The drain line from your waste holding tank is your air-gap.

    Good luck! ......water will just drain on the ground every time you used the sinks.
    post edited by edwmax - 2009/03/21 07:29:56
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    edwmax
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/21 07:21:37 (permalink)
    konnie

    Boy I'm glad I don't live in Maryland.  Sounds like your bureaucrats are like those in Washington DC.  There they have a sign on their doors that says "Please leave your Common Sense Outside before entering."  LOL.

    Mike S.


    I think most State HD require these type of connections in new commerical construction.   Just some HD Ins and Building Ins do not know how to use them.
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    That'sMyDawg
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    Re:Told you guys I would ask for help when I needed it. Well, I need it! 2009/03/21 08:29:03 (permalink)
    konnie

    Boy I'm glad I don't live in Maryland.  Sounds like your bureaucrats are like those in Washington DC.  There they have a sign on their doors that says "Please leave your Common Sense Outside before entering."  LOL.

    Mike S.


    now, now be nice lol.


    edwmax
    greedyface,
    I'm sure your HD Ins doesn't know what he's doing here.  His brain is totally disconnected.

    First off your waste system does not need an "additional" air-gap. ....It is not directly connected to a sewer system and there is not way raw sewage can backup into the sinks.  I'm sure without the air-gap, you meet HD requirements and Pluimbing codes. But, you need a copy of the HD requirements for commercial kitchens and plumbing codes for you state if you argue this with him.    ...This is where Engineere and Designers make their money. I've won every arguement with an HD Ins or Building Ins just by showing him the correct code or code section.

    Here is links to the PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE for these connections. (these are the only ones I can easliy find online to show what connection are allowed)

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996haR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hbR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hcR.html

    http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996hdR.html

    Your state HD will have the same or similar connection details.

    Links 1 & 4 both show direct connected sinks or equipment and the air-gap provide by a floor drain located within 4 ft and on the the same sewer drain line.  ............Your cart and waste system would fall under this type of connection and condition.  The drain line from your waste holding tank is your air-gap.

    Good luck! ......water will just drain on the ground every time you used the sinks.



    I hear ya buddy but they have been really nice to be and really very helpful with info - how to's and ideas so to change this one thing is not that bad to me. I am gonna have to deal with these guys for many years and am already talking to them about getting other things rolling so I am just going with the program. They really have answered all my questions (boy did I have a lot!) but beyond that have been really, really nice and pro's from day one. I call them so much that they know my voice when they pick up the phone!
    Just yesterday when I called (have direct line) and they answered I just started talking  ME " Hello there, enjoy your day off? THEM " oh yeah, I loved it" Me Now its almost the weekend so more time off lol" THEM yeah I know" ME "Bet you are wondering who you are talking to huh lol?" THEM "nope, I know who this is! " ME OMG you now know my voice ha ha"? THEM yeah I know your voice lol"

    I think it could be worse so I will do what they ask. I will just make sure I have a wide enough flange for the catch and have it come up far enough from the ground. I have decided to install a rubber "plug" or cap at the air gap when moving so when on the go there will be no water splash. Cap on, cap off.

    Have a good weekend guys, time to take the girls to track pratice!

    Thanks to everynes thoughts & help.


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