virginia tech shooter and mental health treatment

Of course, this was a horrible thing and my heart goes out to everyone involved. But it has brought an issue that scares the hell out of me - people seem to think it needs to be "easier" to "force" someone into "receiving" mental health treatment.
First of all, you can't force anybody into mental health treatment. Despite what people commonly think, it isn't a passive activity - to improve the patient has to work really hard, the therapist can only assist. But more than that do we really want other people deciding for us when our behavior is unacceptable?
In the Virginia Tech case, I think the school had sufficent reason for expelling him for "unethical or unsavory behavior." But other than a 72 hour hold when he was demonstrating suicidal or homicidial behavior they couldn't force him to seek treatment.

Some schools are now so worried about the inability to "force" someone to remain in treatment that they expell students who seek mental health treatment for depression or who report suicidal feelings. (This is due to lawsuits that have resulted when depressed college students have committed suicide on campus.)

I don't think people realize how potentially dangerous the desire is to "protect people from themselves." I wonder what others thought.

Since I work in the field of psychology, I can say that this is a way difficult issue. The NYTimes did a good piece on this and the complexities of legal and psychological issues involved.

Briefly, you can't force anyone to get counseling/therapy, at least in the "real" sense. The pt. has to cooperate in some way, since it's basically a verbal treatment. Though I enjoyed how Denzel Washington worked it out in the movie Antoine Fisher. Sometimes people can be "mandated" into psychotherapy tx. but that doesn't mean it will help. Serious mental illness (psychoses, etc) don't really respond to talk therapy anyway.

Of course it may be possible for force someone to take medication (by forcibly restraining them and shooting them full of drugs) but that is a very complicated legal issue. Many of the drugs just last for a few hours anyway, although there are a few that are longer lasting. This issue is being played out in some states in the US where there have been incidents.

Also, which "diagnoses" should be forced to take meds? Who decides?

Very complicated.

My question is, what about the time before he went to college? Obviously he'd had problems a long time, possibly even going back to before the family came to the USA. My read is that by the time he arrived on the V Tech campus it was just a matter of "when"; all I see points to this being inevitable, whether it was at V Tech, or a shopping mall or a McDonalds or an airport.

The true sadness of it is when I read about the students; my anger at the shooter rises when I read and hear him ranting about perversion, and avarice, and selfishness; if he had taken the time to know any of his class mates.... but what the hell. That couldn't happen. This kid was just way too broken to be fixed.


Tom

Tom: I agree, this problem has been brewing for years. I'm sure the shooter's mental illness has been going on pre-college. And I in no way "support" the situation, but I am thinking (because I teach in a university) that there are some issues about "wealthy" students vs. "working class" students on campuses (at least if this is part of the issue in the rantings of this guy). There is a divide between parents work work very hard to send their children to college (and often expect a lot of them) and students who feel "entitled" and are "given" college by their parents just like another commodity.

I'm not saying this is totally the case here in the VA situation, I'm not sure, but I do think there is a point. It's a complicated campus issue about haves/have nots/maybe haves. When students go to in college there may be a bigger mix than in college, they are really faced with the "wealth" issue. Even if the poorer students work hard, they may never have the luxuries that many of their classmates are born with.

Just an opinion.....

Someone needed to have been proactive in this situation. This disturbed young man was GOOD w/ a handgun. A Glock is not the choice of a total nut case. He was at a range every once in a while.

There are many on this site that could probably do more damage and have the weapons to do so but...to put it gently...are a bit more balanced. On the other side...little liquid ammonia, some dry fertlizer and a basic blasting cap...very BIG boom.

The range I frequent had a person we reported to BATF because he kept asking people how to make certain weapons fully automatic. He also made certain remarkes about Latinos. He is now a guest of the Atlanta Federal Prison (and I hope he stays there a VERY long time).

I think our nation has a bedrock of wonderful concepts, I am a member of the ACLU AND am a life member of the NRA...maybe the only one to share those two distinctions but disturbted folks neeed our help.

I will now step off the soap box.

quote:

Originally posted by V960

Someone needed to have been proactive in this situation. This disturbed young man was GOOD w/ a handgun. A Glock is not the choice of a total nut case. He was at a range every once in a while.

There are many on this site that could probably do more damage and have the weapons to do so but...to put it gently...are a bit more balanced. On the other side...little liquid ammonia, some dry fertlizer and a basic blasting cap...very BIG boom.

