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 Insulation behind high heat equipment

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DWags541

  • Total Posts: 174
  • Joined: 2/25/2012
  • Location: Eugene, OR
Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 3:16 AM (permalink)
Hey all,
I was just wondering to what lengths anyone has gone to use different insulation in the walls behind their cooking equipment. In a food truck, there is little space to waste in the wall, and obviously light weight is a plus. I am thinking of using something like pink board in the spaces away from my cooking equipment for insulating walls but interested in seeing what is out there for application specifically near high heat environments behind Stainless Flashing.
Would appreciate any input.
 
Dave
 
#1
    Bistro a go-go

    • Total Posts: 171
    • Joined: 2/22/2012
    • Location: Columbus, GA
    Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 9:38 AM (permalink)
    i always use tile backer board behind the hot stuff. its also what hood installers use when hanging hoods. its fire rated and may save outside paint or wrap incase of fire inside. not much 'r' value but thats not whats important here. others may chime in with something different.
     
    #2
      Bistro a go-go

      • Total Posts: 171
      • Joined: 2/22/2012
      • Location: Columbus, GA
      Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 9:38 AM (permalink)
      i always use tile backer board behind the hot stuff. its also what hood installers use when hanging hoods. its fire rated and may save outside paint or wrap incase of fire inside. not much 'r' value but thats not whats important here. others may chime in with something different.
       
      #3
        edwmax

        • Total Posts: 2015
        • Joined: 1/1/2007
        • Location: Cairo, GA
        Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 10:06 AM (permalink)
        The materials use constructing the wall will determine the separation distance required between the wall & back of the cooking equipment.    In mobile food units, space is a premium and this distance is a minimum.   Then under Mechanical, Fire, or  Gas/Electrical Codes the wall construction is required to be 'non-combustible'.       This reference from HD of Minnesota (another thread) demonstrates this requirement.  Check your state Codes.  http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/food/license/summary.html  ... download and look at page 28 of the 'Food Service Construction Guide'
         
        There are a couple of threads that already discuss this problem and members have stated their use of plywood covered by metal (SS) sheet.   Be aware, wood will char if held at a constant temperature of 200 deg F; and a 1906 building fire was proven to have started from the constant contact of 170 deg F water pipe causing auto-combustion of the wood stud.
         
         
        #4
          Dr of BBQ

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          Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 10:56 AM (permalink)
          Tile backer board, is called cement board by professionals in the industry. Brands like Armoroc, and Durloc are common. And it's mostly fireproof.
           
          But Edwnmax a report of a fire in 1906 come on?
           
          It's (cement board) approved for kitchens in most any state fire code and often covered with SS or other non porous metal. But I would insulate behind it if I were using it. If you read the other threads (3 or 4 multi post threads) here on this topic the temps at your filters and at your fan, are much lower than anyone would think.
           
          But why do you keep double posting?
           
          #5
            Bistro a go-go

            • Total Posts: 171
            • Joined: 2/22/2012
            • Location: Columbus, GA
            Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 12:14 PM (permalink)
            its maybe a glitch on my computer, i assure you its not intentional. i think my mouse may be going bad,...sorry for all the dbl posts.
            also ordinary sheet rock has a 2 hr burn through and can be used as minimal insulation (r value is under 5) and as fire deterent but i ALWAYS used tile backer or durrock. ive done a dozen or more hoods for friends and myself.
            <message edited by Bistro a go-go on Sun, 03/18/12 12:18 PM>
             
            #6
              edwmax

              • Total Posts: 2015
              • Joined: 1/1/2007
              • Location: Cairo, GA
              Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 1:40 PM (permalink)
              I don’t know why I remember the 1906 date, the following is from a paper by Dr. Vytenis Babrauskas:  ‘Pyrophoric Carbon’ and Long-term, Low-temperature Ignition of Wood
              [url] http://www.google.com/url...-JwZKOh0OnCMup6VzRQl5A[/url]
               

                …. Around 1900, fires started being reported with steam or hot-water heating pipes where the pipes had been passed
              through wood members. Ignitions were being observed typically 3 months to 15 years after installation4,5. The
              installations typically involved hot-water or low-pressure steam, where temperatures should be not much over
              100°C (212°F).     ………….
               
              ………….    The original explanation that was proposed for these ignitions was put forth by the German scientist Ernst von Schwartz8 in 1902. Based upon a theory earlier suggested by the German scientist H. von Ranke as an explanation for haystack fires, the theory claims that low temperature, long-term heating of wood converts the wood to “pyrophoric carbon,” and that this pyrophoric carbon is much more readily ignitable than is virgin wood.
               