The range I frequent had a person we reported to BATF because he kept asking people how to make certain weapons fully automatic. He also made certain remarkes about Latinos. He is now a guest of the Atlanta Federal Prison (and I hope he stays there a VERY long time).

I think our nation has a bedrock of wonderful concepts, I am a member of the ACLU AND am a life member of the NRA...maybe the only one to share those two distinctions but disturbted folks neeed our help.

I will now step off the soap box.

Actually, a number of people share those two distinctions (ACLU and NRA) - and I know one (not me - I don't belong to either).

I hate guns - hate em. But the genie is way out of the bottle and there's no putting it back now. There are hundreds of millions of firearms in this country and another psychopath is probably born every hour who will someday try to gun someone down (30,000 gun murders a year in the U.S.).

There has to be a way (besides the utterly impractical option of confiscating every gun in the country, which like the NRA says would ensure that only criminals have guns) to keep these maniacs from obtaining such weapons (and the ammunition). Since you're an NRA member, whom I assume believes in the universal right for people to buy and sell guns - including the kind designed to kill large numbers of people in minutes - I'd love to hear if you have any practical thoughts on how to keep people like the Blacksburg killer from endangering others.

And please don't propose allowing concealed weapons in all public places. That would make me feel far less safe, knowing that any argument or perceived transgression could end up getting me killed. Maybe you enjoy the vision of having every kid in every college class packing a weapon just in case a Cho walks in, but to me it sounds like the Wild West, not a civilized society.

Hello All,
I live in Virginia.
My daughter graduated from high school in 2005 and
13 of her classmates were at Virginia Tech when this
tragedy happened. Luckily, none of her mates were harmed,
but 2 people from our county were wounded.
We, all, have been harmed by this event, this terrible
place where one troubled soul has paraded us into a
un-natural dance with death.
This young man was ill. For some reason, his illness
went ignored, though many people had detected it.
His illness was not treated. His illness harmed
himself for years, and then it exploded and destroyed
the lives of so many, so countless many.
His instruments of destruction toward others were 2 guns
and the bullets within them.
He could have used a car, a knife, a home-made bomb, or
who knows what else.
I am not a member of the ACLU or the NRA. I know people
who are members of those organizations, and this tragedy
should not become a place where groups can make political
points for special agendas. And I don't believe anyone
here is trying to do that. Okay? Understand?
Frankly, I am not sure what this tragedy can teach the general
society. We are so focused on making money, being righteous
to the point that we emotionally exile and hide from people that
aren't like us or don't conform to the image we worship, and
yet we allow the cut backs on our mental health budgets to the point that our mental health workers can barely function in the stressed system that we
allow to be. It is no wonder that this young man was not treated, though he was
detected. Do not get me wrong. All of us have been cursed because of his illness.
Some would say he is evil. I reserve that judgment for that which is greater than I.
But mental health is important and we as a society have neglected it for decades.
Oh, we go through some kind of medicine show, offering Ophrah and Dr. Phil cures,
but true mental health is more than this narcissist parade of the problem of the month.
True mental health problem require in-depth, costly care.
I am not a gun lover or hater. This man use a gun to express pain and hatred.
Some use their tongues, but I wouldn't propose cutting out the tongues of people
in pain and hatred. Nor would I propose a monitoring group to watch over our
mental health.
The system broke when others around him didn't feel compassion for this troubled
man, didn't care to talk to him when he wouldn't talk back to them, ...just let
him be and fester.
He was wrong...we, society's response to his illness, was wrong.
Guns wasn't his right answer and it is not ours now. Talk of eliminating firearms is just silly.
It makes me weary...we have done this talk too many times in the history of humankind.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

I am a gun owner. As a matter of fact I have about 30 firearms of one sort or another. I am divesting all of them except maybe one or two. Too much stress plus I have two male grandchildren ages 4 and 6 and I do not want them around the guns.

I have had guns for many years and I never fire them. My dad left me several of them when he died and I bought more. I am not sure why. I have never had need to use them and they are a waste of resources. I am getting rid of them.

Besides that, they hurt my ears.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

quote:

Originally posted by Fieldthistle

Hello All,
I live in Virginia.
My daughter graduated from high school in 2005 and
13 of her classmates were at Virginia Tech when this
tragedy happened. Luckily, none of her mates were harmed,
but 2 people from our county were wounded.
We, all, have been harmed by this event, this terrible
place where one troubled soul has paraded us into a
un-natural dance with death.
This young man was ill. For some reason, his illness
went ignored, though many people had detected it.
His illness was not treated. His illness harmed
himself for years, and then it exploded and destroyed
the lives of so many, so countless many.
His instruments of destruction toward others were 2 guns
and the bullets within them.
He could have used a car, a knife, a home-made bomb, or
who knows what else.
I am not a member of the ACLU or the NRA. I know people
who are members of those organizations, and this tragedy
should not become a place where groups can make political
points for special agendas. And I don't believe anyone
here is trying to do that. Okay? Understand?
Frankly, I am not sure what this tragedy can teach the general
society. We are so focused on making money, being righteous
to the point that we emotionally exile and hide from people that
aren't like us or don't conform to the image we worship, and
yet we allow the cut backs on our mental health budgets to the point that our mental health workers can barely function in the stressed system that we
allow to be. It is no wonder that this young man was not treated, though he was
detected. Do not get me wrong. All of us have been cursed because of his illness.
Some would say he is evil. I reserve that judgment for that which is greater than I.
But mental health is important and we as a society have neglected it for decades.
Oh, we go through some kind of medicine show, offering Ophrah and Dr. Phil cures,
but true mental health is more than this narcissist parade of the problem of the month.
True mental health problem require in-depth, costly care.
I am not a gun lover or hater. This man use a gun to express pain and hatred.
Some use their tongues, but I wouldn't propose cutting out the tongues of people
in pain and hatred. Nor would I propose a monitoring group to watch over our
mental health.
The system broke when others around him didn't feel compassion for this troubled
man, didn't care to talk to him when he wouldn't talk back to them, ...just let
him be and fester.
He was wrong...we, society's response to his illness, was wrong.
Guns wasn't his right answer and it is not ours now. Talk of eliminating firearms is just silly.
It makes me weary...we have done this talk too many times in the history of humankind.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

Not a fair comparison at all.

I've never heard of someone using their tongue to take the lives of more than 30 people in 10 minutes.

Guns are, as Richard Nixon once said, "an abomination." If I could wave a wand and make every gun in this country disappear, I would. Easy access to guns explains why the U.S. death rate from gun violence is dozens of times higher than the rate in other "first world" countries.

Maybe you are OK with living in a shooting gallery, where no one feels safe sending their kids to school out of fear some maniac with a handgun might blow them away. That is not the society I want to live in. "Freedom" for a handful of gun lovers to exercise their so-called "rights" (and the Supreme Court long ago ruled that the Second Amendment gives no one the right to individual firearm ownership) shouldn't come at the cost of everyone else's freedom to live without fear.

Hello All,
Danimal15, I have no desire to make this an argument over guns. I do not use guns. I have
an old Springfield 22 that I inherited from my father and keep it in honour of his memory.
I am more concerned about mental health. We have neglected mental health, or rather,
perhaps, bad mental health has become so epidemic that it has overwhelmed our mental health
system.
I have worked over the years with a few people that have needed some mental health help,
but our society often waits until a problem or tragedy occurs before dealing with
mental health. Mental health budgets have been slashed to the bone in most states and localities,
and places such as religious organizations, civic groups, and even many businesses do not have
a way to help those they see in need of mental health help.
I, wholeheartedly, agree that we all need to live without fear.
My original comments were badly worded.
Take Care,
Fieldthistle

Fieldthistle: You are very correct about mental health budgets being super slashed. Directly across the river from my house onced housed Eastern State Mental Hospital. When we moved to this location in 1964, there were 5000 patients. Today there are none as the institution is closed as all others in the state. Those expatients are probably the homeless folks in downtown knoxville and other places.

The first summer when we moved here, there were three suicides in the lake. I found one of them. Today the institution is a plethora of soccer fields, softball fields, baseball fields and a walking park. A beautiful place although.