              ……….  In terms of safe design and safe practices for the installation of heat-producing devices adjacent to wood surfaces, it
              should not be a new or surprising piece of information that 250ºC would represent an extremely hazardous condition
              and that 77ºC, ([<font]170ºF) in fact, must not be exceeded if the heating is prolonged. Already in 1959 UL17 issued this
              recommendation: “As a limitation on the temperature to which wood may be heated for long periods of time from a
              standpoint of fire prevention, many authorities indicate that 90ºF above room temperature (approximately 80ºF)
              normally prevailing in habitable spaces is a safe maximum and one which incorporates a reasonable margin of
              safety.” Since 80 + 90 = 170ºF, the temperature cited in the 1959 UL recommendation is identical to the one derived
              in the present study.  ….

               
              Also, noted in the papers is the UL recommendation of 90deg F + (ie. 170 deg F) as a ‘safe maximum’ is questionable. There is no factor of safety and that a fire is possible
              <message edited by edwmax on Sun, 03/18/12 2:20 PM>
               
              #7
                edwmax

                • Total Posts: 2015
                • Joined: 1/1/2007
                • Location: Cairo, GA
                Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 2:01 PM (permalink)
                Bistro a go-go


                ....
                also ordinary sheet rock has a 2 hr burn through and can be used as minimal insulation (r value is under 5) and as fire deterent but i ALWAYS used tile backer or durrock. ive done a dozen or more hoods for friends and myself.

                 
                Do you think the rest of your kitchen would still be there after 30 min of full fire?   ... Fire rating (2 hr) is not a controlling factor. What you are dealing with in the wall situation is conductive & radiated heat in which wood or other combustible material can start smoldering inside the wall without you knowing it. If the wall surface is 170 - 200 deg F, then there is a problem if conductive & radiated heat is not stopped.   Most Codes require a heat shield & air gap, in front of the wall, if combustible materials are in the wall and clearance less than Code specified is provided.
                 
                The difference between Commercial cooking equipment & Residential cooking equipment (other than heat output) is that Residential equipment is design to be close to combustible walls of a residence.   Residential equipment is insulated; Commercial equipment is not and clearance  distance of commercial equipment from the wall to back of equipment is specified as 12" (+/-) by the manufactures.  And, their warranties & liabilities are voided if the clearance is not provided.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                <message edited by edwmax on Sun, 03/18/12 2:25 PM>
                 
                #8
                  DWags541

                  • Total Posts: 174
                  • Joined: 2/25/2012
                  • Location: Eugene, OR
                  Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 4:02 PM (permalink)
                  Any issues with this cement board holding up under the vibrations of a mobile unit?
                  Cement board will be a bit heavier than the more combustible insulation, but I guess if the application is more focused and minimal, so it the additional weight.
                   
                  #9
                    mofood

                    • Total Posts: 117
                    • Joined: 10/12/2011
                    • Location: SLC, UT
                    Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 7:44 PM (permalink)
                    I was wondering the same thing Dwags. Having used it in brick and mortar applications myself, I wonder how it would fare over the long haul in a mobile app. It would probably be ok.

                    My fire Marshall told me my setup was adequate. 24g s/s over 1/4" ply behind my cooking surfaces. 1"pink board between exterior and interior walls.
                    But it should be noted that I will have fire suppression as well.
                     
                    #10
                      Bistro a go-go

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                      • Joined: 2/22/2012
                      • Location: Columbus, GA
                      Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 7:49 PM (permalink)
                      12" clearance????
                       
                      #11
                        Bistro a go-go

                        • Total Posts: 171
                        • Joined: 2/22/2012
                        • Location: Columbus, GA
                        Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 7:49 PM (permalink)
                        12" clearance????
                         
                        #12
                          edwmax

                          • Total Posts: 2015
                          • Joined: 1/1/2007
                          • Location: Cairo, GA
                          Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Sun, 03/18/12 11:20 PM (permalink)
                          Bistro a go-go


                          12" clearance????

                           
                          Check the Manufacture & equipment model for required clearance.
                          Southbend  => 6 to 10" to combustible wall
                          Imperial => 8" to combustible wall
                          Viking & Wolf; both makes Pro Equipment for residential use with 0" clearance to combustible wall; and have a min. clearance above the cook top of 36" to 42".
                           
                          #13
                            Dr of BBQ

                            • Total Posts: 3716
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                            • Roadfood Insider
                            Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 1:54 AM (permalink)
                            I have to say I have never had anyone worry about back clearance with SS on the wall. And again there are at least two threads here that have measured the heat at grill height and at the filters and it's just not that hot. Go to the top of the page and do a search. Every engineer wants everything to be built like a bridge.
                             