Paul E. Smith
Knoxville, TN

I believe that we have become over-protective of "individual" rights relegating collective rights and public saftey second. Somehow it's OK for some individual who is not in control of himself to wander the streets of a community threatening passers-by, or bashing some unsuspecting woman on the head with a rock. NYC is full of these kids of stories, but somehow we dare not restrict this obviously sick person's "individual" rights. In an excellent column in the New York Post it was pointed out that while some professors and classmates shared concerns about Mr. Cho, the university felt it couldn't act, in fear of compromising his "individual" rights. However, had he gone around uttering racial slurs instead of writing violent & frightening prose, the entire weight of the university system would have been brought to bear on his "individual" rights!
Sad, but indeed true.

quote:

Originally posted by danimal15
Since you're an NRA member, whom I assume believes in the universal right for people to buy and sell guns - including the kind designed to kill large numbers of people in minutes - I'd love to hear if you have any practical thoughts on how to keep people like the Blacksburg killer from endangering others.

Not a good assumption. I do not think the Second Amendment gives universal gun ownership rights anymore than the First Amendment gives someone to shout "FIRE" in a crowded theatre.

Mr. Cho would have been prevented from buying those guns legally (I would bet he would have still gotten them however) if he had been commited instead of being put in an out patient program by the judge. The judge made a judgement call and in this case was wrong but he probably has to make the same kind of ruling 8-12 times a day.

As another poster aluded to many of the homeless should be in the hospital not sleeping in the park. Mr. Cho seems to have been a train wreck lookinng for a place to happen. Virginia Tech fearing legal problems seems to have bet he would float through the system w/o harming himself or others...thirty three Va Tech student died on the bet.

I don't like guns and so I don't own one, but it would be terrifying to have that right taken away. Was it in Australia several years ago that they got rid of the righ to own a gun and the crime rate went up?? I know i'm not crazy so I know it happened. I am tempted to buy one for my protection since my hubby travels a lot, but with two young children I would die if an accident were to occur all because I forgot to lock up the gun in the morning. I really see no point in owning a gun if you're going to put it up in a locked box in your closet with no ammunition. At 2am when the burglar or rapist is in your room, he ain't gonna wait for you to get it! we just need better laws on who is going to buy a gun and who's going to sell 'em.

quote:

Originally posted by NYNM

Tom: I agree, this problem has been brewing for years. I'm sure the shooter's mental illness has been going on pre-college. And I in no way "support" the situation, but I am thinking (because I teach in a university) that there are some issues about "wealthy" students vs. "working class" students on campuses (at least if this is part of the issue in the rantings of this guy). There is a divide between parents work work very hard to send their children to college (and often expect a lot of them) and students who feel "entitled" and are "given" college by their parents just like another commodity.

I'm not saying this is totally the case here in the VA situation, I'm not sure, but I do think there is a point. It's a complicated campus issue about haves/have nots/maybe haves. When students go to in college there may be a bigger mix than in college, they are really faced with the "wealth" issue. Even if the poorer students work hard, they may never have the luxuries that many of their classmates are born with.

Just an opinion.....

There was a time when a desire to make more of yourself or attain success inspired hard work...now it seems to be an excuse for feeling disenfranchised and lashing out at the world.

People, especially many young people, want things, but in many cases are too lazy to work for them. They just "expect" them. When they don't get what they want or "deserve" they get angry and blame the world for their failure. Preying upon this mindset is how many hate groups recruit members. They'll tell people what they want to hear...it isn't your fault, it is the rich guys fault, or that certain ethnic groups fault, or the fault of women, or gays, or whomever...just not YOUR fault.

Kids like this murderer arise from this. He seemed to come from a decent home, went to a nice school, was at a good college...what was so tough about his life? It almost seems as if it is becoming acceptable to strike out in violence because your mom didn't love you, or your parents were too busy, or some kid is better at sports or has more friends than you. There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. If the kid is mentally ill, he should have been treated, but if this is all borne out of a resentment because people had more money/friends/success than him, it is a pretty sad commentary on the direction our young people are headed and making ANY excuses for such behavior isn't helping.

NYNM...as I read this it sounds as if I think YOU are making excuses...that isn't what I mean...I have just heard this issue of kids feeling left out brought up in so many of these cases. This is a general comment...not directed at you.

NYNM...as I read this it sounds as if I think YOU are making excuses...that isn't what I mean...I have just heard this issue of kids feeling left out brought up in so many of these cases. This is a general comment...not directed at you.



T: I wanted to reply in some way - you got me thinking here.
I think we are saying the same thing. About narcissism and entitlement. I agree that many (more than on the past probably) kids have this issue (aren't these the kids who got "better self-esteem" "all are special and all must get a prize"). However, I still content that there may be some kids owho rather than feel entitled, feel "less than", perhaps kids of immigrants or others who were raised in a different, less narcissistic environment and now come head to head with the entitled kids and are confused, even resentful.

Now that's not to say which group this Virginia Tech kid is in, its not easy to tell. It's not an excuse,just a thought. I read some article that said, also, that people who work around chemicals used for dry cleaningare more likely to become "psychotic" from these chemicals....interesting, since his parents owned some dry cleaners.

Anyway, I think this "headline story" of VT is moving back to "another" gory story, or soon will. "What is our world coming to?" (Do you have to be over 40 to say that?)

quote:

Originally posted by NYNM

T: I wanted to reply in some way - you got me thinking here.
I think we are saying the same thing. About narcissism and entitlement. I agree that many (more than on the past probably) kids have this issue (aren't these the kids who got "better self-esteem" "all are special and all must get a prize").

I do understand what you mean...and the part I quoted above really got me thinking. We work so hard today to make young kids feel they are all equal and "winners" and deserving of a prize regardless of whether they win or lose. Perhaps when the realities of life finally hit them, this coddling at a young age leaves them unprepared to deal with the fact that not everyone has or is entitled to the same things...that you don't "win" every time you play. It is similar to raising a wild animal in captivity, shielding it from the realities of life...harsh as they may be at times...and then turning that animal loose in the wild and expecting it to thrive.

I just worry that trying to explain or rationalize such behavior almost gives people more of an excuse to act with such violence.

quote:

Originally posted by danimal15

"Freedom" for a handful of gun lovers to exercise their so-called "rights" (and the Supreme Court long ago ruled that the Second Amendment gives no one the right to individual firearm ownership) shouldn't come at the cost of everyone else's freedom to live without fear.

your statement appears to suggest that the supreme court has ruled against an individuals right to gun ownership being protected by the 2nd amendment. this, imo, is a twist of their ruling on this issue. i believe they ruled that the right to own a gun preceded the constitution and therefore any denial of gun owenrship affected by individuals was a state matter and not a constitutional matter for them to consider.

can you cite your source for your statement about the supreme court please. i may have missed the ruling and would be interested in reading more.

The latest is they are trying to pass laws to make it easier to release college students' mental health records to their parents. This is exactly the kind of problem I was talking about. Hello? If they are over 18, they are adults.They have the right to privacy, just like every other adult. I left home when I was 17 and paid for every penny of my college and graduate education. My medical records were private and none of my parents business once I turned 18, including any mental health records.

I don't think they'll be able to pass this law, but it just shows that people lose their common sense when they get overprotective.

quote:

Originally posted by ernieson

The latest is they are trying to pass laws to make it easier to release college students' mental health records to their parents. This is exactly the kind of problem I was talking about. Hello? If they are over 18, they are adults.They have the right to privacy, just like every other adult. I left home when I was 17 and paid for every penny of my college and graduate education. My medical records were private and none of my parents business once I turned 18, including any mental health records.

I don't think they'll be able to pass this law, but it just shows that people lose their common sense when they get overprotective.

Oh I agree. You might have burned cats while hanging them but that is YOUR private business. You might have cut the throat of a small dog just to watch them thrash about. Privacy is one thing but safety of the others about you is a bit more important.

Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. I don't want people torturing animals and those who do (as adults) need to be dealt with by the criminal justice system, not the mental health system. I think that once we start meddling in peoples' lives to prevent rare occurences like the VT shooting, we are causing more damage than we are preventing. I would estimate something like 10-15% of college students are depressed or should be receiving treatment for depressive symptoms. If we are going to monitor them all, make them wear a big red D on their sweatshirts, tell their parents, teacher and peers "watch out for this kid, he's nuts," - don't you think that is going to damage a lot of lives? And it still can't prevent one of those kids from buying a gun and shooting people...

When you consider it we have three options.

1) keep it the way it is...not a bad option. We trade a few deaths a year from nut cases for our persaonal liberties. Generally murders are between family members and gunshots are more efficient than a knifing. Cold blooded aren't I?

2) Take away all the guns. I don't lock step w/ the NRA but then only criminals will have guns. BTW...I would then be a criminal.

3)Improve our options and enforcement of current gun laws. I can go to a gun show and sell or purchase a weapon w/ cash and a smile. This is illegal but not enforced.