                            Before you run amok and spend more time, money, and work than necessary do an internet search for a phone number or two,and talk to a company that builds food trucks. Ask them about the builds they do and then get specific and ask about your concerns with fire safety in the wall behind the grills etc.
                            jack
                             
                            #14
                              PurpleCheetah

                              • Total Posts: 151
                              • Joined: 7/27/2011
                              • Location: Cincinnati, OH
                              Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 2:49 PM (permalink)
                              mofood


                              I was wondering the same thing Dwags. Having used it in brick and mortar applications myself, I wonder how it would fare over the long haul in a mobile app. It would probably be ok.

                              My fire Marshall told me my setup was adequate. 24g s/s over 1/4" ply behind my cooking surfaces. 1"pink board between exterior and interior walls.
                              But it should be noted that I will have fire suppression as well.

                              mo how much distance do you plan to put between your hot equip. and your wall? (front to back)
                               
                              #15
                                chefbuba

                                • Total Posts: 1954
                                • Joined: 6/22/2009
                                • Location: Near You, WA
                                Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 3:24 PM (permalink)
                                I just measured my equipment ......6" clearance across the line.
                                 
                                #16
                                  mofood

                                  • Total Posts: 117
                                  • Joined: 10/12/2011
                                  • Location: SLC, UT
                                  Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 3:56 PM (permalink)
                                  I will have limited space behind the equipment. My hood requires a max 4" underhang (low proximity backshelf).
                                  A 36" flat top I'm looking at is 25 7/8" deep with a flue riser. I could have as much as 6" clearance by hood requirements. That's counting only the cooking surface. There's no way I want my appliances sticking out that far!
                                  The specs on the griddle don't say anything about clearance. I don't know if it's a zero clearance unit, doubt it.
                                  With a 4" flue riser (think stainless backsplash, and sidesplash around cooking surface), and a stainless sheeted wall, I'm not expecting any hassle with clearance for my gas line hook up only.
                                   
                                  So to answer the question, nearly zero clearance. If I get hassled, I'll slide them out for the inspection, then, back in..
                                   
                                  #17
                                    chefbuba

                                    • Total Posts: 1954
                                    • Joined: 6/22/2009
                                    • Location: Near You, WA
                                    Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 4:46 PM (permalink)
                                    Just checked the temperature behind the line 101* after 45 minutes.
                                     
                                    #18
                                      PurpleCheetah

                                      • Total Posts: 151
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                                      Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Mon, 03/19/12 9:39 PM (permalink)
                                      Thank you ChefB and mo I was thinking the same thing 6" if needed for inspection and then slide back if I have to.
                                       
                                      #19
                                        edwmax

                                        • Total Posts: 2015
                                        • Joined: 1/1/2007
                                        • Location: Cairo, GA
                                        Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Tue, 03/20/12 7:53 AM (permalink)
                                        Just build the wall behind the cooking line per the 'NON-combustible' details.  Use mineral wool insulation between the 'metal' studs; add 'metal' stiffeners horizontally, if needed, flush with the studs or as a spacer to flush the SS sheet to the finished wall.  ... Then the required Clearance would be '0'.   
                                         
                                        #20
                                          mofood

                                          • Total Posts: 117
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                                          • Location: SLC, UT
                                          Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Tue, 03/20/12 10:19 AM (permalink)
                                          Edwmax, I think that's a good point. I didn't build that way, but in retrospect, I would've considered it. Live and learn..
                                           
                                          #21
                                            PurpleCheetah

                                            • Total Posts: 151
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                                            • Location: Cincinnati, OH
                                            Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Wed, 03/21/12 5:53 PM (permalink)
                                            edwmax


                                            Just build the wall behind the cooking line per the 'NON-combustible' details.  Use mineral wool insulation between the 'metal' studs; add 'metal' stiffeners horizontally, if needed, flush with the studs or as a spacer to flush the SS sheet to the finished wall.  ... Then the required Clearance would be '0'.   
                                            So no wood behind hot equip. then?

                                             
                                            #22
                                              edwmax

                                              • Total Posts: 2015
                                              • Joined: 1/1/2007
                                              • Location: Cairo, GA
                                              Re:Insulation behind high heat equipment Wed, 03/21/12 6:30 PM (permalink)
                                              PurpleCheetah


                                              edwmax


                                              Just build the wall behind the cooking line per the 'NON-combustible' details.  Use mineral wool insulation between the 'metal' studs; add 'metal' stiffeners horizontally, if needed, flush with the studs or as a spacer to flush the SS sheet to the finished wall.  ... Then the required Clearance would be '0'.   
                                              So no wood behind hot equip. then?

                                               
                                              That is what the Minnesota HD guide detail states above and the detail is the same for many other State HDs & Codes.   The problem is not hard or costly the solve.
                                               
                                              #23
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